Navigation redundancy???

[JohnEasley]

Redundancy? Oh... oh... I can play on this one!

We have paper charts for our normal areas of travel. We also have a 12" Garmin chart plotter with the latest software and up-to-date maps, a Raymarine 12" C120W chart plotter, and Garmin's boating app is on our iPhone and iPad. The Garmin chart plotter and the Raymarine chart plotter have independent depth transducers and there is a standalone depth transducer readout, too. The Standard Horizon VHF has an internal GPS antenna and there is a separate GPS antenna that feeds both chart plotters. The radar is old but still functioning and is standalone. When underway, I carry a handheld VHF on my belt. The dinghy also has a Garmin chart plotter and an in-dash VHF radio.

Of course, a good lightning strike trumps the electronics but the paper charts are still useful.

What? Too much?

John

 

[psneeld]

Old school and new school here... why settle for one?

Before I crossed an ocean, I would buy a sextant and brush up.

Otherwise, a bit of redundancy is OK, most posting here are way overboard with fearmongering of having way more in depth redundancy than is really needed.....especially with the limited cruising most of us do with the ability to tre-equip before pressing on.

Survival skills teach getting by with basics...same for navigation.

 

[kchace]

My 2 plotters and radar are all on separate circuits. I have a separate GPS receiver on the NMEA bus, if that goes down I can use the GPS built in to one of the plotters. Plotters can be swapped between upper and lower stations. If all fails I have an Ipad with all charts preloaded which is running in parallel with everything else.


Ken

 

[psneeld]

Redundancy? Oh... oh... I can play on this one!

We have paper charts for our normal areas of travel. We also have a 12" Garmin chart plotter with the latest software and up-to-date maps, a Raymarine 12" C120W chart plotter, and Garmin's boating app is on our iPhone and iPad. The Garmin chart plotter and the Raymarine chart plotter have independent depth transducers and there is a standalone depth transducer readout, too. The Standard Horizon VHF has an internal GPS antenna and there is a separate GPS antenna that feeds both chart plotters. The radar is old but still functioning and is standalone. When underway, I carry a handheld VHF on my belt. The dinghy also has a Garmin chart plotter and an in-dash VHF radio.

Of course, a good lightning strike trumps the electronics but the paper charts are still useful.

What? Too much?

John

OK...lightning strike takes out all electronics....


How many are that good at piloting or open ocean nav with paper charts and no electronic fixes?


So many self incriminations of even lifelong boaters suggest that paper charts aren't as much redundancy as table coverings for crab feasts.

 

[MurrayM]

How many are that good at piloting or open ocean nav with paper charts and no electronic fixes?

Sea kayaking, deck compass, wrist watch, paper charts in a chart bag.

 

[syjos]

Most of us that boated before the advent of Loran, GPS, AIS and chartplotters can still navigate with a compass, charts, radar and depthsounder. Take away the radar and navigation becomes more difficult.

I prefer navigating with everything working so the redundancy is essential.

I plot routes on Nobeltec, fine tune it while underway and save it after completion. I have saved every route created on Nobeltec for 25 years. I have over 1000 routes stored on the laptops and the routes are backed up on a thumb drive.

The routes are filed by geographic region to make searching easier. All I have to do is locate a route, open it and follow the route. I have separate routes for departing and returning, and current direction.

We travel the same routes most of the time so the only route creating is for cruising to a new destination. New routes are usually created by modifying a copy of an existing route or merging routes.

 

[Codger2]

I think for most of us, permanently wired redundancy is a bit over the top. Maybe for long range, blue water cruisers, but not me.

I do have 2 different transducers for depth and my VHF (2) has AIS and GPS capability but as djmarchand points out, the chart includes depth readouts and radar (IMHO) is not critical when I take the boat out. (Very nice to have but not critical.)

 

[syjos]

Radar is the third most important instrument after VHF and depthsounder and should always be turned on when the boat is moving.

By using the radar all the time in good visibility, you will become more familiar with it's operation and adjustment. You will be able to look at radar targets and identify it by eye, compare the radar to a chart and become a better radar operator.

It's better to learn to use the radar in good visibility than a stressful trial in poor visibility.

Radar can be used to see what is behind you, calculate crossing situations and as a navigation tool.

 

[psneeld]

Sea kayaking, deck compass, wrist watch, paper charts in a chart bag.

Some are good, many are worried if left to that.


Doing the ACIW with a depth Sounder, binocs, a inexpensive compass and some form of charts is really all one needs if a confident boater....much the same.

 

[MYTraveler]

Lots of redundancy, most down to circuit breaker level (though much shares a subpannel). Main navigation is run by three black boxes that can each function without network connectivity. Two radars, each on a separate BB. Multiple GPS. Multiple screens, with many screens having both a direct connection to one source device and a second connection to a matrix switch so that a matrix switch failure doesn't shut us down. One networked FF / depth finder, and one stand alone scanning sonar (that can also look straight down). 3 VHF's.
Only one AIS, but I believe it is bullet proof -- Furuno FA150, from their "Blue Water" (commercial) line.

 

[Capecodder]

https://www.skyandtelescope.com/ast...sumes-celestial-navigation-training-04042016/

 

[MurrayM]

Sea kayaking, deck compass, wrist watch, paper charts in a chart bag.

Oh...and a string for measuring distances, with knots to whatever scale the chart is. Handy for measuring a meandering course around islands, etc

 

[diver dave]

Compass, knotted line, and depth gage is exactly how i navigate in water caves. And that is 3D navigation.

 

[MurrayM]

Some boats here are like corporate jets, while some are closer to Piper Cubs.

If you want to learn how to navigate by the seat of your pants, like a bush pilot in the 'olden days' you should check out this book: https://www.amazon.ca/Fundamentals-Kayak-Navigation-Traditional-Technologies/dp/091402552X

It's written by a fellow who teaches navigation to sailing yacht racers, but who's also a sea kayaker. I have the first edition (pre GPS) so the 4th edition may have some modern stuff in it. Still a worthwhile read to learn how to read the waters surface, how to anticipate conditions, using natural range markers, etc...

 

[FF]

"How many are that good at piloting or open ocean nav with paper charts and no electronic fixes?"

A noon shot does not require a chronometer, gives E-W but not N-S. Plastic sextant is fine.

Any hand held radio will give a LOP to a big city antenna .

Desperation would be a long lead line till on soundings , then contour nav. to close with shore and not hit it.

In much of the Atlantic to the Carib. its really easy.

CONTRAIL NAV,, , lots of flights go into JFK, BOS, Bermuda , San Juan so a daytime aim heading is fairly easy., follow the skid marks in the sky.

On clear nights aircraft strobe nav. lights are very visible. Close in 20-40 miles the arrival descent pattern is easy to follow.

At night the loom of most big cities gives 70+ miles of warning before getting there.

 

[psneeld]

All great primitive navigatin tips, the trick is not to blow through those early warning signs due to poor weather, and to take the landfall carefully.....assuming little or no electronic input.


It is true great navigation is still 50% brain power.

 

[diver dave]

My highest risk approach to an inlet relied exclusively on reading the wave height in a potential passage thru coral reef. A lot of back story on this one but it could easily have gone very wrong.

 

[catalinajack]

A lightening strike will take out all that stuff in one go. Best to have at least some paper charts as well. More of a problem on the east coast. I've had problems on the networked system that basically froze the whole thing, navigated by iPhone back to the dock at night, in weather.

Yes, lightning, something I worry about every day I go out the door. So, when, in the incredibly unlikely event of being struck by lightning while underway, how will you determine your position in order to begin plotting a course on a paper chart. Paper IMHO is good only for casually looking at the broad picture; it is obsolete otherwise. By the way, a smart phone or tablet is not likely to be damaged in a lightning strike in any case. All said with respect.

 

[TDunn]

I have two independent nav systems. One is a laptop with a gps puck. I have two different nav programs on the laptop. I also have a stand alone depth sounder if I remember to turn it on. My second nav system is a chartkit chart book coupled with a pair of binocs, my compass and my eyes and brain. I do generally carry back up eyes and a second brain (i.e., wife) as a back up for that system. I do not have radar. As far as the depth sounder backup goes, I actually have a lead line that I have used.


In a pinch I suppose I could download the navionics app to my phone if I had service.

 

[rsn48]

When folks say they use charts and feel they are adequate, they may be right, they may be wrong. How the charts were first created varies. I mean how complex is the California coast with 8 Islands? How complex is the British Columbia coast with thousands of islands, channels, inlets, and fjords?

There are areas in Alaska and northern coastal BC where the charts are "almost" good but "stuff" may have been left out. Below I have done a copy and paste of one ship noted for surveying our BC Coast. Note the date. Also surveying was done over long survey points, and what lay below those two points didn't necessarily make it in. So if you are gunkholing the Broughton Archipelago, do so gingerly.

HMS Egeria and Early Hydrography on the British Columbia Coast
by John M. MacFarlane and Lynn Salmon 2012 (Updated 2016)

HMS Egeria was a Royal Navy steam sloop, 940 tons, four guns. She was built at Pembroke UK and launched on 01/11/1873. She was 49m (160 feet) x 9.4m (31 feet) x 4.3m (14 feet) and powered by a two cylinder horizontal compound steam engine.She was armed with two seven–inch (90cwt) muzzle–loading rifles and two 64-pounder muzzle–loading rifles.She was named after Egeria, a water nymph of Roman mythology. She was re–configured for hydrographic survey duties in 1886. She arrived on the British Columbia coast in October 1898, to carry on new surveys and re–survey the work of Captain Richards RN and Commander Pender RN. In the early years 1898–1905 the survey work was in response to the Klondike gold rush. After 1906 the survey work was in response to the need to locate a terminus for the Grand Trunk Pacific Railway.

The history of HMS Egeria is synonymous with hydrographic surveying. In 1874-1881 she served on the China Station. In 1886 she was fitted out for surveying the waters of China, Malaya and Australia and was employed as a survey vessel for the remainder of her career. In 1889 she sounded the route of the Australian – British Columbia undersea telegraph cable.

Egeria sailed from China reaching the Pacific Station on February 8th, 1898. There had been an absence of a hydrographic survey vessel on the Pacific coast for 30 years prior to the arrival of Commander Smyth RN. The Egeria was primarily involved in resurveying settled areas of the British Columbia coast to create modern charts of a larger scale. The ship also surveyed the east coast of Vancouver Island and remained on Station in British Columbian waters from 1897 until 1910. The final survey conducted by the ship was of Welcome Pass off the Sunshine Coast. Egeria was the last vessel sent by the Admiralty Hydrographic Office to the Pacific coast; her last commission ended in 1910 when responsibility was transferred to the Canadian Hydrographic Service with the establishment of the Naval Service of Canada. In November 1911 she was sold at public auction in Esquimalt to the Vancouver Branch of the Navy League for £1,416. She retained her name becoming the Navy League Training Ship Egeria.


– A concrete slab in Stanley Park is inscribed "This concrete slab was set by the Royal Engineers in 1865 and was used as a survey point in 1898 by the Royal Navy survey ship H.M.S. Egeria.
– A geodetic monument is located on Goose Spit in Comox Harbour.

References:

MacFarlane, John M. and Lynn Salmon (2012) (Updated 2016) HMS Egeria and Early Hydrography on the British Columbia Coast. Nauticapedia.ca 2012. HMS Egeria and Early Hydrography on the British Columbia Coast

 

[MurrayM]

When folks say they use charts and feel they are adequate, they may be right, they may be wrong....

All the charts in this area (Douglas Channel, north coast BC) have notices about the possibility of estuary drying flats extending since being surveyed.

I was chatting with the owner of a 50-ish foot converted aluminum tuna trawler from Oregon here in Kitimat last year. He had been anchored somewhere up Gardner Canal...(Chief Matthews Bay, I think)...and noticed his boat starting to list as the tide dropped.

A Fisheries Officer happened to be there, and suggested he start his engine and put it into reverse to wash out a trough for his boat. The tides here can be 20 feet. In the end he said his boat was sitting in a pool of water and he could walk around it in the exposed mud.

The warnings are plainly there to see on paper charts, but you have to zoom in real close for it to appear on electronic charts.

He admitted how lucky he was that Fisheries fellow happened to be there!

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

An RDF and a Handheld VHF radio, both small battery operated. Both in/near a lifeboat. That is redundant.

RDF, Really? Without charts , what are you going to do with those RDF LOP's?

 

[ksanders]

Well guys...

Yet again Trawler Forum surprised me.

While I am thinking of navigational redundancy, and the risks of a single point of failure for a cruising vessel, others on a whole different level think of strings with weights.


I often worry that Alaska is “different”, and perhaps I am behind the times. I’m feeling better about that now.

 

[rsn48]

others on a whole different level think of strings with weights.

Mark Twain.

 

[FF]

"RDF, Really? Without charts , what are you going to do with those RDF LOP's?"

In the Atlantic with a US station MDF bearing by heading west should find the shore somewhere neat the station.

Only folks that believe their electronics will never fail , may have NO CHARTS.

 

[Mako]

How about an old fashioned $80 Humminbird digital depth sounder, can also be run off a small battery. In an emergency in shallow water then having a weighted rope with knots every few feet is a great idea. Costs zero dollars.

It's been mentioned lightening possibly taking down the entire electrical system. Small chances??? When I was younger I lived/sailed on Tampa Bay. Lightening hit nearby and we got zapped in our boat just from the charge in the water. I was even hit by a waterspout once.

For local cruising this isn't a big concern really, but for remote passage making it's another story, and having backups of everything electronic, down to the "circuit breaker level" is not full redundancy.

 

[Sangraal]

We have redundancy in systems where practical. In navigation tools we have twin chartplotters but they are a part of a network so no true redundancy. iPads are next running AquaMaps and Navionics. When making offshore passages we record Lat & Lon hourly along with speed direction etc (old habits). We carry hand held VHFs and have a hard wired unit. I have a redundant transducer that I can swap the network cable to if needed. Paper charts although I admit they are not up to date.
Electrical redundancy in twin battery systems and separate generator and battery. At a pinch I could split the 24 v bow thruster bank if required. Spare breakers, wire and more. I also carry some mechanical spares and an alternator and starter motor, water pump etc.

In summary a lot more redundancy than I used to have....

 

[twistedtree]

Well guys...



Yet again Trawler Forum surprised me.



While I am thinking of navigational redundancy, and the risks of a single point of failure for a cruising vessel, others on a whole different level think of strings with weights.





I often worry that Alaska is “different”, and perhaps I am behind the times. I’m feeling better about that now.

You just need a really long string

Buy typical breadth of TF responses, in case anyone thought there was only one way to do things.....

 

[diver dave]

RDF, Really? Without charts , what are you going to do with those RDF LOP's?

Its called homing. Still a lot of am broadcast stations out there. And eventually they all ID. Yeah , the usefulness depends on how lost u are. I have been pretty lost in aircraft and a bit lost in boats. And somewhat lost in u/w caves. On second thought, don’t listen to any of my advice. [emoji848]

 

[OldDan1943]

Current paper charts, (learn to plot your position at least every hour, stand alone depth sounder, stand alone rudder indicator, compensated compass, handheld VHF with position indicating. (I understand some VHFs have basic charts too.)
Sextant and necessary work sheets etc. Learn how to use it now, not when the GPS goes down. SMIRK
Something I have not seen is a "reverse course" feature without establishing waypoints.