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Old 06-27-2022, 03:09 PM   #41
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East Penn generally makes good batteries. Their 12v "deep cycle" AGMs aren't particularly heavy duty deep cycles, but they're not bad batteries by any means. I've had them last many years as starting batteries.
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Old 06-27-2022, 06:30 PM   #42
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I've used many East Penn battys in different configurations and been satisfied for the price point.,yes you can butb"better" quality battys but at 1.5X - 2X $$ I don't find them a better economical alternative.
My 3 AGM 8Ds are in their 9th season and still doing well.
I put 8 AGM Duracell 6V GCs in my motorhome and doing well but only a few years use do far.
I do pay attention to recharge after depleting and use maintainers in storage when possible.
Boat is stored for winter with no power available. My AGMs are typically at 12.5-12.7 V after 6 mos storage.
I have seen note from CMS that he has seen issues with East Penn andcI value his experience. So far I'm very satisfied but I would NEVER pay West Marine price for them.
NAPA 8D AGM by EP is 100$ less than WM for more batty.
https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/BAT9...&gclsrc=aw.ds&
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Old 06-27-2022, 07:17 PM   #43
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I switched to Fireflys last fall in part because of their 1,000 cycle 80% discharge rating. Not having to recharge them 100% each time is also attractive. Normal usage is a less than 50% discharge and 100% recharge on any day the boat is under way.

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Old 06-27-2022, 11:21 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
...So, lithium battery proponents, please explain to me, and others similary situated, how lithium would be life-changing...
It might be truly life changing for a bipolar battery user, lithium carbonate being a prescribed mood stabilizer.

Seriously though, a well managed bank of LA, flooded, sealed or better still in AGM, can be an excellent easily managed economic storage source. I`ll happily make the AGM transition but Lithium is a big step. Fortunately we are finding more of it in Australia, prices and demand are rising, it`s not without attractions.
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Old 06-28-2022, 05:17 AM   #45
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Seriously though, a well managed bank of LA, flooded, sealed or better still in AGM, can be an excellent easily managed economic storage source.. .

Yeah but it's not.
Have you tried pricing up a decent sized AGM bank in Oz recently?

It's why we went Lifepo4,
Double the useable amp hours in LFP for less coin than 8 X 220ah replacement AGM

Quote:
I`ll happily make the AGM transition but Lithium is a big step
Actually, it was pretty easy.
Prior research was essential
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Old 06-28-2022, 05:13 PM   #46
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FWIW when I discuss batteries, how they last perrform etc. it is all based on many years of testing marine and RV batteries to BCI testing standards..My business was perhaps the first marine electrical business to invest in discharge testers..It has allowed me to see first hand how depth of discharge affects battery life..



For example a 105Ah East Penn AGM 4/2018 date code tested on 11/2018 t at just 67.42Ah...Owner estimates 25 deep cycles to 50%..This was on a GB32 trawler not a sailboat..



For those wondering about LiFePo4 this is the testing of my 400Ah cells at year 13 and 2000+ cycles most to at least 80% DoD...I built that bank in 2009 for just about 2k...

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Old 06-28-2022, 07:52 PM   #47
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CMS - you have to come spoil all those marvelous opinions with cold facts :-).

Diver - the only problem with Fireflys is they are no longer available.
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Old 06-29-2022, 05:46 AM   #48
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Diver - the only problem with Fireflys is they are no longer available.

FWIW, the note on Ocean Planet's website suggests the Victron Energy Super Cycle batteries may offer features similar to Firefly.

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Old 06-30-2022, 05:55 AM   #49
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Inordinate is a relative term. There have been a number of discussions about when LFP is more/less beneficial, and not everyone's usage patterns benefit the same. Is my usage "inordinate"? Maybe to some, but I would call it "convenient".





You, and many others have run like this for decades.





In your case, the benefit would be shorter generator run times. Does that matter to you? At this point it would seen not, which is fine.




Cycles aren't meaningless or a flowed concept. They are just an incomplete metric for lifespan. FLA/AGM published cycle life is always based on a DOD, typically 50%. More complete specs will plot cycle life vs DOD, and that's the more complete story showing the range of usage available, and showing that 50% DOD is just one usage pattern, not the only usage pattern.


LFP is no different. 2500 cycles at 100% DOD has been proven over and over again for about 20 years now. And that's under much more abusive operation that any house battery bank will ever see. That's already about 5x the lifespan of lead, and only grows with more gentle use.





And that's all good.
And TT, that is pretty much what I have been trying to say all along. Lithium makes sense for some folks and not so for others. But, I think there are many more boaters who cruise in the manner in which we do rather than those folks who stay out for extended periods of time. And, yes, I understand the benefits of solar and less generator run time. I just don't care. The fact is that lithium would not change my life in any significant way but I do understand that, for others, lithium does. What I object to is definitive statements that something IS when, in fact, the answer is more likely "it may be". It all depends, does it not?
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Old 06-30-2022, 07:30 AM   #50
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And TT, that is pretty much what I have been trying to say all along. Lithium makes sense for some folks and not so for others. But, I think there are many more boaters who cruise in the manner in which we do rather than those folks who stay out for extended periods of time. And, yes, I understand the benefits of solar and less generator run time. I just don't care. The fact is that lithium would not change my life in any significant way but I do understand that, for others, lithium does. What I object to is definitive statements that something IS when, in fact, the answer is more likely "it may be". It all depends, does it not?

It also depends on the boat. For some, reduced space and weight for batteries is enough of an advantage. For others, it doesn't really matter.
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Old 07-01-2022, 12:55 PM   #51
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60% is not a big change from 50%. The Rolls site has a graph. If you calculate total Ah delivered over the service life there is little difference between 50 and 70% discharges. If you're trying to make one bank last as long as possible the less discharge the better. But if you're looking at the ongoing long term cost per Ah used, a higher discharge comes out better figuring in that fewer batteries are used.
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Old 07-01-2022, 01:07 PM   #52
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I think whatís being lost in this discussion is the special problem of PSOC (partial state of charge) sulfation ONLY in AGMís used for a house bank. This is not a significant problem in flooded or even gels. Itís only a an issue for deep discharged AGMís (AGMís make great start batteries since the arenít deep discharged)

As Rod says, AGMís can be ďmurderedĒ in less than a year by PSOC. This isnít minor gradual capacity loss but 80%+ capacity loss. It is unmistakable. Iíve had it happen twice to a two year old house bank despite never discharging below 50% and meticulously following the manufacturers recommendations.

If you plug into a marina almost every night you wonít ever experience this. It happens if you regularly anchor out for 3-4 days. Neither solar, genset, or alternators provide enough hours of float to prevent PSOC (unless you run your genset all night or run your engines 6+ hours between anchorages)

As this is the kind of cruising I do, I gave up on AGMís as a house bank. I went to gels and was very happy. With my new boat I used LFP and am even happier.
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Old 07-02-2022, 10:03 AM   #53
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I think whatís being lost in this discussion is the special problem of PSOC (partial state of charge) sulfation ONLY in AGMís used for a house bank. This is not a significant problem in flooded or even gels. Itís only a an issue for deep discharged AGMís (AGMís make great start batteries since the arenít deep discharged)

As Rod says, AGMís can be ďmurderedĒ in less than a year by PSOC. This isnít minor gradual capacity loss but 80%+ capacity loss. It is unmistakable. Iíve had it happen twice to a two year old house bank despite never discharging below 50% and meticulously following the manufacturers recommendations.

If you plug into a marina almost every night you wonít ever experience this. It happens if you regularly anchor out for 3-4 days. Neither solar, genset, or alternators provide enough hours of float to prevent PSOC (unless you run your genset all night or run your engines 6+ hours between anchorages)

As this is the kind of cruising I do, I gave up on AGMís as a house bank. I went to gels and was very happy. With my new boat I used LFP and am even happier.
Interesting. What brand of agms were you using?
Iíve had very good luck with agms on previous boats and am thinking of using them to replace the aging fla Trojans Iím running now. Since a need 16 batteries Iím taking the decision seriously. If my bank only lasted two years Iíd be extremely unhappy.
I do the same 2-4 days out at a time, and monitor my batteries continuously. Iím eventually going to install solar on the pilothouse roof to help keep them topped off.
I was thinking two 400 watt panels for starters.
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Old 07-02-2022, 02:32 PM   #54
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2003, we installed eight Concord Lifeline 105ah AGMs.
Our photovoltaic -- six 305-Watt, a total of 1,830-Watts.
.
We boondock exclusively.
We never saw much need for a genset.
.
Early on, we realized we have more juice than we need.
We accomplished this two ways:
* eliminating wasters
* using juice during mid-day sun, mostly by-passing the bank.
.
One of our brainiac chums calculated our draw.
Apparently, we rarely pull more than three percent (3%) from our bank.
.
We cook with induction hot-plates.
We heat water with electricity.
.
At no point are we 'doing without'.
We have everything we need, we just need less of it.
.
Our AGM bank is nearing its second full decade of full-time live-aboard.
In all those years, our only time of concern was near the Arctic, the sun low on the horizon for twenty-three hours every day.
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Old 07-02-2022, 02:40 PM   #55
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2003, we installed eight Concord Lifeline 105ah AGMs.
Our photovoltaic -- six 305-Watt, a total of 1,830-Watts.

.
One of our brainiac chums calculated our draw.
Apparently, we rarely pull more than three percent (3%) from our bank.
.
We cook with induction hot-plates.
We heat water with electricity.
.
.

8 X 105 and using induction and electric hot water yet still only using 3%?
Something doesn't sound right but I could be wrong.

We had 8 X 220ah and 2500w of solar in sub tropical climates
Had electric hot water but NO induction and used a lot more than 3% - closer to 20%
We do have big refrigeration.
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Old 07-06-2022, 12:46 AM   #56
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8 X 105 and using induction and electric hot water...using 3%?
Something doesn't sound right...
.
Excellent point.
.
Semi-retired welder-fabricator here.
Home-built, we are rigged *significantly* different than something from a factory.
.
We heat water using one of our 'sous vide' circulation heaters (we carry two for resilience).
We heat water in a dedicated three-gallon Torpedo keg, plenty for a shower.
Figure around 900-Watts for ten minutes, tapering to around 400-Watts as it nears the set-point.
At the set-temperature, it cycles at around 80-Watts.
.
And remember, we schedule our draw for mid-day, so much of our juice is straight out of the sky.
.
Our Torpedo keg is part of our extensive keg system:
For drinking and worshing water, we use stainless-steel five-gallon retired Pepsi kegs manufactured by the Cornelius Company.
These kegs are popular with home-brewers of beer and kombucha.
The Torpedo is a miniature version of the standard 'Corny keg'.
.
As we see it, this water system offer advantages over a yuge tank:
* modular -- our typical load is seven kegs, a total of 35-gallons... and we can add several dozen more.
* isolation -- if one gets stanky, the others stay in service... and are used to clean the problem-child.
* loanable -- a keg can go to somebody short on drinking water.
* portable -- a keg can go to the campfire or picnic-table or fish-cleaning board.
.
Corny kegs are engineered to be pressurized.
For us, a quick puff from a 12vdc bicycle-tire compressor, and water flows from the sink-sprayer designed for a stand-still house kitchen.
.
.
After a half-century of making-do in lesser factory 'mobile homes', our current full-time live-aboard is a culmination of everything we need but nothing else.
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Old 07-06-2022, 08:22 AM   #57
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True unless running (alts), long gen runs ( for A/C?), solar or visiting a dock once / week.

I was going to suggest that the gen when at anchor for the bulk charge and solar (if equipped obviously) for the float charge. So basically, what he said.
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