Lithium iron phosphate batteries on sale

[Comodave]

A cautionary note: LFP batteries subjected to normal engine room temperatures will loose a significant amount of capacity every year.

I am moving the house bank out of the engine room into a cabinet in the salon that used to hold the icemaker. We never used the icemaker so it was coming out anyway. In the new location all the wire runs will be at least 50% shorter to and from the batteries to the main panel, charger and the alternator. So it will be a win-win situation all around. The batteries do not charge above 111 degrees.

 

[Bud]

Thats one of the big advantages of the lithium phosphate batteries is that there is no gas byproduct when charging so you can pretty much put them anywhere. I am already thinking about my set up. thanks for the post.

Bud

 

[Pau Hana]

Thats one of the big advantages of the lithium phosphate batteries is that there is no gas byproduct when charging so you can pretty much put them anywhere. I am already thinking about my set up. thanks for the post.

Bud

Same here- I missed out on the Costco deal, but I’m exploring the change...thus far, I’m pretty sold on the technology, and I’m finding that there are definitely solutions that don’t require a 100% electrical system overhaul...

 

[koliver]

I have read several people who get 10 years out of wet cells.
What is your usage pattern?
My experience with car batteries over 40 years is that 5-6 years and there done. In the last 10 years on the boat 8Ds and 4Ds got 5-6 years. The 6volt house bank was 6 years 9 months. The 6 volts still had full capacity but they over heated during heavy charging due to internal resistance. I guess I could have kept them longer but the alternator shutdown on batt temp and was annoying. The casings were buldging when I pulled them. My house bank gets cycled 20% about 50 times a year.

Constant, or as near as you can get, charging.
Since I stopped working, in 2011, we have been going away for several months every winter. That means 2 cars are laid up, uninsured, unused. We also have one too many cars, so the layup of the redundant one, rotated through the fleet, is a full year. Harbor Freight sells a tiny battery minder, charges at 0.5 amps, that I put on any unused battery to keep it fresh.
My newest car is a Volvo XC90 that I bought new in June 2005. It is still on its original battery, FLA, sealed. I used to average 5 yrs out of car batteries, but now I get a lot more.
My boat is plugged in for the winter months, left on its Xantrex MS2000 charger/inverter, with no loads except rare bilge pump use. The heaters are AC, the HW and charger keep the ER and batteries from getting too cold.
In the summer, I used to be plugged in for all of the time the boat wasn't being used, and the only deep discharges came on long periods of anchoring, with not enough generator hours. Since Solar, 2 summers now, the solar keeps the batteries at a healthy state of charge all the time.

 

[fryedaze]

Constant, or as near as you can get, charging.
Since I stopped working, in 2011, we have been going away for several months every winter. That means 2 cars are laid up, uninsured, unused. We also have one too many cars, so the layup of the redundant one, rotated through the fleet, is a full year. Harbor Freight sells a tiny battery minder, charges at 0.5 amps, that I put on any unused battery to keep it fresh.
My newest car is a Volvo XC90 that I bought new in June 2005. It is still on its original battery, FLA, sealed. I used to average 5 yrs out of car batteries, but now I get a lot more.
My boat is plugged in for the winter months, left on its Xantrex MS2000 charger/inverter, with no loads except rare bilge pump use. The heaters are AC, the HW and charger keep the ER and batteries from getting too cold.
In the summer, I used to be plugged in for all of the time the boat wasn't being used, and the only deep discharges came on long periods of anchoring, with not enough generator hours. Since Solar, 2 summers now, the solar keeps the batteries at a healthy state of charge all the time.

So the batteries in your boat don't get cycled and last much longer.

 

[Wood]

Same here- I missed out on the Costco deal, but I’m exploring the change...thus far, I’m pretty sold on the technology, and I’m finding that there are definitely solutions that don’t require a 100% electrical system overhaul...

I replaced my house bank with 560AH lifepo4 this summer. 280AH EVE lifepo4 are available for less than $1,000 shipped for 8 cells on Alibaba.

I kept the legacy chargers [Freedom 25 & Promariner 1220] and OEM alternators. I added a couple of Blue Sea 7700 for $100 each to act as low and high voltage disconnects; a used Sterling AB 130amp charger for $75 to regulate the alternator and the REC ABMS for battery management -~ $700.

The Promariner 1220 can be custom programmed. Even the old Freedom 25 has confg settings that end bulk @ 14v with a 13.1v float which is below normal operating voltage for the lifepo4.

That's it. Less than $2,500 for a safe, fully functional 560AH system.

I'm on a mooring and leave the 3g security system and refrigerator running. Those items consume less than 200AH per week.

Drop ins are nice - but some time and elbow grease will give you a good or better system for less.

There are many well reviewed sellers on Alibaba. These cells may not be first quality according to the manufacturer - but are not "defective" either. The competent sellers match the cells for capacity and resistance.

So far, I'm very satisfied with the lifepo4 cells. I've already drawn over 18,000AH from them since installation with a mix of full & partial charge / discharge cycles. They just work.

 

[Pau Hana]

I replaced my house bank with 560AH lifepo4 this summer. 280AH EVE lifepo4 are available for less than $1,000 shipped for 8 cells on Alibaba.

I kept the legacy chargers [Freedom 25 & Promariner 1220] and OEM alternators. I added a couple of Blue Sea 7700 for $100 each to act as low and high voltage disconnects; a used Sterling AB 130amp charger for $75 to regulate the alternator and the REC ABMS for battery management -~ $700.

The Promariner 1220 can be custom programmed. Even the old Freedom 25 has confg settings that end bulk @ 14v with a 13.1v float which is below normal operating voltage for the lifepo4.

That's it. Less than $2,500 for a safe, fully functional 560AH system.

I'm on a mooring and leave the 3g security system and refrigerator running. Those items consume less than 200AH per week.

Drop ins are nice - but some time and elbow grease will give you a good or better system for less.

There are many well reviewed sellers on Alibaba. These cells may not be first quality according to the manufacturer - but are not "defective" either. The competent sellers match the cells for capacity and resistance.

So far, I'm very satisfied with the lifepo4 cells. I've already drawn over 18,000AH from them since installation with a mix of full & partial charge / discharge cycles. They just work.

Nice!

Here's where my research has led me- have been on the phone with Battleborn and others getting a handle on the best way to execute the system change. This far:

• Our onboard inverter/charger (Samlex 3012- 3000W PS inverter, 130A charger) is more than sufficient to charge the proposed house bank of 6 100Ah battteries. The unit has programmable profiles that meet the needs of the li-ion battery bank. the start bank will remain on a standalone 40A charger.
• Rather than use a series of ACRs, I'm looking to use a combiner from the alternators to feed the battery banks (house and start) thru a Precision Circuit LI-BIM 225. This unit is programmed to meet the needs of both the lithium bank (coach) and flooded/AGM start bank (chassis). Also, buffers the alternator from shock loads if the BMS shuts down charging. The LI-BIM 225 can also be momentarily connected to the start bank if needed.
• Alternatively, I'm exploring having 100% of the alternator output feed the house bank only, then use a DC-DC charger to charge the start bank.

I'm not too interested in building a battery, even though I know it's significantly cheaper to do so vs Battleborn, Lion Energy, Victron, etc. What interests me is the ability to use almost all the capacity of the battery without worrying about sulfation, water maintenance, etc.

 

[catalinajack]

I have read several people who get 10 years out of wet cells.
What is your usage pattern?
My experience with car batteries over 40 years is that 5-6 years and there done. In the last 10 years on the boat 8Ds and 4Ds got 5-6 years. The 6volt house bank was 6 years 9 months. The 6 volts still had full capacity but they over heated during heavy charging due to internal resistance. I guess I could have kept them longer but the alternator shutdown on batt temp and was annoying. The casings were buldging when I pulled them. My house bank gets cycled 20% about 50 times a year.

Are you saying you deplete your batteries to 20% or use 20% of the available amp-hours?

I have read several people who get 10 years out of wet cells.
What is your usage pattern?
My experience with car batteries over 40 years is that 5-6 years and there done. In the last 10 years on the boat 8Ds and 4Ds got 5-6 years. The 6volt house bank was 6 years 9 months. The 6 volts still had full capacity but they over heated during heavy charging due to internal resistance. I guess I could have kept them longer but the alternator shutdown on batt temp and was annoying. The casings were buldging when I pulled them. My house bank gets cycled 20% about 50 times a year.

 

[Bud]

I replaced my house bank with 560AH lifepo4 this summer. 280AH EVE lifepo4 are available for less than $1,000 shipped for 8 cells on Alibaba.

I kept the legacy chargers [Freedom 25 & Promariner 1220] and OEM alternators. I added a couple of Blue Sea 7700 for $100 each to act as low and high voltage disconnects; a used Sterling AB 130amp charger for $75 to regulate the alternator and the REC ABMS for battery management -~ $700.

The Promariner 1220 can be custom programmed. Even the old Freedom 25 has confg settings that end bulk @ 14v with a 13.1v float which is below normal operating voltage for the lifepo4.

That's it. Less than $2,500 for a safe, fully functional 560AH system.

I'm on a mooring and leave the 3g security system and refrigerator running. Those items consume less than 200AH per week.

Drop ins are nice - but some time and elbow grease will give you a good or better system for less.

There are many well reviewed sellers on Alibaba. These cells may not be first quality according to the manufacturer - but are not "defective" either. The competent sellers match the cells for capacity and resistance.

So far, I'm very satisfied with the lifepo4 cells. I've already drawn over 18,000AH from them since installation with a mix of full & partial charge / discharge cycles. They just work.

I like this Sterling AB 130amp charger it solves several of my problems.

 

[twistedtree]

I like this Sterling AB 130amp charger it solves several of my problems.

They definitely do for lower powered charging systems. But they aren't practical for higher power charging systems, which in your case would be anything over 130A. And since LFP can accept higher charge rates, there is a lot of motivation to do so which quickly pushes you past what a DC/-DC charger can handle.

 

[CharlieJ]

@PauHana #37:
From the BIM manual-

Once the batteries have
charged for one hour, the Li-BIM will isolate the batteries to prevent overcharging, and will only reconnect the batteries for charging if one of the batteries drops to approximately 80% charge, and the other is being charged.

This sounds like quite a restriction in obtaining a full charge of the Coach (LFP) bank quickly.

 

[Pau Hana]

@PauHana #37:
From the BIM manual-


This sounds like quite a restriction in obtaining a full charge of the Coach (LFP) bank quickly.

Hence- my research is ongoing...

 

[fryedaze]

Are you saying you deplete your batteries to 20% or use 20% of the available amp-hours?

We use 160-220 amphrs of a 940 amp-hr bank. So about 20%

 

[Bud]

They definitely do for lower powered charging systems. But they aren't practical for higher power charging systems, which in your case would be anything over 130A. And since LFP can accept higher charge rates, there is a lot of motivation to do so which quickly pushes you past what a DC/-DC charger can handle.

There website claims,
"Available in 12 volt / 130 amp, 210 amp or 400 amp output models.
Available in 24 volt / 100 amp or 200 amp models."
I do not like loosing some of the redundancy i have for charging through isolaters but I am already thinking of ways to solve that.


Bud

 

[Jon H]

https://www.superyachtnews.com/fleet/fire-on-board-lady-vanilla


"While it must be noted that there will be a period of investigation before any conclusions can be drawn from the fire on board Lady Vanilla, if the initial assumptions prove to be correct that the fire was caused by an overheating battery, then Lady Vanilla would become the most recent in a series of lithium-ion battery-related incidents. Indeed, it has long been accepted that these batteries pose a serious fire risk on board superyachts if the various systems that require them are not stored and maintained properly."


It will be interesting to see what the investigation finds.

 

[Bud]

https://www.superyachtnews.com/fleet/fire-on-board-lady-vanilla


"While it must be noted that there will be a period of investigation before any conclusions can be drawn from the fire on board Lady Vanilla, if the initial assumptions prove to be correct that the fire was caused by an overheating battery, then Lady Vanilla would become the most recent in a series of lithium-ion battery-related incidents. Indeed, it has long been accepted that these batteries pose a serious fire risk on board superyachts if the various systems that require them are not stored and maintained properly."


It will be interesting to see what the investigation finds.

Wow thats a reason to downshift on this project.

 

[twistedtree]

There website claims,
"Available in 12 volt / 130 amp, 210 amp or 400 amp output models.
Available in 24 volt / 100 amp or 200 amp models."
I do not like loosing some of the redundancy i have for charging through isolaters but I am already thinking of ways to solve that.


Bud

Thanks for pointing that out.


With any LFP system, I think the preferred approach is to adjust the various charge sources so they work with LFP. If you already have an external alternator regulator like a Balmar, this is easily done.


This particular Sterling device is essentially a way to get external alternator regulation while keeping an alternators internal regulator. It's clever, for sure. But I think the preferred path is to just convert the alternator for external regulation. Any alternator shop can do it. But if not practical to do so, the Sterling product is a good work-around.

 

[twistedtree]

https://www.superyachtnews.com/fleet/fire-on-board-lady-vanilla


"While it must be noted that there will be a period of investigation before any conclusions can be drawn from the fire on board Lady Vanilla, if the initial assumptions prove to be correct that the fire was caused by an overheating battery, then Lady Vanilla would become the most recent in a series of lithium-ion battery-related incidents. Indeed, it has long been accepted that these batteries pose a serious fire risk on board superyachts if the various systems that require them are not stored and maintained properly."


It will be interesting to see what the investigation finds.

100% speculative reporting, and completely irresponsible. Did the boat even have lithium Ion batteries, and if so, what kind? It makes a huge difference.

 

[Bud]

Thanks for pointing that out.


With any LFP system, I think the preferred approach is to adjust the various charge sources so they work with LFP. If you already have an external alternator regulator like a Balmar, this is easily done.


This particular Sterling device is essentially a way to get external alternator regulation while keeping an alternators internal regulator. It's clever, for sure. But I think the preferred path is to just convert the alternator for external regulation. Any alternator shop can do it. But if not practical to do so, the Sterling product is a good work-around.

It would not be to difficult to change the alternators to external regulation. I have not fully researched yet, but I do not see any snags. It was more the acomadation of keeping the start batteries lead acid and just converting the house batteries to LFP. I would have to dedicate one aternator to house and one to starting. To me that seems like a loss of redudancy for charging/starting. Right now I have 2 alternators charging 2 start batteries through an isolator and a series parralel switch/relay, so I can loose either battery or either alternator and still start and run either engine.

 

[twistedtree]

It would not be to difficult to change the alternators to external regulation. I have not fully researched yet, but I do not see any snags. It was more the acomadation of keeping the start batteries lead acid and just converting the house batteries to LFP. I would have to dedicate one aternator to house and one to starting. To me that seems like a loss of redudancy for charging/starting. Right now I have 2 alternators charging 2 start batteries through an isolator and a series parralel switch/relay, so I can loose either battery or either alternator and still start and run either engine.

Another approach is to install a DC-DC charger to top off the start batteries from the house bank, and direct all your alternator charging to your house bank. This is what I have done on the last two boats. The house bank is typically what need all the juice, not the start bank. To me, sending alternator output to a start bank, and using a DC-DC charger or ACR to charge the house bank has got it all backwards.

 

[CharlieJ]

Indeed, it has long been accepted that these batteries pose a serious fire risk on board superyachts if the various systems that require them are not stored and maintained properly.

This is pure bunk! It has not been accepted at all. Lithium ion batteries in general and lithium iron phosphate batteries in particular, are safe if they have a functioning BMS and a functioning operator.

 

[Bud]

Another approach is to install a DC-DC charger to top off the start batteries from the house bank, and direct all your alternator charging to your house bank. This is what I have done on the last two boats. The house bank is typically what need all the juice, not the start bank. To me, sending alternator output to a start bank, and using a DC-DC charger or ACR to charge the house bank has got it all backwards.

The house bank also gets charged with the two alternators. the battery that is the lowest which typically is the house bank will draw the most current. The start batteries do not draw much because as you point out they are only used for starting (and high water pump) the house bank does the heavy lifting. Maybe I am missing something. Is there alot of loss internal in these dc to dc chargers like an inverter?

 

[Bud]

Another approach is to install a DC-DC charger to top off the start batteries from the house bank, and direct all your alternator charging to your house bank. This is what I have done on the last two boats. The house bank is typically what need all the juice, not the start bank. To me, sending alternator output to a start bank, and using a DC-DC charger or ACR to charge the house bank has got it all backwards.

The more I think about it the more I like it. Have both aternators ext regulated
(so they would be the same to have a spare backup) to charge the house bank. Then have a dc to dc charger in parralel to charge the starter bank. I can keep the isolater and the series parralel switch.

 

[Bud]

This is pure bunk! It has not been accepted at all. Lithium ion batteries in general and lithium iron phosphate batteries in particular, are safe if they have a functioning BMS and a functioning operator.

I have very little experience with thes new lithium batteries and I do not know exactly which kind this was. My brothers vacation rental across the canal from us had an event where the vacation renters left a drone charging and went out on the boat for the day. I got a call because the neighbor said the smoke detectors were going off. This is what I found.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=108565&stc=1&d=1601939531

 

[twistedtree]

There is a huge difference between LFP and all the other forms of Lithium Ion that are used in computers, portable tools, drones, cars, scooters, etc. LFP is the only form of lithium ion that I would ever use for a house bank. The other types have no place on a boat, in my opinion, as they do indeed pose a fire and safety risk if something goes wrong. I would suggest that things like drones, scooters, power tools, and other gadgets with more volatile lithium ion batteries NEVER be left on a charger once they have finished charging. Charge them, then take them off. I've mostly gotten in the habit of doing this at home as well.

 

[folivier]

For your perusal:

 

[Bud]

LFP does the best

 

[sbman]

Hence- my research is ongoing...

Will you be posting a thread on the results of your research and the installation of your new battery system?

I am always interested in the details of these installations. As a side note, a boat I've worked on has a carbon-foam lead acid bank. All charging sources charge the house bank and a Balmar DC-DC charger is used to charge the start batteries. The Balmar DC-DC has some limitations, but you mentioned a similar design as a potential for your project. Have you worked out the layout of your new system?

 

[Pau Hana]

Will you be posting a thread on the results of your research and the installation of your new battery system?

I am always interested in the details of these installations. As a side note, a boat I've worked on has a carbon-foam lead acid bank. All charging sources charge the house bank and a Balmar DC-DC charger is used to charge the start batteries. The Balmar DC-DC has some limitations, but you mentioned a similar design as a potential for your project. Have you worked out the layout of your new system?

I've been distracted with my father in law being not so well, but I believe I have it all worked out:

Scenario A: the alts are changed out to 105Ah Lee-Niceville units that will fit my 3208 engines, externally regulated into a combiner. The combiner output will connect to the LI-BIM 225 unit that will regulate the charging of both house and start banks. On shorepower, the inverter charger will feed the house bank, and the start bank will be charged by the current 40A charger- or I may add a DC-DC chager and eliminate the 40A charger.

Scenario 2: The combiner output will feed the house bank, which will then charge the start bank via a DC-DC charger. On shorepower, the inver/charger will feed the house bank, and the start bank will be charged by the same DC-DC charger.

I'm hoping to have it all on a schematic this weekend. What drawing tool is recommended to spec this out?

 

[Comodave]

I got the three Lion Energy batteries. I am going to put a 120 amp alternator on the starboard engine to just charge the house bank and use the port engine to charge the start batteries with an ACR. I built a tray to hold them. They are very secure and have no movement at all. I used a 3/8”x3/4” copper as bus bars to connect them in parallel. The Lion batteries have terminals that unscrew so the bus bars come into full contact with the terminals. I put shrink wrap on the bus bars to protect against shorts. I fashioned terminal covers out of clear shrink wrap so the bolts and wire connections will be covered as well. A S/S ratchet strap holds the batteries down. The tray will have 1 1/2” rigid foam insulation under it to keep heat from the engine room migrating into the battery compartment. I am going to put in vents low and high with a 50 mAmp fan on the top blowing out to help keep the compartment cooler. The fan will run continuously during the summer and be off during winter storage. The photos are upside down when I upload them. I tried fixing them but no go. And I have already disassembled the battery tray so I can’t take new photos until I install them during the winter.