LiFePO4 (LFP) battery poll

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

Your battery plans re LiFePO4 (LFP) batteries for your boat

  • I already have LFP batteries on my boat

    Votes: 21 19.6%
  • I plan to switch to LFP at my next battery replacement interval

    Votes: 33 30.8%
  • I will consider switching to LFP at my next battery replacement interval

    Votes: 33 30.8%
  • I have no interest in LFP batteries.

    Votes: 20 18.7%

  • Total voters
    107
Faced with having to replace four 6V Golf-Cart FLA house bank anyways, made the change to LiFePO4. Economics certainly wasn't the motivation - the high charge rate was the attraction. Typically motoring only a couple of hours between anchorages, without solar, the ability to fully recharge the Lithiums from a low to a full state of charge inside of 2 hours of motoring was the main attraction.
 
I'm in the middle of a refit on my 47 Commander - I'm picking up 800ah of LiFePO4 on Saturday for the house/inverter bank. I did a bunch of research and with LiFePO4 prices the way they are now, it wasn't difficult to justify the upgrade. That said, the engines get 2 x GRP31 FLAs each and the generator a GRP27 FLA, all Deka built dual purpose at the cheapest price I could find locally. There are a few LiFePO4 start batteries on the market targeted at smaller engines, but I suspect 10 years from now they will be common in higher MCA ratings.
 
In NC, we had horrible luck with batteries. Testing didn't reflect the upcoming problems either so we just changed every three years before cold weather hit.

In FL, our pattern of use isn't conducive to battery life. We have three personal vehicles and they are all 9 1/2 years old and all have between 35,000 and 38,000 miles. We do get them checked and have someone who runs them weekly if we're gone. Also very high performance engines. Especially tough on them the last two years as we haven't taken any on our long trips but have driven a company owned Sprinter instead.

What is "runs them weekly" defined as?
Starting them and letting them idle really doesn't benefit the battery (or the car) as charging varies greatly with engine RPM. If someone is going to maintain the car, it needs to be taken out and drove until it at least reaches full operating temperature and ideally 20 or 30 minutes every couple of weeks. As mentioned, a battery tender would probably be beneficial for the health of the battery while you're away. A good one shuts the charging off completely when the battery is completely charged.

My diesel pickup sits in the garage for 7 or 8 months while I'm away cruising. Not the best for it and certainly better for a diesel than a gasoline engine. Because lead acid batteries loose something like 10% charge per month, I have a 2 amp battery charger that plugs in the cigarette lighter (stays powered even with the key off) to maintain the batteries. It's on a timer that's on 3 hours per day when I'm away during the summer. Truck starts instantly after sitting 7 months.

Your driving habits may also be part of the problem. If you're driving is very short trips as opposed 20 minutes or more, you may not be recharging the battery completely. It's fine to do short trips (provided the engine reaches normal operating temperature), but the batteries need to be fully recharged regularly. The batteries in my pickup tend to last 7 to 8 years. I attribute part of their long life to very few trips under 20 minutes. My commute to work (charter boat) was 45 minutes, so the batteries were fully recharged twice each work day.

Ted
 
Last edited:
What is "runs them weekly" defined as?
30 minutes including some time on the interstate.

My diesel pickup sits in the garage for 7 or 8 months while I'm away cruising.
As you say, easier for diesel than gas.

Your driving habits may also be part of the problem.

Our driving habits are definitely part of the problem. However, they are what they are. Plus they have worsened since we haven't driven these cars on our one long trip we normally make three or four times a year since 2019. We went over a year without making the trip and then since then have made it driving a Sprinter RV/Office conversion diesel.

In NC, while we drove both our cars daily to and from work, the drives were only 15 minutes each way. Only our trips to Myrtle Beach were long.

Now we're spoiled. Between David and the dealer, our batteries are periodically replaced and we haven't had a failure in years. In NC, we had our share, at least partially due to our own failure to keep an eye on their age. My G37 and my wife's Miata both had limited batteries due to space constraints.
 
As we are frequently away for weeks or months at a time, all of my batteries, whether cars, boat, dinghy, lawn tractor are never left for more than a week without being on some sort of charger. Either the boat, on a Xantrex MS2000, or the cars, lawn tractor, each on one of these: https://www.harborfreight.com/automatic-battery-float-charger-64284.html?cid=itcnonmember_feb2022 attached and connected to reliable AC power. Since I started doing this I have extended the lives of batteries in all of those applications. My boat FLAs have averaged around 10 years, cars include one that is still going strong at 17 years, all FLAs. The only shortened life has been my dinghy, which is more difficult to keep on the program, so the AGM there has had to be replaced twice so far in 12 years.
 
Hey Tator,

I recently sold to Keith, owner of Bluewater Ceora in Port Orchard, 5 Victron Energy LiFeP04 12.8V - 100Ah Smart batteries and assorted cables and accessories. You should know Keith, he organizes the Bluewater Rendezvous, when we had them.

He is installing them under the port settee. Nice feature about the LFP batteries is they don't leak or gas so no battery boxes and/or venting required.

Keith worked in electrical at Boeing so he is very knowledgeable about LFP's and their configuration.

If you have not purchased your LFP's yet, PM me for a quote. I can beat most internet prices and shipping is either free or reasonable, depending on the size of the order.

i've been researching lfp's for when i re-do my battery bank as well. i see you sold keith 5 of them. many i've seen list 4 as the maximum for parallel connection. is victron the same?
trying to figure out the house/starter configuration too. lfp house and maybe agm start. still researching.
 
Well @koliver, left the gym just now which happens to be next to Harbor Freight. Thought about your recommendation and grabbed one of those float chargers. I have a starter and a deep cycle which need to be maintained.

Will see how well and how long the charger lasts.
 
I am just about to move off a medium-sized sailing catamaran that I installed LiFePo4 batteries in a year ago. For living on the hook and powering with solar almost exclusively, they were a great upgrade.



I am now looking at a lifestyle change and searching for a trawler. In my mind I thought Lithium would be one of the first upgrades, but now with further thought I'll have to see how I actually use the boat to see if the upgrade is worth it.



I would say that if the current FLA batts on any boat were near end of life, lithium is getting so cheap that it doesn't seem unreasonable to use them, especially since I live in the tropics and temperature is no issue.
Lithium is cheap compared to FLA?!
 
I can't count the number of hours I've spent on researching LiFePo4 batteries as i am driving an all electric boat and plan on doing it until I'm 90.(9 more years to go.) My present battery bank consists of 16-6 volt AGM golf cart batts but when they die, LiFePro4s are going in. I haven't found one bad thing, other than price, about them in over 2 years of investigating battery chemistry.
And you will be long amouldering in the ground before your cost break-even point is reached.
 
We are full time living aboard for six years now. We have done the Great Loop and have anchored extensively. We have eight golf car FLA batteries, 920ah. They are now five years old and still at 97% capacity as determined by a Balmar SG200. (YES, the SG200 works for me.) I expect my batteries will last at least 3 more years before their capacity is diminished enough to prompt replacement. The 460ah of useable juice is more than sufficient for our use case. I can replace the FLA bank with Trojan T-105s for about $1,200 and readily available in most places. So, in my case, for the mere price of $1,200 I can get 11 years, 3+8 of juice, perhaps more. Why would I invest in lithium not to mention the additional infrastructure costs? Extend that to another cycle, another $1,200 gets me to the age of 90. Will I live that long? Demographics say no. If I do, will I choose to be on the water or even be able to do so? Not likely. Lithium makes absolutely no sense to this boater, cost or utility-wise, not even close. Now, when comparing to the cost of AGMs, perhaps the numbers work for some folks. But, for me, AGMs do nothing that FLAs don't do just as well. I'll be sticking with FLA and maybe in three years dropping in a new set of Trojans and no need of any new infrastructure.
 
My house bank of Six 6V golf cart AGMs are not hold a charge like they use to. Heavy little things too and getting older and I am not a big guy. So the lighter batteries will be a plus. Wiring I can do and I understand electricity and networking. So that part comes easy to me.

I will be going from a 570Ah to a 600Ah bank that will take up 3/4 of the space. The extra space will come in handy with new DC to DC charger and wiring.

I also don't want to worry when I go ashore, are my batteries holding up? I have a Siren alarm so I can check voltage, but why cut my trip short!

I will still run the genset, but not as long. Faster charging.

Just an FYI to us northern boaters. Check the storage temp rating before you buy. Some lithium batteries have a storage of 20F or less and/or no internal heater.
 
Last edited:
We are full time living aboard for six years now. We have done the Great Loop and have anchored extensively. We have eight golf car FLA batteries, 920ah. They are now five years old and still at 97% capacity as determined by a Balmar SG200. (YES, the SG200 works for me.) I expect my batteries will last at least 3 more years before their capacity is diminished enough to prompt replacement. The 460ah of useable juice is more than sufficient for our use case. I can replace the FLA bank with Trojan T-105s for about $1,200 and readily available in most places. So, in my case, for the mere price of $1,200 I can get 11 years, 3+8 of juice, perhaps more. Why would I invest in lithium not to mention the additional infrastructure costs? Extend that to another cycle, another $1,200 gets me to the age of 90. Will I live that long? Demographics say no. If I do, will I choose to be on the water or even be able to do so? Not likely. Lithium makes absolutely no sense to this boater, cost or utility-wise, not even close. Now, when comparing to the cost of AGMs, perhaps the numbers work for some folks. But, for me, AGMs do nothing that FLAs don't do just as well. I'll be sticking with FLA and maybe in three years dropping in a new set of Trojans and no need of any new infrastructure.

I certainly can't argue your logic as I was in the same situation. The Trojan T-105s went up 50% in price from win I originally bought them. Part of my consideration when switching was that going from 8 T-105s to 4 Fireflys, was it increased my useable capacity and eliminated watering. I think the difference before tax was around $300.

Ted
 
Lithium is cheap compared to FLA?!


I thought it was demonstrated in this thread that they can be?

Originally Posted by catalinajack View Post
Simi 60, your comparison is ridiculous because of where you live and the prices there. In North America the numbers are upside down. 840 of usable amp-hours in a Trojan AGM would cost about $5,300 in the States. And weight savings? Who cares? Is 900 kg on a big trawler significant? Nope. Real life example? Yes, but irrelevant for most other folks.

I'm not sure how you came up with those numbers. Here's what I get.


840Ah usable requires 2x or 1680Ah name plate capacity in AGMs. Using a Trojan 205Ah 12V AGM as an example, 8 are required for 1640Ah. But that's at 12V, so double to 16 batteries to get 1640Ah @ 24V. I see those batteries for $634, so $10,000. Or Trojan L16 AGMs which at 375Ah @ 6V. That would take 16 to get 1500Ah @24V, and they cost $570 each so $9100.


And the cells that Simi is using can be purchased in the US for between $2000 and $4000 depending on how well known you want the supplier to be. The $4000 price is for Amazon.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com


https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1072425&postcount=5
 
TwistedTree - I have another poll for you: of the people who have LiFePO4, how many are sorry they did it? How many would return them for a full refund (including any upgrades to accommodate them) and go back to their old setup including some flavor of AGM/FLA?




Peter
 
TwistedTree - I have another poll for you: of the people who have LiFePO4, how many are sorry they did it? How many would return them for a full refund (including any upgrades to accommodate them) and go back to their old setup including some flavor of AGM/FLA?




Peter

And I'm bet that number is near zero.
 
TwistedTree - I have another poll for you: of the people who have LiFePO4, how many are sorry they did it? How many would return them for a full refund (including any upgrades to accommodate them) and go back to their old setup including some flavor of AGM/FLA?




Peter




Go for it! It would be interesting, but keep in mind that I think people are highly biased towards defending any big decision they have made. But it would still be interesting.


As was pointed out in this thread, the way I posed the question might have caused people who are uninterested in LFP to skip the thread, and cause us to miss "not interested" votes. I agree that's possible, but it's still interesting (and surprising) to see the results, with portions that have remained pretty consistent through the polling period. Even if there are missed "not interested" votes that caused their numbers to doubled, it would still be a distinct minority.
 
Go for it! It would be interesting, but keep in mind that I think people are highly biased towards defending any big decision they have made. But it would still be interesting.


As was pointed out in this thread, the way I posed the question might have caused people who are uninterested in LFP to skip the thread, and cause us to miss "not interested" votes. I agree that's possible, but it's still interesting (and surprising) to see the results, with portions that have remained pretty consistent through the polling period. Even if there are missed "not interested" votes that caused their numbers to doubled, it would still be a distinct minority.
On CruisersForum, I posed a question "Compost Head owners: would you do it again?" I was seriously considering a compost head and wanted unvarnished feedback. But as you note, I was worried about confirmation bias so I asked some leading questions about how it worked in the tropics, availability of media, how guests reacted (including the "Ick Factor").

I think there were 50-ish unique on-topic responses (I say "on-topic" as CH draw some really negative responses such as a broker who had never seen or used one but said resale would be a problem, another non-user said they were illegal, several variations of Ick or Litter Box, etc).

Of the relevant responses, a couple neutral, one negative, rest very positive. What was interesting about the positives was they gave heartfelt and practical reasons for doing so. The commentary was pursuasive vs the actual up/down vote.

DC capacity on a boat or RV is a pain. I can honestly say that combination of LiFePO4 and solar are an absolute game changed. Much of the energy anxiety is gone. Poof. Way cool.

Peter
 
I certainly can't argue your logic as I was in the same situation. The Trojan T-105s went up 50% in price from win I originally bought them. Part of my consideration when switching was that going from 8 T-105s to 4 Fireflys, was it increased my useable capacity and eliminated watering. I think the difference before tax was around $300.



Ted
Ted, watering is quite easy on my boat, four or five times per year, 20 minutes. Not a big deal. If it were not so easy then it might be a decision factor and make it worth the extra money. My point is that there are many use cases, each unique and, as such, lithium is not the best choice for all. Given that there are thousands who are members of this forum and only a very few have posted about their having adopted lithium, I will hazard a guess that the lithium community is relatively quite small.

However, for $300 I might take a look at Firefly when the time comes but that won't be for 3 or 4 years.
 
On CruisersForum, I posed a question "Compost Head owners: would you do it again?" I was seriously considering a compost head and wanted unvarnished feedback. But as you note, I was worried about confirmation bias so I asked some leading questions about how it worked in the tropics, availability of media, how guests reacted (including the "Ick Factor").

I think there were 50-ish unique on-topic responses (I say "on-topic" as CH draw some really negative responses such as a broker who had never seen or used one but said resale would be a problem, another non-user said they were illegal, several variations of Ick or Litter Box, etc).

Of the relevant responses, a couple neutral, one negative, rest very positive. What was interesting about the positives was they gave heartfelt and practical reasons for doing so. The commentary was pursuasive vs the actual up/down vote.

DC capacity on a boat or RV is a pain. I can honestly say that combination of LiFePO4 and solar are an absolute game changed. Much of the energy anxiety is gone. Poof. Way cool.

Peter

Interesting observations on confirmation bias. Again, I will say the move to lithium is wholly driven by each boater's unique use case. I have eight golf car batteries and zero energy anxitey. It does make sense for some but for most (many?) it does not.
 
Interesting observations on confirmation bias. Again, I will say the move to lithium is wholly driven by each boater's unique use case. I have eight golf car batteries and zero energy anxitey. It does make sense for some but for most (many?) it does not.


Between the lines you bring up an interesting point. Like myself, I suspect many people upgrade their entire charging and monitoring system when they go LFP. Much of the benefit attributed to LFP is probably due to charge upgrade. Although FLA are throttled in their ability to accept hi-charge rates, most systems that relied on stock alternators would see a healthy benefit without expense of LFP batteries.



Peter
 
Between the lines you bring up an interesting point. Like myself, I suspect many people upgrade their entire charging and monitoring system when they go LFP. Much of the benefit attributed to LFP is probably due to charge upgrade. Although FLA are throttled in their ability to accept hi-charge rates, most systems that relied on stock alternators would see a healthy benefit without expense of LFP batteries.



Peter

The additional upgrades I would have needed to make to install LFP were definitely a contributing factor when I installed my 4 AGM batteries last year. My charger/inverter did not have a charging profile specific to LFP and I wasn't willing to replace it at the same time. I think I would have had to make other changes too but the inverter/charger was going to be one of the more expensive factors.

It turns out that the charger/inverter died about 2 months after I had my new batteries in place. The new charger/inverter does support LFP and I'll reconsider when this bank dies but I may be done with this boat by then.
 
I find it interesting that people now trust electronic computers (BMS) more with their batteries than with their engines (ECM’s). I’m in the opposite camp. Though the advantages of the chemistry are appealing, I would want more redundancy designed into the system. Still a few too many dead boat scenarios happening for me to commit fully to the technology. I’ve also managed to get more life out of my AGMs than most by paying a bit more attention to charging.
 
I find it interesting that people now trust electronic computers (BMS) more with their batteries than with their engines (ECM’s). I’m in the opposite camp. Though the advantages of the chemistry are appealing, I would want more redundancy designed into the system. Still a few too many dead boat scenarios happening for me to commit fully to the technology. I’ve also managed to get more life out of my AGMs than most by paying a bit more attention to charging.

As in the BMS, you have cheap batteries and you have more expensive ones. Why? Is one battery made better than the other? This hold true to the BMS that is in that battery. You get what you pay for.

As to a dead boat: Thats why the ABYC standards mention a warning from the BMS before it shuts down. Now in my case, if the three BMSs (three batteries) shut down. I just need to turn two battery switches and the boat would be up and running again. Keep in mind, this is the house bank so no affect on the engine.

Also the cause of a dead boat maybe a improper install and/or cheap batteries with a poor BMS.
 
The bms can be external to the batteries which is the only approach that makes sense to me. These batteries seem to require way more attention to charging and discharging than agm batteries. Computers are way better at it than owners so I think that is a major factor in the appeal. I actually have been using a BMS of sorts for my agms. I’m going to eventually try this for a small lithium bank in the future.
 
The bms can be external to the batteries which is the only approach that makes sense to me. These batteries seem to require way more attention to charging and discharging than agm batteries. Computers are way better at it than owners so I think that is a major factor in the appeal. I actually have been using a BMS of sorts for my agms. I’m going to eventually try this for a small lithium bank in the future.

In some ways your right! Victron uses an external BMS Which adds to the cost, and makes it more complicated, but a great system. Victron's firmware and some Bluetooth batteries and the one I am looking at can be upgraded too.

But I have work to do installing these batteries. Now I have to isolate the engines charging system. Add DC to DC charger and add a few cables.

Its all on, how deep do you want to go and stay in ABYC standards.
 
Last edited:
Nope, Simi, you demonstrated that lithium can be economically viable by comparing cost to AGMs and at Oz prices, not US prices against FLOODED lead acid. The numbers work for you but not so much for many others.

Actually, it was TwistedTree that demonstrated that they are cheaper than AGM and in US prices

I would still be interested to see your FLA comparison you feel is cheaper taking into account that FLA need double the battery to get near the same power efficiency as LFP
 
i've been researching lfp's for when i re-do my battery bank as well. i see you sold keith 5 of them. many i've seen list 4 as the maximum for parallel connection. is victron the same?
trying to figure out the house/starter configuration too. lfp house and maybe agm start. still researching.

5 Victron LFP can be paralleled.

I've attached a datasheet.
 

Attachments

  • Datasheet-12,8-&-25,6-Volt-lithium-iron-phosphate-batteries-Smart-EN.pdf
    322.4 KB · Views: 13
lets start with 3 banks of 310Ah / 48V LiFePO4

I'm planning to switch over from 8 AGM D8 house batteries (24V system) to 3-4 banks of LiFePO4 (48V system) each consisting of 16x 3,2V/310Ah cells (grade A blue) with individual BMSs.

Those will give us about 45kw or 60kw of energy.
Enough for running "the house" and a modernized inverter style AC/heating system for 36-72h.

Only the engine room will run on 24V.

Two Balmar 48V alternators, 2,5kw solar and 2x 10kw/48V Victron Quattros shall feed the batteries. Our two 17KW Onans will have to run way less hours but under heavier load.

As we will leave Europe to North America: I'm actually researching IF and HOW to transform 60Hz shorepower to the boats 50Hz.

"IF" because it's not defined yet whether we can run the complete boat from the 48V system (inverter chargers). The Victrons will deliver 48V DC anyway from 50Hz and from 60Hz.

"HOW" means changing the existing large isolation transformer to a frequency transformer.
 
I first dipped a toe into LFP when I replaced the Group 27 LA I was using for the electric dinghy motor. The electric replaced a 30 pound gas outboard, but the battery was as much of a pain as the outboard (although I did get rid of the gasoline onboard). The LFP battery (24 pounds) replaced the 75# LA battery. Plus, no worrying about flopping the LFP on its side. After several long explorations, I realized that I could go about 8 hours in the dinghy, twice as long as the gas outboard.

Since then, I took out my propane stove and installed an induction burner. Although my battery bank (260Ah usable) was sufficient, there was some amperage anxiety. LFP to the rescue again. I now have a 120Ah LFP sitting next to my pure sine wave inverter that runs my induction stove top. The new battery is fitted with this $20 blue tooth battery monitor so that I can check my phone as to stove battery condition (or get an alert if the battery is low or too much draw).

I'm not sure whether I'll every go full LFP, but so far I've found a few situations where they can definitely be an improvement.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom