Nav Computer Monitor

[ChristineKling]

I have a Planar Helium PCT2235 Touch Screen 22" monitor that I love, connected to a NUC as well, running TimeZero at my salon helm.

Steve, I have a question about your set-up. Furuno tells us not to put their radar on the boat's LAN. We have a ship's computer running TZ as well as our N2K monitoring system, and the whole ethernet network of coms and cameras. I'm not sure how to keep the Furuno system isolated from that network. We don't have any MFDs.

I've seen the network diagram you have on Seabitts, but there you were still using the Surface Pro. Is the NUC that you are using for your Furuno network a second NUC that replaced the SP? Would you recommend we get a second computer to keep the navigation system isolated?

Christine
http:mobius.world

 

[wkearney99]

Steve, I have a question about your set-up. Furuno tells us not to put their radar on the boat's LAN. We have a ship's computer running TZ as well as our N2K monitoring system, and the whole ethernet network of coms and cameras. I'm not sure how to keep the Furuno system isolated from that network. We don't have any MFDs.

If you don't have any MFDs then your radar has to be on the same network as the computer running TZ.

Where Furuno shies away from combining networks has to do with their 'interesting' way they're handling multiple subnets and devices.

I think it's really about not having any other unexpected traffic on the same network that might interfere with how the radar data is used. Thus if you don't put other stuff on the same network you're not likely to have problems they can't readily troubleshoot.

I'm going to be revisting my MFD12 network setup this year and larger networking questions have been something I've wanted to investigate.

There are any number of ways to segment/isolate network traffic, and all kinds of different router options that could be employed to do it (VLANs, subnets, filtering, etc).

This probably isn't the thread for a larger discussion about that. But I'd gladly participate in one if anyone else wants to start getting into the gnarlier details.

 

[stevemitchell]

Steve, I have a question about your set-up. Furuno tells us not to put their radar on the boat's LAN. We have a ship's computer running TZ as well as our N2K monitoring system, and the whole ethernet network of coms and cameras. I'm not sure how to keep the Furuno system isolated from that network. We don't have any MFDs.
http:mobius.world

I thought I had an updated diagram on the site - if not, I will get one up soon.

My PC's running TZ have Ethernet interfaces connected to a dedicated Furuno network that is not connected to anything else but Furuno stuff + cameras.

They also have either secondary Ethernet interfaces (NUC) or WiFi interfaces (Surface) to my main network where all sorts of stuff resides, and is where my internet connection lives.

Furuno definitely does not want anything on their network due to reliability, but more importantly how they do their networking.

If you don't have any MFDs then your radar has to be on the same network as the computer running TZ.

Where Furuno shies away from combining networks has to do with their 'interesting' way they're handling multiple subnets and devices.

I think it's really about not having any other unexpected traffic on the same network that might interfere with how the radar data is used. Thus if you don't put other stuff on the same network you're not likely to have problems they can't readily troubleshoot.

I'm going to be revisting my MFD12 network setup this year and larger networking questions have been something I've wanted to investigate.

There are any number of ways to segment/isolate network traffic, and all kinds of different router options that could be employed to do it (VLANs, subnets, filtering, etc).

This probably isn't the thread for a larger discussion about that. But I'd gladly participate in one if anyone else wants to start getting into the gnarlier details.

I've investigated a bunch of different alternatives to either combining these, or having a proxy/firewall/other thing in between. There are some good solutions, but ultimately having the dual networked devices seems the cleanest.

Furuno isn't the only one that handles subnets and networks weirdly. In fact, almost all manufacturers have something funky - Raymarine requires a specific network range that conflicted with a ton of things I already had in place, etc. At the end of the day I would rather have my network run by networking gear, not by marine electronics gear anyhow.

It is probably a good thing to discuss in a separate post at some point. I should dig up all of my testing and diagrams from a year ago.

 

[wkearney99]

I thought I had an updated diagram on the site - if not, I will get one up soon.

My PC's running TZ have Ethernet interfaces connected to a dedicated Furuno network that is not connected to anything else but Furuno stuff + cameras.

They also have either secondary Ethernet interfaces (NUC) or WiFi interfaces (Surface) to my main network where all sorts of stuff resides, and is where my internet connection lives.

Furuno definitely does not want anything on their network due to reliability, but more importantly how they do their networking.

I've investigated a bunch of different alternatives to either combining these, or having a proxy/firewall/other thing in between. There are some good solutions, but ultimately having the dual networked devices seems the cleanest.

Furuno isn't the only one that handles subnets and networks weirdly. In fact, almost all manufacturers have something funky - Raymarine requires a specific network range that conflicted with a ton of things I already had in place, etc. At the end of the day I would rather have my network run by networking gear, not by marine electronics gear anyhow.

It is probably a good thing to discuss in a separate post at some point. I should dig up all of my testing and diagrams from a year ago.

You know doubt realize this already, but you have to be careful about multi-homing a PC using more than one Ethernet connection. The Windows networking stack is sometimes unpredictable when there's more that one IP interface active. It's not "supposed to be" a problem but more often than not it will be a problem. Multicast is the main issue, but there's other hassles too. I find that if you don't need multicast from both networks into the PC that it's better to use a router to handle the connecting. But if you have gear that's using dynamic discovery on both networks... well... it can get messy. I've not tackled this with my MFD setup but it's been 'on my list' for a while.

 

[stevemitchell]

You know doubt realize this already, but you have to be careful about multi-homing a PC using more than one Ethernet connection. The Windows networking stack is sometimes unpredictable when there's more that one IP interface active. It's not "supposed to be" a problem but more often than not it will be a problem. Multicast is the main issue, but there's other hassles too. I find that if you don't need multicast from both networks into the PC that it's better to use a router to handle the connecting. But if you have gear that's using dynamic discovery on both networks... well... it can get messy. I've not tackled this with my MFD setup but it's been 'on my list' for a while.

Yup, coming from the networking world, very well aware of the nonsense that Windows does with multiple adapters. Not only do I have a 3rd party firewall installed and configured, but also interface metrics, specific other interface settings, and forced routing.

Even with all of that, Windows 10 chooses to do tests on the Furuno network that it shouldn't, etc.

However, it doesn't harm anything, it just never gets anywhere. But it would be nice if you could control it more without a lot of extra futzing.