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Old 03-19-2022, 05:12 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
I have seen nothing in an alternator that can smash out 140 amps @ 24v continually or anything close to it for less.

Perhaps you can point me in the right direction?

I did see a BIM that'll give 15 minutes on, 20 minutes off
But only in 12v can't find anything like it in 24v and as it spends more time off than on even bigger alts again would be needed
https://battlebornbatteries.com/prod...ation-manager/

I've been using Prestolite/Leece-Nevelle 4000 series alternators for a while, available in 200A @ 24V. They will do a sustained 200A, but they get hot, so I think derating is probably a good idea. But it woud give you 150A or more continuously with no trouble. $1500 in the US, but shipping might be what drives the price up so high in Oz.


https://prestolitesuperstore.com/Cat...type-24V-200A/
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Old 03-19-2022, 06:50 AM   #22
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Another solution may be using a hydraulic driven generator. This would allow you to run your main propulsion engine at any RPM while the generator would maintain correct RPM to maintain proper frequency. Hereís an example

https://dynaset.com/product/hg-hydraulic-generator/

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Old 03-19-2022, 02:13 PM   #23
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Questions for now...
Some questions and comments:

What is your current 24v 120a charger that you mention? Can it have additional alternators or generators fitted?

Would your dead alternators have survived if they had a simple temperature controller added? It would be fairly easy and cheap to add the main features of the external regulators: a temp controller, an output shut off regulator and a small LA battery for when output is terminated. The main feature that I see as difficult to replicate would be load throttling to prevent over heating but the temp controller and relay could achieve this via a crude form of PWM.

I'd agree with posts in the other threads that the cheap 3000/3600 rpm generator heads don't last long when run continuosly at high loads. We were killing these every few months on job sites when left to run aircons etc 24/7. Intermittent use for contractor tools is fine but continuous use killed them quickly. Most are also designed for direct drive, relying on the drive shaft for bearings. Generally there is no allowance for the side loads present in a belt drive setup. Some form af bearing support would have to be added. Comparing like for like, a Chinesium 1500rpm 5 or 10kva head is only USD500 delivered. The down side is it's big and 120kg. Yes, Alibaba quality but I would be a lot more confident of these running 24/7 at 80% load than the high speed units. If required, name brands are also available.

Much of the comparison seems to be apples and oranges. I don't see much merit in comparing a full Balmar/Victron setup with a cheap generator head with diy control and wiring. Both have merits and issues but I see direct comparisons as misleading. Each to their own.

In my mind the two budget options would be a $600 generator feeding direct to an inverter charger with that inverter providing the control logic. If the aim is providing charging for hours while underway, then I don't see rpm and frequency control as a difficult issue. Let's call it $1000 including diy install.

A large frame Chinese alternator is ~$1500 for up to 15kw. Add another $500 for temperature control, SLA bank and out put relay for a $2000 total.

Again, both of these options can be grossed up for name brands.
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Old 03-19-2022, 03:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by GoneDiving View Post
Some questions and comments:

What is your current 24v 120a charger that you mention? Can it have additional alternators or generators fitted?
It's the 5000/120 amp victron multiplus we have
Power for that when required is a 7kVA genset head on a 21hp Kubota that was a hard runner when made.
But it doesn't produce full power as it's been wound back by previous owner (to noisy before) to 1500rpm so only getting around 4kva now


Quote:
Would your dead alternators have survived if they had a simple temperature controller added? It would be fairly easy and cheap to add the main features of the external regulators: a temp controller, an output shut off regulator and a small LA battery for when output is terminated. The main feature that I see as difficult to replicate would be load throttling to prevent over heating but the temp controller and relay could achieve this via a crude form of PWM.
Maybe, don't know, not wanting to guinea pig another one together to try - not if I can get real power for similar coin

Quote:
I'd agree with posts in the other threads that the cheap 3000/3600 rpm generator heads don't last long when run continuosly at high loads. We were killing these every few months on job sites when left to run aircons etc 24/7. Intermittent use for contractor tools is fine but continuous use killed them quickly.
.
I missed any mention on them not lasting in other threads
And running for several hours then a week off is not what I consider continuous use
Biggest days are probably 12 hours once or twice a year

Quote:
Most are also designed for direct drive, relying on the drive shaft for bearings. Generally there is no allowance for the side loads present in a belt drive setup. Some form af bearing support would have to be added. Comparing like for like, a Chinesium 1500rpm 5 or 10kva head is only USD500 delivered. The down side is it's big and 120kg. Yes, Alibaba quality but I would be a lot more confident of these running 24/7 at 80% load than the high speed units. If required, name brands are also available.

Much of the comparison seems to be apples and oranges. I don't see much merit in comparing a full Balmar/Victron setup with a cheap generator head with diy control and wiring. Both have merits and issues but I see direct comparisons as misleading. Each to their own
.

Big and bulky is not an option

And that head was just an example
There are belt driven versions out there
The only reason I put balmar in the mix was it's there with pricing and what many seem to use - but not the way I want to go.

And Mecc Alte is an Italian build so I would not have thought it a "cheap" brand - more balmar is an expensive one (-;
Quote:
In my mind the two budget options would be a $600 generator feeding direct to an inverter charger with that inverter providing the control logic. If the aim is providing charging for hours while underway, then I don't see rpm and frequency control as a difficult issue. Let's call it $1000 including diy install.
Exactly what I am trying to do.
With a name brand head

Quote:
A large frame Chinese alternator is ~$1500 for up to 15kw. Add another $500 for temperature control, SLA bank and out put relay for a $2000 total.
Not if I can get a result for a grand like mentioned prior.

At the end of the day this is not a "need" it's a want

We have 2500w of solar - but recently, not much sun - first time in years - now the rains clearing out we are starting to see this big lifepo4 bank playing catch-up.
We have a Genset and charger that puts in 120amps/hour
A 3rd reasonable power generation source would be nice when underway and for under a $1000 I'd be keen but I don't need it for $3000
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Old 03-19-2022, 03:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by johnrupp View Post
Another solution may be using a hydraulic driven generator. This would allow you to run your main propulsion engine at any RPM while the generator would maintain correct RPM to maintain proper frequency. Here’s an example

https://dynaset.com/product/hg-hydraulic-generator/

John
That is nice but I suspect more than I am wanting to spend this year.

Add: actually, that's a very nice solution
Mount anywhere is a big plus.
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Old 03-19-2022, 03:15 PM   #26
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I've been using Prestolite/Leece-Nevelle 4000 series alternators for a while, available in 200A @ 24V. They will do a sustained 200A, but they get hot, so I think derating is probably a good idea. But it woud give you 150A or more continuously with no trouble. $1500 in the US, but shipping might be what drives the price up so high in Oz.


https://prestolitesuperstore.com/Cat...type-24V-200A/
And exchange rates
$1500 USD is already $2020 AUD, would be every bit of $2500 if bringing it in myself

Not worth it if having to de-rate it to keep the smoke in
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Old 03-20-2022, 04:26 AM   #27
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Another solution may be using a hydraulic driven generator. This would allow you to run your main propulsion engine at any RPM while the generator would maintain correct RPM to maintain proper frequency. Here’s an example

https://dynaset.com/product/hg-hydraulic-generator/

John
A very interesting concept. I did not know there was such a thing. But the hydraulic pump would need to be attached to the main motor, yes? In order to pump into the generator. It would be like having power steering added but driving the generator. What mean is that the load on the main engine should be minimal.
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Old 03-20-2022, 08:18 AM   #28
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For our system, I used a belt and suspenders approach to protect the alternators- each alternator has a Sterling APD, and the Wakespeed external regulators monitor the battery bank and regulate the alternator output as required.
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Old 03-20-2022, 02:18 PM   #29
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A very interesting concept. I did not know there was such a thing. But the hydraulic pump would need to be attached to the main motor, yes? In order to pump into the generator. It would be like having power steering added but driving the generator. What mean is that the load on the main engine should be minimal.
Or a pto off the gearbox
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Old 03-20-2022, 11:53 PM   #30
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Well, just had a quote come back from the generator shop that was selling these heads.
A 10kva Mecc Alte brand made in Italy and set up to be belt driven.

With outlet fitted, $395 + gst

Reckons he's sold plenty over the years, never had a return

10kva 50hz 240v is only 245mm wide and 460mm long

Think it'll be worth further investigation.
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Old 03-21-2022, 12:01 AM   #31
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At the same time got the quote on the hydraulic generator

HYDRAULIC GEN 3.5KW SINGLE PHASE
NO OUTLET $2,694.40

HYDRAULIC GEN 5KW SINGLE PHASE
NO OUTLET $3,444.80

Really are a nice set up, I could plug this into the gearbox with ball valve on-off
And remote mount on the other side of the bulkhead with the inverter charger feet away from it.

Would definately have this over a Balmar/Wakefield type arrangement.
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Old 03-21-2022, 12:49 AM   #32
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A quote from a thread back in 2017.
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Originally Posted by Phil Fill View Post
We have a 5KW cruise gen powered by the main 671. I had to re sheave/pulley on the 671 bigger to be able to maintain the required gen rpm at the cruise RPM of the main 671. One we are out in open water and will be cruising for hours at a constant 1500 rpm I switch to the cruise gen. In the marina and at slower speed use the main gen set which power the bow thruster and the get home. So the gen set is back up for the main 671 and the main 671 is back up for the gen set.

Cruise gen sets are some what popular on for sail boats and even small trawlers as an option. Our is a Auto-gen – 120/240 AC 60 Hz 5500 wt – requires minimum of 1750 RPM. Mfg by Mercantle Manufacturing company, Minden Louisiana.
Some links to some other devices in that thread
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...tml#post190903
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Old 03-21-2022, 03:22 AM   #33
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Well, just had a quote come back from the generator shop that was selling these heads.
A 10kva Mecc Alte brand made in Italy and set up to be belt driven.

With outlet fitted, $395 + gst

Reckons he's sold plenty over the years, never had a return

10kva 50hz 240v is only 245mm wide and 460mm long

Think it'll be worth further investigation.
Sounds pretty good. Which distributor was that? Does that include an AVR?
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Old 03-21-2022, 05:59 AM   #34
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Sounds pretty good. Which distributor was that? Does that include an AVR?

https://powerlite.com.au/

Didn't mention AVR but if it was ready to go you'd think it'd be there.
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Old 03-21-2022, 06:36 AM   #35
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https://powerlite.com.au/

Didn't mention AVR but if it was ready to go you'd think it'd be there.
Thanks. Just incase they are of use, there seem to be a few distributors in Aus:

https://www.meccalte.com/
Mecc Alte Alternators PTY LTD
10 Duncan Road, PO Box 1046
Dry Creek, 5094, South Australia
Tel. +61 (0)8 8349 8422
Fax. +61 (0)8 8349 8455
Email: info@meccalte.com.au

https://www.macfarlanegenerators.com...ors-and-Spares
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Old 03-21-2022, 08:02 AM   #36
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This article may help answer some of these questions..

Drop-In LiFePO4 Batteries Ė Be an Educated Consumer
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Old 03-21-2022, 08:09 AM   #37
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Well, just had a quote come back from the generator shop that was selling these heads.
A 10kva Mecc Alte brand made in Italy and set up to be belt driven.

With outlet fitted, $395 + gst

Reckons he's sold plenty over the years, never had a return

10kva 50hz 240v is only 245mm wide and 460mm long

Think it'll be worth further investigation.

If you decide to do this, either directly driven, or hydraulically drive, I'd be real interested to follow along with the project. I spent a little bit of time looking at a variant of this that you might want to consider.


As discussed here and elsewhere, the constraint with this approach is that you need to operate the engine at a specific rpm to get 50hz (or 60hz) power that will be usable my AC appliances. I know you are OK with that constrain, but at a minimum it will require switching the thing on/off when you are operating off-rpm, and there might be some risk of appliance damage if you forget. I personally didn't want something that required that much attention.


The alternative I considered was to rectify the AC to make DC, but it would be at a much higher voltage. It would end up in the 340VDC range with a 230VAC generator end, and you would use that as the DC power source for an inverter and for chargers. The Victron chargers can already operate off a DC power source, and there are high voltage inverters available as well - just not "marine" devices, whatever that means. The advantage of this approach is that the chargers and inverter would operate independent of main engine RPM.


In the end I didn't pursue it because it seemed to add up to a more complicated system without significant gain.
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Old 03-21-2022, 11:50 AM   #38
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From the cheap seats here, it looks like the cheapest solution to the concern about BMS dump is as rslifkin said is a FLA battery, maybe behind an ACR. I have no dog in this hunt since I am sticking with AGMs on my smallish boat.
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Old 03-22-2022, 04:43 PM   #39
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If you decide to do this, either directly driven, or hydraulically drive, I'd be real interested to follow along with the project. I spent a little bit of time looking at a variant of this that you might want to consider.


As discussed here and elsewhere, the constraint with this approach is that you need to operate the engine at a specific rpm to get 50hz (or 60hz) power that will be usable my AC appliances.
.
Not with the hydraulic one you don't
Engine can be at any rpm and output is the same

Quote:
I know you are OK with that constrain, but at a minimum it will require switching the thing on/off when you are operating off-rpm, and there might be some risk of appliance damage if you forget. I personally didn't want something that required that much attention.
And I'm not convinced that should be an issue as the gen head is putting power into the inverter charger and the inverter would be powering the appliances , so that power should be clean if that's the right word?

Quote:
The alternative I considered was to rectify the AC to make DC, but it would be at a much higher voltage. It would end up in the 340VDC range with a 230VAC generator end, and you would use that as the DC power source for an inverter and for chargers. The Victron chargers can already operate off a DC power source, and there are high voltage inverters available as well - just not "marine" devices, whatever that means. The advantage of this approach is that the chargers and inverter would operate independent of main engine RPM.


In the end I didn't pursue it because it seemed to add up to a more complicated system without significant gain
Oh I agree, have read that several times and still can't get my head around it

Feeling a bit annoyed at the moment
Had never heard of the hydraulic Genset option before
Did some research and it sounds ideal
And found a second hand but seemingly unused one in Australia at an acceptable price

Contacted seller about it and he is in disbelief
Has been sitting there on the shelf for two years with no bites and now he gets 2 enquiries in week.
Seems I missed out by a day.
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Old 03-22-2022, 04:50 PM   #40
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A lot of Nordhavn's early on were equipped with hydraulic alternators, and all, or nearly all have since been removed. I have no first hand experience with them, but complaints were that they put out a huge amount of heat, and that reliability and repair were problematic. But perhaps the more modern unit that was referenced in this thread will work better.
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