Latest VHF choices to replace old Icom M602?

[twistedtree]

Maybe just Furuno's expectation that other brand radios might not support PGN "whatever" for this function?

-Chris

But even if other's don't support it, why wouldn't they use the defined messages themselves? If they do a proprietary implementation, it's guaranteed to never work with anyone else. If they use the standard messages, then over time one could expect it to start working between vendors as people get their act together.


It seems Furuno either doesn't want to interoperate, or that the standard messages were inadequate to actually make something work properly.


A trace of the N2K bus between the VHF and MFD would be very interesting. Steve?........ I've got the MFD on my Grady, but not the VHF. I've personally never dug into the DSC interaction between devices, but maybe it's time to.....

 

[Seevee]

Good thread.....

And I'm looking for a similar solution....

Requirements are:
Good quality radio that's easy to see the characters.
DCS
Hailer
Don't care about GPS or AIS.... have that elsewhere.

I send a few inquiries out to a few dealers and waiting a reply.

====
My other VHF is the Standard Horizons GX 2200.... fair overall. Hard to see the characters and no way to keep the frequency in a large font, but works fine.

Also have the Ray VHF 60 on my other boat, and works great... probably a step better than the above.

I don't get really excited about having a second remote handset. Would argue just to have a second unit.

 

[Seevee]

I feel the same way about all my nav equipment. Each piece of equipment should do its job with minimal dependence on anything else, and be replaceable with minimal impact on anything else. This runs contrary to the strategy of most electronics vendors, but I think best serves the mariner who’s life is at stake.

Too many vendors treat this stuff like an iPhone app or other inconsequential toy, but that’s not the case for any serious boater. Our lives depend on it, and I insist that it work all the time, every time, without exception. Others need not apply.

Twisted Tree,

I could argue to never trust your life to a single VHF. There's no such thing as one that works all the time without exception. Get a backup.... or perhaps two backups it it's that important to you.

If all 4 of my VHFs quit at the same time, it would not be life threatening for me.

 

[ranger58sb]

But even if other's don't support it, why wouldn't they use the defined messages themselves?

Dunno, was just guessing. Did they NOT use a standard PGN? IS THERE a standard PGN for that? I don't know much about the nuts and bolts...

-Chris

 

[twistedtree]

Twisted Tree,

I could argue to never trust your life to a single VHF. There's no such thing as one that works all the time without exception. Get a backup.... or perhaps two backups it it's that important to you.

If all 4 of my VHFs quit at the same time, it would not be life threatening for me.

I was referring to products with design problem, not products that break over time. Of course all do eventually break, and I do have redundancy when that would be a problem for me.


What I have a problem with are products that lock up, or some feature just doesn't work, or they spontaneously change channel on you, or they mess up other products causing seemingly random and unrelated problems, etc. Most vendors end up with one or two issues, fix them, and then everything works. Some vendors have more initial problems, and manage to break other things when they fix them. Eventually they stabilize, but I have seen some take 2-3 years before everything works, and in the mean time, the product has gone end of life. And the worst are companies that just never fix the problems that they have.

 

[stevemitchell]

Dunno, was just guessing. Did they NOT use a standard PGN? IS THERE a standard PGN for that? I don't know much about the nuts and bolts...



-Chris

That's my initial thought - that there is not a standard PGN for announcing your DSC capabilities on the network. For sure there are PGNs that you can drop on the network (the MFD does and I've seen it before on others) to tell a device to make a DSC call, but I'm guessing the former is proprietary.

I will take a network trace on Monday when I am back at the boat.

 

[twistedtree]

That's my initial thought - that there is not a standard PGN for announcing your DSC capabilities on the network. For sure there are PGNs that you can drop on the network (the MFD does and I've seen it before on others) to tell a device to make a DSC call, but I'm guessing the former is proprietary.

I will take a network trace on Monday when I am back at the boat.

I just took a peek at the published N2K PGNs, and the only DSC message appears to be for sending and receiving distress calls. The description isn't very detailed, but it doesn't appear to support placing and receiving calls.


Interestingly, the NMEA 0183 DSC sentence does appear to support placing non distress calls, as well as conveying distress calls.

 

[AKFish]

Garmin also provides a proprietary way to make the call. If anybody wants tight DSC integration, like making a routine DSC call, the only way to get the best integration is using the same brand radio as MFD.


Peter, as you know there are many shortfalls in the N2K protocol. We still cannot configure attached equipment unless using vendor proprietary messages. Most of the symptoms you describe, and your experience with N2K deployment, shows up across all brands that I have seen. I can break all of the equipment with some electrical manipulation of the canbus physical layer. (PS - really like your new SHIP)



That being said, most DIY installs are not IEC compliant, so putting NMEA 0183 messages on that topology may also be problematic.


The point is, it can be messed up either way physically. But, to get the most features, with the protocols available, N2K connected VHF of the same brand as your main nav equipment, will be the ONLY way to get to DSC nirvana.

 

[wkearney99]

I wonder why they aren't all using the standard messages in N2K that supposedly support this. It seems like another failing of N2K to deliver as a system.

I don't know that it's Furuno's messages or that the es128 doesn't have that functionality. The PGNs for DSC have existed for a while. Could be that Furuno is just the first to actually follow through on it in a round-trip fashion.

This reminds me of telephone numbers. These days how many new people do you know and have in your phone... but don't know their actual telephone number any more? I know it's a lot for me. I've got dozens of folks I now only know my their name, not their phone number or e-mail address. As opposed to the past when you might have known not only their phone number, but also knew where that area code was located, or even the first 3 digits as their local phone exchange. Today none of that really matters any more.

DSC seems to fall into this category. But there wasn't ever enough reason to use it to justify making the mental effort to remember the DSC numbers for any of your friends. Hailing or otherwise 'knowing' they were already on the water was less trouble than trying to punch digits into awkward user interfaces on the VHF. Maybe with better DSC contact management will have a chance. I'm not holding my breath.

 

[wkearney99]

And this recent gizmo from Yacht Design could be an interesting way to 'fix' cross-vendor compliance problems.

NMEA 2000 Bridge from Yacht Devices

Catch one set of messages on one connector, fix them and re-transmit them over on the other.

 

[dwilkieo]

I hesitate to speak to this as a fact, but I am reasonably convinced that I could place a non-emergency DSC call to an AIS contact with my Raymarine C120 MFD talking to a Standard Horizon GX2200 AIS/GPS Radio conncected via NMEA0183. I would love to have somebody confirm that I did not imagine this.....

I mis-spoke in an earlier post about being able to do this with my Raymarine ES128 using the AIS650 and Ray60 VHF. All I have actually seen were emergency test calls on the screen of the MFD and I can not find any way to initiate a non-emergency call on the es128MFD, even with everything Raymarine and talking over the Raymarine SeatalkNG network.

 

[twistedtree]

I hesitate to speak to this as a fact, but I am reasonably convinced that I could place a non-emergency DSC call to an AIS contact with my Raymarine C120 MFD talking to a Standard Horizon GX2200 AIS/GPS Radio conncected via NMEA0183. I would love to have somebody confirm that I did not imagine this.....

I mis-spoke in an earlier post about being able to do this with my Raymarine ES128 using the AIS650 and Ray60 VHF. All I have actually seen were emergency test calls on the screen of the MFD and I can not find any way to initiate a non-emergency call on the es128MFD, even with everything Raymarine and talking over the Raymarine SeatalkNG network.

From what I saw in the 0183 DSC sentence, I think this is probably right. I'd be real interested if you are able to confirm.


From the messages, it looks like 0183 can handle distress calls as well as normal calls. But it looks like N2K's DSC PGN only covers distress calls, and that there is no providing in the N2K standard for placing and receiving normal calls with N2K control. I also found a reference to Simrad/B&G's use of proprietary PGNs for their DSC call control between MFD and their VHF. And Furuno's statement that theirs will not work with other VHFs tells me they are using proprietary PGNs too.


Now I'm interested to try DSC call control with 0183 to see how well it actually works. Sounds like it may very well work between vendors.

 

[Codger2]

I'm about to change out an old Raymarine radio and I need to know what manufacturer makes a high quality vhf that has large numbers and clear sound. DSC is appreciated but not required as I have that on a new SH.(The numbers and letters are too small for these 78 year old eyes)

I don't want a VHF with all the bells & whistles. (I have all of that on dedicated units.) Big numbers & good clear sound are what I'm after. Any thoughts out there?

 

[Larry M]

Walt: We have an Icom IC-M506. It has more stuff than you’re asking for but it has a big display and clear sound plus the mic has a speaker in it. If I’m having a hard time hearing someone I can put the microphone (HM205B) next to my ear. It’s a nice plus.

 

[dwilkieo]

From what I saw in the 0183 DSC sentence, I think this is probably right. I'd be real interested if you are able to confirm.

I am sorry that I can not. I sold the old C120 MFD and radio.

 

[LarryM]

I have an all Garmin electronics suite including VHF. It is very easy to initiate a DSC call from the plotter. I suspect the standard vs. proprietary features on this table are similar across all brands. The GPS position and any received DSC distress or position info is passed between devices on NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000. The 'advanced' features such as initiating calls from plotters, MOB etc. are proprietary and NMEA 2000 only. Maybe the 'common' functionality is limited to the data contained in the standard NMEA sentences or PGN's, just a guess.

 

[CEC]

This is a screaming good deal! I just picked one up for my boat too good to pass up: https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?path=-1%7C344%7C2028691%7C2207355&id=5383844

 

[Codger2]

Requirements are:
Good quality radio that's easy to see the characters.
DCS
Hailer
Don't care about GPS or AIS.... have that elsewhere.

.

I have the very same wants. After talking with my electronics guru, here's what we decided on. (Note I have GPS everywhere on the boat and a black box AIS transceiver!

https://www.northernmarineelectroni...MIkpLKtLHw4AIVkaDsCh2Q3wbMEAkYBCABEgLYtvD_BwE

After installation and trying it out, I'll post my review here.