Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-20-2020, 09:25 AM   #1
Guru
 
City: Canaveral
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,841
LiFePO batteries with external BMS

Is anyone familiar with any brands of lithium batteries, but with external BMS instead of permanently sealed inside?
__________________
Advertisement

makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 09:27 AM   #2
Guru
 
City: PNW
Country: USA
Join Date: Nov 2018
Posts: 741
Victron and Lithionics both have batts that utilize an external BMS (they also have others with internal just FYI).
__________________

Frosty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 10:22 AM   #3
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Country: USA
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 1,321
Victron is the one I would go with. They have an extensive and well integrated eco system to go with it, much larger than Lithionics, pretty much everything you need in a DC system all networked and internet connected if you want.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-20-2020, 11:13 AM   #4
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 9,386
Just wondering why you want an external BMS?
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 05:23 PM   #5
Guru
 
City: Canaveral
Country: USA
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,841
My thought is that one of the things that goes wrong the most on a boat, and is the most difficult to repair, is the microprocessor board. If all the electronics for a lithium are external, instead of buried under layers of epoxy, then you’d have a more repairable battery system.
makobuilders is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 06:52 PM   #6
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Gloucester, MA
Country: USA
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,851
MG Energy is my preference. Top notch product, and the original suppliers of Victron's high end offering. And they are much more aggressive on pricing.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-21-2020, 07:21 PM   #7
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 9,386
Quote:
Originally Posted by makobuilders View Post
My thought is that one of the things that goes wrong the most on a boat, and is the most difficult to repair, is the microprocessor board. If all the electronics for a lithium are external, instead of buried under layers of epoxy, then you’d have a more repairable battery system.
I have not looked at all the brands but Battle Born has a 10 year warranty with the first 8 years full replacement. So I would not be too concerned about the circuit board failure.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2020, 11:21 AM   #8
Guru
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
I have not looked at all the brands but Battle Born has a 10 year warranty with the first 8 years full replacement. So I would not be too concerned about the circuit board failure.
Talked to Battleborn- there have been some internal BMS failures, but nothing of rampant concern. In each case, the battery was warranted and life went on
.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2020, 11:53 AM   #9
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 9,386
I have the 2 from Costco and have 1 more on the way. It should be here tomorrow. They have a lifetime warranty so if there is a BMS failure they will replace it. I like the Lion lithiums since you can remove the battery terminals and you end up with a flat surface. I have some 3/8”x3/4” copper bars that I will drill and bolt to the top of the terminals so I won’t have cables between the batteries. I am going to put heat shrink on the copper bars between the terminals for insulation against a dropped tool. It should make a very neat install. I can’t install them until after I pull the starboard engine because the crane comes right down in front of the cabinet I am going to install them in. Have the battery tray made and painted. No need for liquid retention like a flooded battery. Waiting to haul the boat now to get started on all the work.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2020, 12:21 PM   #10
Guru
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,360
Gonna go with Battleborn- just gotta figure out the rest of the wiring, and confirm that I can eliminate 2 of the 3 8D batteries (1 per engine, plus 1 for the 12kW genset) and instead use the 1 8D to start all 3 engines and parallel the house bank if needed.

Time to start diagramming...
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2020, 01:19 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
City: St. Petersburg
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 191
As a point for discussion, LFP batteries with internal BMS's do not communicate any information outside of their cases. Cell unbalance...nope. High cell temperature...nope. High discharge rate (out of spec)...nope. High charge voltage...nope. Low cell temperature...nope. You get the picture.

All of these conditions are handled internally and the operator does not know anything is amiss until the internal contactor opens and the load connected to the battery goes dead or in the case of charging the charging source takes a back EMF surge. Not the way I would design a critical system on my or a client's boat.
__________________
Charlie Johnson
ABYC Master Technician
CharlieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2020, 02:15 PM   #12
Guru
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlieJ View Post
As a point for discussion, LFP batteries with internal BMS's do not communicate any information outside of their cases. Cell unbalance...nope. High cell temperature...nope. High discharge rate (out of spec)...nope. High charge voltage...nope. Low cell temperature...nope. You get the picture.

All of these conditions are handled internally and the operator does not know anything is amiss until the internal contactor opens and the load connected to the battery goes dead or in the case of charging the charging source takes a back EMF surge. Not the way I would design a critical system on my or a client's boat.
Point well taken. I've been also talking to many RV types that have had Battleborn for many years boondocking, and I find a high level of satisfaction with the product. As mentioned, I haven't found any major concerns with their internal BMS having premature or catastrophic failures.

At this point, I've not found any reason to scare me away.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2020, 04:08 PM   #13
Senior Member
 
City: St. Petersburg
Country: USA
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 191
Peter
To continue the discussion: I just finished installing BB batteries in a Sprinter RV.

I did this with my eyes wide open and made sure my client understood my concerns. After talking to several other techs in the RV industry I came to the conclusion that if there is a failure in an RV, the worst that could happen would be a very, very unlikely fire. If the contactor opens, and an RV's operating system goes off line, it is not a big deal unless there is a life safety implication.

On a boat, this is a totally different story that is strongly dependent on the operational environment. For example: at anchor in settled conditions probably not a big concern if the contactor opens on low voltage/low SOC, etc. Entering a pass and dependent on all of your sensors in foul wx could be a huge concern if the contactor opens without warning. Certainly there are work arounds with add on low voltage/high voltage alarms etc. I just can't subscribe to the concept.
__________________
Charlie Johnson
ABYC Master Technician
CharlieJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2020, 05:48 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
gsholz's Avatar
 
City: Out and About
Country: Northwest
Vessel Model: GB 52 Europa
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 337
Another issue to be aware of, if you want longevity, Lithium batteries do not like to be at 100% for any significant amount of time. If you leave your boat for several days/weeks, the battery should be at 50-60% charge. That is a very different usage model than most of us have. I have left my FLAs plugged in for weeks/months at 100%. FLAs enjoy that, LFPs not so much.
gsholz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 12:03 PM   #15
Senior Member
 
City: San Diego, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Uniflite Double Cabin
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
Point well taken. I've been also talking to many RV types that have had Battleborn for many years boondocking, and I find a high level of satisfaction with the product. As mentioned, I haven't found any major concerns with their internal BMS having premature or catastrophic failures.

At this point, I've not found any reason to scare me away.
How many of their batteries will you use in parallel for your house bank? Their spec sheet says 100A continuous, do they recommend using them when paralleled with start batteries for engine starting?
sbman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 12:16 PM   #16
Guru
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbman View Post
How many of their batteries will you use in parallel for your house bank? Their spec sheet says 100A continuous, do they recommend using them when paralleled with start batteries for engine starting?
My plan is for 6 Lifepo4 batteries to replace the current bank of 6 Lifeline AGM 6V in the house bank. I figure I'll about double the housebank capacity, with the ability to add more later if desired.

To the best of my knowledge, they can be paralleled to the start bank in an emergency; the Precision Circuits LI-BIM 225 includes a way to do exactly that.

As my thruster bank is wholly separate from the start bank in the current configuration, I plan to add the ability to parallel them to the start back.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 02:14 PM   #17
Guru
 
Seevee's Avatar
 
City: st pete
Country: usa
Vessel Model: 400 Mainship
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 2,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pau Hana View Post
My plan is for 6 Lifepo4 batteries to replace the current bank of 6 Lifeline AGM 6V in the house bank. I figure I'll about double the housebank capacity, with the ability to add more later if desired.

To the best of my knowledge, they can be paralleled to the start bank in an emergency; the Precision Circuits LI-BIM 225 includes a way to do exactly that.

As my thruster bank is wholly separate from the start bank in the current configuration, I plan to add the ability to parallel them to the start back.

Peter,


Excellent choice....keep us posted on how well it works. I have 6 lifeline AGMs now and love them and really have all the power I need for an overnight, but not heavy cooking or AC. Not that the Lifepo4s would give me that, but they could give me several nights on the hook.



Also, leaning toward gas cooking.
__________________
Seevee
Seevee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 02:53 PM   #18
Guru
 
Pau Hana's Avatar


 
City: Seattle, WA
Country: Good Ol' US of A!
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seevee View Post
Peter,


Excellent choice....keep us posted on how well it works. I have 6 lifeline AGMs now and love them and really have all the power I need for an overnight, but not heavy cooking or AC. Not that the Lifepo4s would give me that, but they could give me several nights on the hook.



Also, leaning toward gas cooking.
Go gas- first thing we did on our boat! It's nice to cook without the genset running...

I want to be able to extend our time out on the hook with diesel heat, fridge, some inverted loads, etc., for several days without worry.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru & tuna fishing addict!

1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
Pau Hana is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2020, 04:53 PM   #19
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 9,386
I got my 3rd battery and today the heat shrink came. Today I finished the battery tray and the bus bars. The Lion Energy batteries have terminal posts that unscrew. They are an M6 thread. So I took the posts off and used a copper bar 3/8”x3/4” and ran them across the terminals. Drilled the copper bars for the M6 bolts and a positive connection on one end and a negative connection on the other end. Then I use adhesive shrink tube to cover the exposed areas of the bus bars. I used clear heat shrink to fashion some covers where the bus bars bolt to the batteries and where the Positive and negative cables will bolt to the bus bars. I made a plywood tray with 1 1/2”x 1 1/2” cleats to hold the batteries secure so they do not wiggle at all. Then an eye screw on each end and a S/S ratchet strap to hold the batteries down. With the bus bars bolted on the terminals on the batteries there isn’t any movement in the batteries, zero. I am pretty happy with the setup. I will put some 1 1/2” rigid insulation under the battery tray since it will be in a cabinet above the engine room. The Lithium batteries will shut off charging at 111 degrees so I want to keep them cool. I have a 50 mAmp fan that will install on the upper vent and blow warm air out of the cabinet and a low vent will let cool air in. I will just let the fan run during the summer when the boat is in the water and turn it off during the winter.

I just previewed the photos and they are loaded upside down. I edited them on my ipad so they were upside down and they still uploaded upside down on this post. Since I have already disassembled the batteries these photos are the best I can do. Sorry.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	753AB9D0-9360-4BD2-A4D5-96FB2C8453D4.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	126.7 KB
ID:	108866   Click image for larger version

Name:	CD6FC029-EB6A-4304-AD49-A5566E6A1F31.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	66.0 KB
ID:	108867   Click image for larger version

Name:	942DBC59-4BB9-42FC-9420-33DFFD3C3080.jpg
Views:	26
Size:	66.0 KB
ID:	108868   Click image for larger version

Name:	4DF8BDC7-D2A3-4B76-BF99-D8F3F97F83C4.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	134.0 KB
ID:	108869   Click image for larger version

Name:	FFF19EAD-0C53-4C9C-8527-D8ADF3A25FB5.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	90.7 KB
ID:	108870  

__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you aren’t one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-19-2020, 05:52 PM   #20
Bud
Senior Member
 
Bud's Avatar
 
City: KEY COLONY BEACH
Country: United States
Vessel Name: Izzy Rose
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 49
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 262
I just bought two 100ah battle born batteries and a sterling BB1260 dc to dc charger. Total cost delivered is $2093 with a veterans discount directly from Battleborn. I will add another battery later if all goes well.

Bud
__________________

Bud is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:41 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×