A lithium battery question.

[Streff]

I see that Renogy is running a pretty good sale on Lithium batteries. Currently, I have 3x 260ah 12V Fullriver for house batteries. Each one of the Fullriver have a ton of Peak discharge current (for 3-5s) to cope with Bow & Stern thrusters demands. The 200ah Renogy lithium seems to only have 200ah discharge.. my question is would 3x 200ah lithium, connected in parallel, stack their discharge current capacity. So that the 3 batteries can provide 600ah.

These progressive thrusters are 48V but I have an upconverter, so to speak, to take 12V and turns it into 48volts. The bow thruster pulls 300amp per manual.. I have not done a field test to measure the actual draw but it’s on the list.

I have sent Renogy tech support an email but it’s taking a bit to get a response. My main worry with lithium is the BMS disengaging, due to a high draw for example, in the most inopportune time while docking or such. My house batteries also power the thrusters.

Any input or ideas would be much appreciated

Thank you

 

[Bacchus]

I dont think LiFePO4 are best suited / recommended for starting, thruster, windlass use if I recall correctly from this excellent article.
https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

 

[CharlieJ]

Concur with Bacchus Comment #2.

 

[Comodave]

LiFePO4 batteries are generally considered best for house banks, not starting batteries. Starting batteries are what you want for thrusters.

 

[Iggy]

I am changing over to Li and I talked to the Rep over using my bow thruster.

I was told as long as the thruster does not excide what the batteries can put out. But the lower the better. My thruster pulls about 300A and the 3 batteries that I will be using can handle 450A continues amps. I estimate that the normal load with the boat running should be in the 35amp range. So all should be good! Plus the engine will be running, putting out to the DC to DC charger 60 amps.

If not, its on them and there giving me the specs to set in the charger/inverter that I have.

 

[catalinajack]

I am changing over to Li and I talked to the Rep over using my bow thruster.

I was told as long as the thruster does not excide what the batteries can put out. But the lower the better. My thruster pulls about 300A and the 3 batteries that I will be using can handle 450A continues amps. I estimate that the normal load with the boat running should be in the 35amp range. So all should be good! Plus the engine will be running, putting out to the DC to DC charger 60 amps.

If not, its on them and there giving me the specs to set in the charger/inverter that I have.

It's on them? On whom? Good luck trying to get recompense if it fails. You already have a DC-DC charger. Use a lead acid battery for your thruster and sleep well.

 

[mvweebles]

Renogy has some of the worst technical support on the planet. Read through their forum and you'll get a clue. If they do eventually answer an inquiry, their accuracy rate is pretty poor and will blame everything but their product for the fault. Personally, I'd go elsewhere but if you just, buy via Amazon to reduce headache if return is needed

Secondly, using LiFePO4 for thrusters is not a great use of their capabilities. As you noted, the BMS limits discharge amps. Further, sitting for months and months at 100% charge is mildly hard on LiFePO4 which is why they are almost always shipped by manufacturer at around 80% charge.

Finally, hi-amp/low-duration of engine start, thruster, or windlass is a perfect use-case for FLA of AGM (my preference). It's not just that you're wasting potential, but LiFePO4 is the wrong tool for the job.

Good luck with whatever you decide.

Peter

 

[dannc]

I dont think LiFePO4 are best suited / recommended for starting, thruster, windlass use if I recall correctly from this excellent article.
https://marinehowto.com/drop-in-lifepo4-be-an-educated-consumer/

My understanding from Rod's link, was that drop in LiFePo batteries had issues in general, but especially for thrusters, windlass, etc, high current usage. However, some LiFePo batteries can be used for these high current applications. From the link,

Below is the BMS “switch” used by Mastervolt on their MLI series LiFePO4 batteries. It can handle bow thrusters, large windlass motors, massive inverter-chargers, massive alternators. etc.. The ML-RBS switch is rated for 500A continuous, 700A for 5 full minutes and 1450A for as long as 30 seconds.

Later,
Dan

 

[twistedtree]

Just go based on the ratings for whatever battery you plan to use. For greater capacity, parallel more batteries.

The current limit is typically dictated by the type of disconnect used in the BMS. Some have higher current carrying capacity than others. There are also battery heating and longevity implications for sustained high current use, but that’s very unlikely to be a factor in a house bank, even if also powering thrusters and/or a windlass.

 

[Iggy]

It's on them? On whom? Good luck trying to get recompense if it fails. You already have a DC-DC charger. Use a lead acid battery for your thruster and sleep well.

I have informed the Rep as to the installation. Giving them details and they are giving me the setting to the chargers. If the batteries die or not live up to the warranties, than its on them. Another reason going with this manufacturer, their located 15 miles from my house.

 

[catalinajack]

I have informed the Rep as to the installation. Giving them details and they are giving me the setting to the chargers. If the batteries die or not live up to the warranties, than its on them. Another reason going with this manufacturer, their located 15 miles from my house.

Good luck with that. They could assert that you didn't follow their recommendations or used them improperly and then what. Sue? You are intending to use these batteries in a way that virtually no one recommends and is totally unnecesary. Why do that when you have a DC-DC charger? Makes no sense to me but, as I said, good luck. So, if four years from now if the batteries crap out do you really believe you are going to collect on that warranty? Not a chance.

 

[Streff]

Thank you all very much for the replies and input. Your time and ideas are so appreciated. Finally, I did receive a call from Renogy’s tech support. Although the person was polite and agreeable, he was not in tune with their products and had little technical knowledge about my specific questions. After checking out the most recent reviews, I am going to walk away from purchasing Li batteries from Renogy for the thrusters at least. I have been chatting with the lithionics folks for the last year and they definitely understand the demands of thrusters and such. They now have a high amp BMS that would work well. Things get a bit pricey with Lithionics very quickly but their stuff is top notch.

I did buy Renogy rigid solar panels 3 years ago for a new Class B RV and they worked great for 18months then sold the RV. I am looking to install flexible solars this season on the boat and I may try Renogy’s 175W units with a Victron charge controller.

I still would like to upgrade to Li batteries for house loads, not involving bow or stern thrusters. I can keep 2 x 8D AGM for thrusters on a dedicated charger. Just need to rework the wiring and evaluate space availability.

Thanks again so much

Streff

 

[Simi 60]

I have informed the Rep as to the installation. Giving them details and they are giving me the setting to the chargers. If the batteries die or not live up to the warranties, than its on them. Another reason going with this manufacturer, their located 15 miles from my house.

What manufacturers would that be?
I was under the impression that lifepo4 cells and lith cells in general was a near 100% China thing.

 

[mvweebles]

I have informed the Rep as to the installation. Giving them details and they are giving me the setting to the chargers. If the batteries die or not live up to the warranties, than its on them. Another reason going with this manufacturer, their located 15 miles from my house.

I'll echo CatalinaJack's skepticism. Last summer I purchased a 2000W PSW inverter from Renogy for my camper van. I installed within hours of receipt and it immediately started throwing bizarre over-temp errors even though ambient temps were in the mid-50's (summer place is in mountains of Colorado). I had to hound Renogy to respond. I sent them screen-shots and short videos of the monitoring screens. Mind you, I had nearly new twin 6v golf cart batteries. When I sent screen shots showing the battery voltage was 12.8V. You know what they said? "Your batteries are dead - you need to replace them. Not an inverter problem." When I sent them their own blog post that said 12.8v is 100% charged, crickets. The most frustrating part was they would say something crazy like this, I would respond immediately, then it would take 3-5 days and many emails for them to respond. Rinse/Repeat. It took weeks to do what would have taken about 20-minutes in a phone call.

I finally got them to RMA the inverter, but I had to file a complaint with the BBB and my credit card company to get their attention.

Do not underestimate the ability of a bad actor to screw you. In my experience, Renogy is poster-child example of a bad actor.

Peter

 

[Comodave]

What manufacturers would that be?
I was under the impression that lifepo4 cells and lith cells in general was a near 100% China thing.

Read Rod Collins review of LiFePO4 batteries. Some are much better than others.

 

[Simi 60]

Read Rod Collins review of LiFePO4 batteries. Some are much better than others.

Yeah but that doesn't answer the question on the "American made" batteries.

 

[Bacchus]

Yeah but that doesn't answer the question on the "American made" batteries.

He addresses that very issue. Worth a read if you have any interest in LFP.
The other guy doing video reviews that RC cites ( Sr memory and forget his name) is also very good at pointing out good and bad manuf based on autopsies of many batteries.
If anyone is contemplating LFP the message is you better be doing your homework and/or having a pro do it or at least review your system design ( including manuf)

 

[Iggy]

What manufacturers would that be?
I was under the impression that lifepo4 cells and lith cells in general was a near 100% China thing.

Just to be clear, I hope? I think most Li are made in China. But thats not to say that the cells are shipped here in the U.S. and the finial battery made up here. For that matter, the BMS could be made here too?

Anyways, I am going with Kilovault (Kilovault.com) and they are out of Boxborough Mass. Their batteries are Bluetooth and I am thinking of using an old tablet to monitor them for the first month or two. I do have a Victron battery monitor too, but using Bluetooth will monitor each of the three batteries separately. See what happens using the thruster too.

In Boston the winter lows are around 10 to 20F. Its a little odd but it can hit zero. The storage spec are -4F and some Li do not go that low.

They have a internal heater, which is Iggy proof. So if its below freezing, I can turn the charger on. Than the battery will warm up using the charging current. Once the BMS knows the temp has come up, it will charge the batteries.

Warranty is 36 month replacement, from 37 to 90 months pro-rated. Not the greatest, but better than most. PLUS, for me I am not paying for the shipping under warranty. Its roughly a 45 minute drive. I am hoping, if one does go bad I can have it replaced in one day. If I have to wait an hour or two for them to test the bad battery, OK. Who knows, I might have to come back in a day or two, but. It beats shipping them out of state which could take days and days for the replacement, plus the cost.

 

[slowgoesit]

I'll echo CatalinaJack's skepticism. Last summer I purchased a 2000W PSW inverter from Renogy for my camper van. I installed within hours of receipt and it immediately started throwing bizarre over-temp errors even though ambient temps were in the mid-50's (summer place is in mountains of Colorado). I had to hound Renogy to respond. I sent them screen-shots and short videos of the monitoring screens. Mind you, I had nearly new twin 6v golf cart batteries. When I sent screen shots showing the battery voltage was 12.8V. You know what they said? "Your batteries are dead - you need to replace them. Not an inverter problem." When I sent them their own blog post that said 12.8v is 100% charged, crickets. The most frustrating part was they would say something crazy like this, I would respond immediately, then it would take 3-5 days and many emails for them to respond. Rinse/Repeat. It took weeks to do what would have taken about 20-minutes in a phone call.

I finally got them to RMA the inverter, but I had to file a complaint with the BBB and my credit card company to get their attention.

Do not underestimate the ability of a bad actor to screw you. In my experience, Renogy is poster-child example of a bad actor.

Peter

Peter, thanks so much for your post! I'm actively in the market for 6 rigid solar cells in the 330 to 450 watt range, and Renology was on my list. Now it's not. LG's are looking good though . . . Already got my batteries, although I purchased them last year, but still have not installed them. If I knew then what I know now, I would have purchased something different . . . but we'll see . . . .

 

[mvweebles]

Peter, thanks so much for your post! I'm actively in the market for 6 rigid solar cells in the 330 to 450 watt range, and Renology was on my list. Now it's not. LG's are looking good though . . . Already got my batteries, although I purchased them last year, but still have not installed them. If I knew then what I know now, I would have purchased something different . . . but we'll see . . . .

I don't think Renogy makes larger panels anymore. I purchased a couple 325w panels from them 4 years ago (another crazy experience). Last year when I was looking for 12volt nominal for my camper van, looked like Renogy went to smaller panels only. Btw I ended up purchasing 160w panels from Newpowa, built in Vietnam. They seem fine. The old Renogy panels are on a friend's off grid cabin in Wyoming and seem to be working fine too.

Good luck.

Peter

 

[Simi 60]

He addresses that very issue. Worth a read if you have any interest in LFP.
The other guy doing video reviews that RC cites ( Sr memory and forget his name) is also very good at pointing out good and bad manuf based on autopsies of many batteries.
If anyone is contemplating LFP the message is you better be doing your homework and/or having a pro do it or at least review your system design ( including manuf)

Yes I am well aware some are better than others but my point is, that the cells and likely the componentry still comes from China

I have a tough time attributing Australian made or American made or any country for that matter to anything that is not actually made there.

As an example......
IKEA furniture is not made in Australia simply because I assembled it here.

I have great quality Chinese made cells and BMS in my own build.
I assembled it in Australia but it's still a Chinese battery

 

[Bacchus]

Yes I am well aware some are better than others but my point is, that the cells and likely the componentry still comes from China

I have a tough time attributing Australian made or American made or any country for that matter to anything that is not actually made there.

I have great quality Chinese made cells and BMS in my own build.
I assembled it in Australia but it's still a Chinese battery

If you read the details RC fully acknowledges the fact that near 100% of cells are mfg in China. There is more to the "batty" yhan the cell and thats where a lot if the variables enter. It's the BMS and the quality of the package, including wiring that can differentiate higher vs lower quality. "Componrnts" sourced from China but "assembled" in USA, Australia, other can make a difference and better to deal with a company in your home country that trying to get any satisfaction half way around the world. From RCs write up...

"Purchasing- Rule#1

Rule number one for purchasing* lithium iron phosphate drop-in batteries is that you always want to buy from a well established US or North American company!(This site is read world wide but is still a US based company. (Insert Germany UK, Norway, Sweeden etc. for USA), even if that company is having the batteries manufactured in China.*Hint:*All lithium iron phosphate cells are manufactured in China. Some US manufacturers such as Battleborn choose to import the components from China and assemble them here in the US. This allows them to better control assembly quality. You want, and need a presence here on North American soil (insert your country here)* to ensure that the company can stand behind the product and you are protected by US (your country) consumer laws..

Most of the “bad” images you will see below are what happens when aDIY attempts to become the importer of LFP batteries.These sorts of issues are almost non-existent *where a decent US company is behind the importation design & manufacturer selection process."

If you choose to DIY or disregard the above it just means expect to be on your own and have little / no recourse or support if something goes wrong.
Everyone gets to choose their own destiny. Just realize it's not an equal playing field nor a mature commodity product folks are deciding & buying.

 

[Simi 60]

..

Most of the “bad” images you will see below are what happens when aDIY attempts to become the importer of LFP batteries.These sorts of issues are almost non-existent *where a decent US company is behind the importation design & manufacturer selection process."

I disagree
I would suggest the problems that you see are from users who don't do any research and buy from some random, cheapest seller on eBay, AliExpress or Alibaba.

If research is done you will find the well respected sellers of A Grade cells on the above platforms and have a good experience with premium quality product
Likely from the same seller that the US, Australian etc seller gets them from

If you choose to DIY or disregard the above it just means expect to be on your own and have little / no recourse or support if something goes wrong.
Everyone gets to choose their own destiny. Just realize it's not an equal playing field nor a mature commodity product folks are deciding & buying

.

Yep
If I had paid an Australian company for what I have
I also would have paid $15,000 vs $5000
For that sort of price premium I am happy to go it alone

Likely, if there ever was an issue I would have to get the product back to them at great expense
Then be without a battery while they try and get the maker of the product in china to come to the party on warranty, so big delays
Or, they pro rata the price and give you a reduced refund.
Have already read about it happening in various forums.
Some even have this pro data haircut on their site
https://www.aussiebatteries.com.au/warranty-information/

As we live aboard and cruise full time it's far easier for us to shut down the 1 of 3 offending batteries, diagnose the problem and rectify myself.
A new BMS or a new cell is only a couple of hundred bucks.

 

[Delfin]

If you read the details RC fully acknowledges the fact that near 100% of cells are mfg in China. There is more to the "batty" yhan the cell and thats where a lot if the variables enter. It's the BMS and the quality of the package, including wiring that can differentiate higher vs lower quality. "Componrnts" sourced from China but "assembled" in USA, Australia, other can make a difference and better to deal with a company in your home country that trying to get any satisfaction half way around the world. From RCs write up...

"Purchasing- Rule#1

Rule number one for purchasing* lithium iron phosphate drop-in batteries is that you always want to buy from a well established US or North American company!(This site is read world wide but is still a US based company. (Insert Germany UK, Norway, Sweeden etc. for USA), even if that company is having the batteries manufactured in China.*Hint:*All lithium iron phosphate cells are manufactured in China. Some US manufacturers such as Battleborn choose to import the components from China and assemble them here in the US. This allows them to better control assembly quality. You want, and need a presence here on North American soil (insert your country here)* to ensure that the company can stand behind the product and you are protected by US (your country) consumer laws..

Most of the “bad” images you will see below are what happens when aDIY attempts to become the importer of LFP batteries.These sorts of issues are almost non-existent *where a decent US company is behind the importation design & manufacturer selection process."

If you choose to DIY or disregard the above it just means expect to be on your own and have little / no recourse or support if something goes wrong.
Everyone gets to choose their own destiny. Just realize it's not an equal playing field nor a mature commodity product folks are deciding & buying.

Important to a successful LFP battery is that the individual cells be matched for impedance. Since they are so efficient if one cell is slightly above or below the others, it will give up or take current from the others. Top or bottom balancing can be done to help, but that doesn't change internal impedance. My guess is that some manufacturers of finished batteries do a better job of making sure the finished product is composed of cells that will play nicely together. Like most products manufactured in China, like the raw cells, you tend to get what you ask for and pay for.

 

[Simi 60]

Yep and our supplier of cells provided the test sheet for our matched and batched cells that were all pretty much identical.
As you can see, there is nothing between them and all 3 batteries are pretty much the same with a .003v difference between cells.
(Screencap taken today)

 

[Bacchus]

SIMI
I dont believe anybody is classifying you as an average buyer of LFP, certainly not my intent. You obviously understand what is important and covered your bases.
I think the messages are intended for the less well informed potential buyer of LFP that reads forum hype and simply jumps on the bandwagon thinking its easy when it's not.
I dont get the message from CMS that nobody is capable but rather its not as simple as dropping in other chemistry battys to replace what's there and in need of replacing. Your comments reinforce the CMS points IMO.

 

[sunchaser]

Reality for some of us who have a dirt house, other interests than boating and a significant other is spelled out in the below real world conversation:

" Honey, after hearing about those expensive boating batteries on TF it seems we can get by OK without them. I would really like you to think about a Sleep Number bed. Our daughters (who are medical professionals) both just got them and are ecstatic with the upsides. Let's go look at them, there is a wonderful restaurant near the store ---."

There went the LiFePO4 setup for this year.

 

[Jeff F]

These progressive thrusters are 48V but I have an upconverter, so to speak, to take 12V and turns it into 48volts. The bow thruster pulls 300amp per manual.. I have not done a field test to measure the actual draw but it’s on the list.

I'm going to guess that the 300 amp spec is at 48v. At 12v that would be 1200 amps.

 

[hrk]

Read Rod Collins review of LiFePO4 batteries. Some are much better than others.

Where would I find Rod Collins review you mentioned?
I am doing a new build of a boat and thinking of using LFP batteries.

HRK

 

[Bacchus]

Where would I find Rod Collins review you mentioned?

I am doing a new build of a boat and thinking of using LFP batteries.



HRK

See post #2