Lithium battery & component suggestions?

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I think their web stuff lacks finesse for sure. Not even all that computer friendly, let alone phone friendly. Here is a pdf of a Low Voltage system spec page. You add modules into a cabinet to get the capacity you want.
 

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Like I said, never mind, maybe I'll remember to have a look when I get to a PC, but I doubt of interest to me anyway.
 
Yes that worked.

But at ~50V and 180kg per unit, not likely to be applicable as a House bank for most boats here.

Thanks though!
 
The OP, Twisted, was looking for a system for an off-grid house, and had a 48V setup already. So it should plug-n-play for that based on quoted working voltage range.

For boats, I agree that you would have to be starting a major electrical refit due to need to go with 48V inverter etc. But I can imagine it working well if you were running largely AC appliances.
 
Yes, I admit I avoid AC like the plague, and think I'm also a bit allergic to higher voltage DC.

And love tinkering, so prefer DIY even without the cost savings.

But that's just me.
 
The OP, Twisted, was looking for a system for an off-grid house, and had a 48V setup already. So it should plug-n-play for that based on quoted working voltage range.

For boats, I agree that you would have to be starting a major electrical refit due to need to go with 48V inverter etc. But I can imagine it working well if you were running largely AC appliances.

Correct. The house is 48V, so the BYD could work there. But the boat is 24V, so not a fit unless I wanted to switch to 48V, which I have actually considered doing for the inverter system. Bu I don't really want three DC power systems (12V, 24V, 48V), and it's not looking practical to get rid of 24V. Plus 48V engine alternators are a rare beast. So the plan of record is to stay 24V.

The BYD box is very similar to the LG Resu, and Hopkee (sp) has one too. There appears to be a (somewhat) standardized interface between inverter/charger and battery module to enable system control. I'm trying to find details on how all this works, as it could be quite interesting.
 
It's been a while since this thread was active, and I received a PM from a member today asking about it, so here's an update.


For me, the jury is still out on LFP for my boat. But I am moving ahead with it for my house as a trial and experiment to help determine what I do on the boat.


For battery management, and I use the term VERY broadly, I see three alternative.


1) Buy a fully packaged system. To me, Victron is the only vendor with the track record and staying power to be considered. I definitely don't want to buy something from a vendor who will be gone in 5 years, and Victron is the only one who has been around for a long time. MasterVolt has been around, but has been resold I think three times now, and that is typically a complete reset for a technology company. So to me, they are now no more proven than someone like HousePower, who no longer exist. Also, in the US, their tech support is non-existant. The problem with Victron is the cost. At their prices, which are not out of line with the market, it's just not worth it to me. I can go through a lot of sets of AGMs for the cost of Victron, and not take on any of the risk.


2) Buy bare cells and get a BMS from someone else. To me, this suffers all the same issues as #1, primarily that all the BMS vendors are tiny, unproven companies. I can just see a BMS module failing in two years, the company is gone, and I now have to replace everything because of one small, broken part. No thanks. But #2 does get the cost down to a more sensible place.


3) Buy bare cells and do my own BMS using an industrial PLC. This is the path I'm taking. All the components are available off the shelf from a plethora of manufacturer who have been around for an eternity. So repair down the road is not an issue. It will require some programming on my part, but PLC programming is pretty simple and understandable by any industrial automation person. And costs are reasonable.


I think I have sorted out the PLC (programmable logic controller) part. For a variety of reasons I have picked IDEC for the core PLC, and have been experimenting with a variety of applications for the boat, one of which is a BMS for LFP batteries.


The first stumbling block was per-cell voltage monitoring. There are about a zillion voltage sensing modules available for PLCs, but all of them want to sense voltages referenced off the same ground. That doesn't work to sense voltage on each of a bunch of series wired cells, or at a minimum you would lose a lot of measurement accuracy doing it that way. The issue is that each cell can be measured accurately with about a 5V measurement range. That part if easy. But each successive cell spans a voltage that's higher and higher relative to the battery pack's ground, which is also the ground for the PLC. So, using simplified numbers, the first battery is 0v to 3V, the second is 3V to 6V, the third is 6V to 9V, etc. The measurement range is around 3V for each battery, but the reference voltage climbs with each successive battery. I have only been able to find one voltage sensing device that will handle this, and am about to test it out in real life to see if it works as expected.


The next stumbling block, which I was tripping over at the same time as the voltage sensing issue, is actually getting batteries. CALB, who seem to be the most prevalent, don't answer emails. And all their dealers are little two man shops of people creating experimental electric cars and the like. Talk about an unsustainable business.... And to add to my concerns, most want pre-payment for batteries that are not even in stock in the US. My expectation when buying is that I place an order, and maybe there is a hold for an amount on my credit card, and I get charged when the order ships. In fact, I think there are US laws prohibiting charging cards before a product ships. The excuse has been that the dealers need to pay CALB before they will ship, so I need to pay them. Yikes. We are talking about dealers who do not have payment terms with their suppliers, and who need me to float them the money. And the CALB batteries were not available in stock, but due "mid June". None of this inspired confidence, and made me wonder whether I should bother at all with LFP. This is a bit of an experiment, granted, but it's also 100% of the power for my house, so I actually depend on it just about as much as on the boat.


I told all the dealers to give me a call when there were batteries available, in stock, in the US, ready for shipment. In the mean time, I started looking at Winston who are the other prevalent manufacturer. It was even worse. The only way I could find to buy them was to order from Alibaba, and I'm simply not going to do that with an $8000 order. And if that's how I need to get batteries to provide primary power for my house, well, need I say more?


This totally boot-leg supply chain for batteries sent me back looking at Victron. They claimed to have product in stock in the US ready to ship. But cost would be 2x to 3x, and I once again asked myself why I'm not just buying another pile of lead acid batteries. And that remains a really good question, and one I am continuously evaluating in the back of my head.


Come mid June, only one of the dealers contacted me to say batteries were now available. I was up to my eyeballs at the time trying to figure out the voltage sensing issue, so waited to respond. Once the voltage sense challenge was under control, I decide to pull the trigger on batteries. In a very uncharacteristic moment, I though "hey, it's only money", and ordered the batteries. Now, and few days later, I still don't have a shipment tracking number......
 
aquionenergy filed for bankruptcy in July 2017 and all warranties are void. Watch out!
 
Thanks for the update Peter. I look forward to hearing how your battery order goes, hope it proceeds smoothly.
......Once the voltage sense challenge was under control, I decide to pull the trigger on batteries. In a very uncharacteristic moment, I though "hey, it's only money", and ordered the batteries. Now, and few days later, I still don't have a shipment tracking number......
 
Our Lithionics 600 amp, 24vdc bank is working as advertised. Take out 300 amps, put them back in at whatever output of charging current you have. The genset runs a couple of hours a day if we're not moving, so we charge, make water, do laundry, etc. Amazingly stable voltage throughout usage - from 26.7 vdc when charged and rested to 26 vdc at which point they are around 60% discharged. Charge until the voltage reaches 28.2 volts, and the current acceptance drops to 5 - 8% of capacity and turn off the charge source. The acceptance rate is about 99% except for the last 10 minutes of the charge cycle. Remarkable technology and we are very happy with the system.
 
What did that cost?

Did you install yourself?

If you're asking me, $10k more than replacement AGMs. I had someone else install them, but only because I had other things to do. Straightforward, with all charging equipment remaining in place. Just a savings of a lot of space and significantly reduced charging times and significantly increased longevity. Is it worth it? Beats me, but I'm happy.
 
Delfin, I'm really intrigued by this.

Few questions please:

1) Which Lithionics batteries in what configuration do you have?

2) I gather the same AGM alternator regulator(s), and AGM battery charger(s) remain in place. Do they have settings for LFP also, or do their charge settings remain on AGM type batteries?

3) What model regulator(s) and charger(s) do you have?

I replaced 1600# of AGM Northstars with 270# of Lithionics.......

In my case the installation was pretty much just remove one set of batteries and replace them with the Lithionics.

......Straightforward, with all charging equipment remaining in place.

......but so far, so good.
 
Delfin, I'm really intrigued by this.

Few questions please:

1) Which Lithionics batteries in what configuration do you have?

2) I gather the same AGM alternator regulator(s), and AGM battery charger(s) remain in place. Do they have settings for LFP also, or do their charge settings remain on AGM type batteries?

3) What model regulator(s) and charger(s) do you have?

2 X 300 amp 24vdc Lithionics
Lithionics battery management system
Balmar 624 regulator
Ample Power 130 amp 24vdc alternator, throttled to 100 amps via Balmar amp manager
Trace 4000 charger/inverter, 100 amps
Blue Seas battery combiner - no combine, auto combine and manual combine
Link 2000 battery monitor

My management of this bank is based on just one man's opinion on what seems to work well for us when cruising, and I suspect that as with anchors there will be other opinions on how I should be doing it. Be that as it may, the agonizing over chargers, regulators and alternators that are matched to the Li chemistry seems like a waste of time to me. This is because of the way the batteries charge, and the fact that they have so little internal resistance, so floating them as if they were a different chemistry can be harmful. When charging, and regardless of the state of discharge, the batts will accept a significant portion of their capacity in current while charging, so some folks increase the charging capacity of their vessels to take advantage of this. However, in our case, we use around 300 amps per day, so if I am recharging the batts with the alternator only, the job gets done in 3 hours or so. If we are staying put at anchor for a day or two, we'll run the genset and recharge in about the same amount of time, while doing laundry, making water, etc. If we want to recharge quickly and are going somewhere, we charge from both sources and they are full in an hour and a half, more or less. So, spending money and space on adding charging capacity doesn't seem like it has any pay off, at least for us.

I have both the Balmar and Trace charger set to output 28.8 volts for 4 hours. Why? Because I treat these batts like a fuel tank, not a Pb battery, meaning I put current to them until the acceptance rate drops to 5% or so of capacity, then disconnect them from the charging source via the BMS if we are underway, or turn off the genset if we are at anchor. When we start charging, the voltage rises very quickly to 27 - 27.1 volts, and stays there until the last 5 to 10 minutes of the charging cycle. During that period, the voltage rises quickly, as in .1 volts every few seconds. If I am asleep at the switch, the max current is 28.8 volts, which won't hurt them. If something goes wrong, the Lithionics BMS will shunt the current at 29.2 volts so no harm is done, and after 4 hours the regulator and genset charger drop the voltage output to 26.8 volts, which still isn't ideal for Li chemistry but isn't going to cause much harm either. However, you can set your watch on when the batteries will be full because if you throw 100 amps to them, they will accept 100 amps. Used 300 amps? 3 hours later, they are full, and you turn off the charging sources, just like you would close the nozzle when refueling and the tanks are full. Pretty simple.

The advantage of this chemistry is both in the flat and very high acceptance rate when charging, but also the flat voltage curve when discharging. You get 25.6 volts minimum right up until they are 80% discharged. Since I recharge at around 50% capacity, I never see less than 26 volts even under normal house loads. In fact, at 26.4 volts with no or very minimal load, you have no idea what state of charge the batteries are at. They could 20% discharged or 70% discharged, so their ability to deliver stable voltage through a good chunk of their capacity means you have to count amps to know where you're at, which we do with the Link 2000. I can't say it is completely accurate, but it seems in the ballpark.

When we return to shore power for weeks, I'll leave the batteries at around 65% charge, which they prefer.

Hope that helps.
 
Delfin....I really like both your setup and your reasoning. Next boat, I will likely do something very similar. A poor man's version could be to take the same approach with Firefly carbon foam batteries.
 
Delfin....I really like both your setup and your reasoning. Next boat, I will likely do something very similar. A poor man's version could be to take the same approach with Firefly carbon foam batteries.

I thought long and hard about the carbon foam batteries. Their main advantage is they don't lose capacity if undercharged, which is another feature of the Li batts. However, the current acceptance rate of the carbon foam isn't flat like Li, so charge times are much longer. Boils down to how much you want to spend, I suppose, as well as how much you use them. I may be wrong, but managing the bank I have as described should give me 3,000+ cycles. Hope I get to use them that much, although I suspect I have bought my last set of house batteries.
 
Delfin, very interesting how you manage your LFP bank. I believe you're saying 'stay well away from both knees and an LFP bank can be quite robust--can be charged using AGM voltages'? I respect that, it works well for you.

Since my T105 2S3P 12v bank died, I too am looking hard at an LFP or carbon foam house bank. If LFP, the hurdle I keep running into is finding a reliable source of high quality reliable 200Ah CALB or Winston LFP cells. Also, now that the Housepower BMS has been acquired by Lithionics, a good BMS. The pre-made US LFP systems are just too expensive imo.

I have a line on six Firefly L15/L16s, and think they'll be a good interim choice while the supply of LFP cells and BMSes (someday) finally catches up with demand, and prices drop. The L15s fit nicely in my existing box, and I can use my existing charging equipment. 900Ah bank that can go to 20% DoD, tolerates PSOC very well, can be charged at ~0.5C, and will double my bank capacity, all for just under $4k works well enough for me. I do wish they'd take at least a 1C charge rate, but then I'd have to upgrade my charging equipment.

Thanks for your LFP bank philosophy, very interesting.

2 X 300 amp 24vdc Lithionics
Lithionics battery management system.....
....Hope that helps.
 
I believe you're saying 'stay well away from both knees and an LFP bank can be quite robust--can be charged using AGM voltages'?
To me, that is a contradiction, but possibly not.

Avoiding the shoulder at the top, means not allowing charging voltage to pass (much over) 3.45Vpc, or for 4S 13.8V.

Now the unloaded charge current may be higher when you start charging the depleted battery, and the actual charging voltage is a negotiated point between that and the batt at rest, and IF you are sitting there every charge cycle watching a voltmeter at the bank posts, I suppose you could "catch and stop" the current as it hits that 13.8V point.

But to me that's unrealistic even silly.

If you allow the bank to get past 13.8V, you are pushing past the shoulder at the top.

Thus if you want LFP longevity, your charge sources need setpoint custom adjustability.
 
interim choice while the supply of LFP cells and BMSes (someday) finally catches up with demand, and prices drop.
IMO ain't gonna happen.

Yes the control systems, an inexpensive generic packaged but customizable BMS that can work with any pack of prismatics may well come out, ideally FOSS based.

Maybe reduced shipping costs as they are (re)recognized as safe, and or more local distribution develops.

But the cells themselves will not drop in price long term.
 
To me, that is a contradiction, but possibly not.

Avoiding the shoulder at the top, means not allowing charging voltage to pass (much over) 3.45Vpc, or for 4S 13.8V.

Now the unloaded charge current may be higher when you start charging the depleted battery, and the actual charging voltage is a negotiated point between that and the batt at rest, and IF you are sitting there every charge cycle watching a voltmeter at the bank posts, I suppose you could "catch and stop" the current as it hits that 13.8V point.

But to me that's unrealistic even silly.

If you allow the bank to get past 13.8V, you are pushing past the shoulder at the top.

Thus if you want LFP longevity, your charge sources need setpoint custom adjustability.

Since you ignore the duration at the target voltage, you miss the point. As far as the practical application of this technology to boating goes, I don't think anyone has made a greater contribution than our own CMS, or MaineSail. From his splendid discussion, located here: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

"I currently have four prismatic cells in the shop, sent to me by a gentleman who “assumed” a “GEL” setting on his charger was “safe”. He did this based on Winston’s voltage specifications. He assumed, seeing as it was only 14.1V or 3.53VPC and well within the “spec“, that 14.1V was safe for a nominal 12V bank. However, voltage is not the only factor to consider. You have voltage, duration at target voltage, and charge rate to also consider. LiFePO4 cells are best charged to 100% SOC then charging is 100% terminated. This does not happen with far too many lead-acid designed chargers.

The problem in his installation was the absorption DURATION, at 14.1V, was a murderous 4 hours long with no way to change the length of the absorption cycle-timer. On top of a 4 hour absorption the chargers charge rate, which was very low in comparison to the banks Ah capacity, his cells were actually hitting 100% SOC before the voltage even got to 14.1V."


Right now, I am sitting in the pilot house watching the scenery go by as we putter north to Rivers Inlet. The Link shows the voltage on the Li bank to be at 27.3 volts and with the genset running they are currently absorbing 203 amps. I can see the Link from where my fat ass rests and when the voltage reaches 28.2 I will get off the aforementioned fat ass and take the Li bank off line, running then on the starter bank. Consistent with CMS's advice, my bank is charged to 98% and the target voltage duration is about 3 minute. In other words, no absorption period at all.

If this process seems silly and unrealistic to you, I'm not sure what to say.

One question for you, John. Given two identical 12 v Li banks, where one is charged to 98% or 14.1 volts, then disconnected from the charge source, and the other receives 13.8 volts for a few hours after reaching that voltage, which bank will last longer?
 
Delfin
Nice to see real world marine usage and operations at work as opposed to internet knowledge. Especially when it comes to Li batteries. So much of what long duration cruisers do is based upon watching gauges and meters and getting off our fat asses to make adjustments, flip switches and basically take charge.

Our vessel has not seen a power pedestal for over a week. Reducing power demands, running the genset now and then and operating the main engines for their intended purpose (forward motion and battery charging) works for us.
 
The Link shows the voltage on the Li bank to be at 27.3 volts and with the genset running they are currently absorbing 203 amps. I can see the Link from where my fat ass rests and when the voltage reaches 28.2 I will get off the aforementioned fat ass and take the Li bank off line, running then on the starter bank. Consistent with CMS's advice, my bank is charged to 98% and the target voltage duration is about 3 minute. In other words, no absorption period at all.?
That seems fine if the current rate is high, and as long as you don't get distracted. That's the silly bit for me, I know I can't trust my memory and attention span.

Percentage SoC is an arbitrary judgment call, not anything objective.

Both your examples are IMO overcharging a bit, and relative cycles lost, I dunno. I reckon a very low amp current taking a long time to reach 14.1V would be similar to a high current holding Absorb for too long at 13.8V

13.8V and stop, is **my** Full in day-to-day usage.

"True 100% Full" when precise calibration is required, is 13.8V until trailing amps decline to .02C, or 8A for a 400AH bank.
 
Have you explored the Tesla Powerwall as an option? Preliminary pricing is $6600 per 24 kWh/day module including all supporting hardware. It appears to be for the most part "plug and play". Installation costs vary from $1000-$3000 using their installers. Solar is optional but seems the unit could be charged with engine alternators or wind generator units. At only 280lbs. and approx. 46"t x 30"w x 6"d it could be hung on the wall as the work of art it is!


https://www.tesla.com/powerwall


P.S I do not have any affiliation with Tesla, just think that this might be the power revolution for boating, of the century (so far).
 
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I have not heard of their supporting any mobile use.

Also have a chat with your insurance.

ABCY is working on specs for non-lead storage, but no word on a release date. My guess is LFP only to start.
 
That seems fine if the current rate is high, and as long as you don't get distracted. That's the silly bit for me, I know I can't trust my memory and attention span.

Percentage SoC is an arbitrary judgment call, not anything objective.

Both your examples are IMO overcharging a bit, and relative cycles lost, I dunno. I reckon a very low amp current taking a long time to reach 14.1V would be similar to a high current holding Absorb for too long at 13.8V

13.8V and stop, is **my** Full in day-to-day usage.

"True 100% Full" when precise calibration is required, is 13.8V until trailing amps decline to .02C, or 8A for a 400AH bank.

If I get distracted, the Balmar profile programmed matches the recommendations from Lithionics. I am not sure your statement that SoC is an "arbitrary call" and not objective makes a whole lot of sense. A battery will accept additional charging current, or it won't. If it won't, by definition, it is at or near 100% SoC. And no, "true 100% full" is not achieved with LiFePO4 batteries at 13.8 volts, at least according to the manufacturer. That requires reaching 14.4 volts when charging, at which point the acceptance rate drops to 2% of capacity. The time I allow the voltage to reach that level is a couple of minutes, unless I have had a heart attack and am unconscious. In that circumstance, then the Balmar profile occurs. If I am still conscious, then the Li batteries come off line or the genset is shut down. I figure if I can manage to avoid running up on rocks I am capable of noticing what a gauge says the voltage of the batteries I am charging is.
 
I have not heard of their supporting any mobile use.

Also have a chat with your insurance.

ABCY is working on specs for non-lead storage, but no word on a release date. My guess is LFP only to start.


I actually would NOT ask my insurance company. It just gives them the opportunity to say No, or to increase my rates. Unless there is some prohibition against LFP in your insurance contract, then it's covered. I'll wait for them to exclude them on their own rather than prompt them to do so.
 

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