iPad enough?

[Baker]

I think touchscreens are here to stay and I like them. I actually bought one, A Garmin 741. It was on sale and I bought it because the price was so good at the time. I was reluctant about the whole touchscreen thing. I love it. I have never had an issue with being able to manipulate it due to weather. And when you can execute actions with as few as 3 "touches", those actions take only seconds versus moving a cursor around. Anyway, I didn't think I would like them as much as I do. But I do.

As far as iPads and their ability to be seen in the sunlight...as long as you are not expecting to be in DIRECT sunlight, you should be fine. And even then, you can still see them. But the shade of a bimini will always provide enough shade to be able to see the screen easily. As an airline pilot, our entire world is on that iPad. And there are conditions we are in that are as bright as possible and I have never struggled to see the screen. With that said, other tablets and laptops do not have the same quality of screen as the iPad(except Mac). Apple uses premium parts, which is why they are so expensive, versus sourcing to the lowest bidder to hit a price point. I would not expect your average run of the mill HP(insert brand here) laptop to have as bright of a screen as an iPad.

I have a non GPS iPad that I use for planning and as a "paper chart" and use the chartplotter as the primary navigation tool. I do have an XGPS150 bluetooth GPS for the iPad and I have Garmin Bluecharts with AC and also iSailor....both apps work very well.

 

[foggysail]

I HATE....D TOUCH SCREENS or so I told myself. Lost count of the number of times I have attempted to communicate with this old laptop by touching its screen

 

[Yahoo 1]

...

 

[Baker]

...

that is funny!!!!

 

[ksceviour]

We just installed a dedicated chart plotter however prior to that we used an i-Pad running Navionics software. This is now our backup system with the added bonus of being able to emulate (wireless) our Raymarine a97 display on the ipad for a fully functional second helm plottter. I wasn't happy with the accuracy provided by an i-Pads blended position so I purchased a BadElf GPS receiver. This plugs into the iPad dock or lightning connector and provides a pure GPS flow-through signal to any app that needs it.

Its a great inexpensive way to get a plotting system up and running.

 

[foggysail]

We just installed a dedicated chart plotter however prior to that we used an i-Pad running Navionics software. This is now our backup system with the added bonus of being able to emulate (wireless) our Raymarine a97 display on the ipad for a fully functional second helm plottter. I wasn't happy with the accuracy provided by an i-Pads blended position so I purchased a BadElf GPS receiver. This plugs into the iPad dock or lightning connector and provides a pure GPS flow-through signal to any app that needs it.

Its a great inexpensive way to get a plotting system up and running.

I don't know what model Ipad you have, mine is a 9.7" Ipad Pro. It features a built in GPS along with a bright screen. That Ipad has the same accuracy as my older Garmin which successfully helped me navigate during intense fog-- ie. foggysail.

Nice to be happy with your navigation tools

 

[Islanddreamer]

Dave / Pilou - been off TF for a few days but you are correct. The Bad Elf pictured above is the one I have and it communicates Bluetooth to my iPad. It is correct to about 6 feet or less for my location compared against my cell phone (which may not be as accurate). Using Navionics on the larger screen 12.9" iPad Pro gives me a huge chart that I can see in full daylight. Disclaimer - I do have a polycarbonate cover over the fly bridge, so the light is whatever comes in through the sides.

My older iPad displays my wireless radar from Furuno. I'm not a passage maker, so much of my boating is done in the Chesapeake Bay, and this setup is more than adequate for what I need, and it costs fewer boat bucks.

mike

 

[Islanddreamer]

Also - I have an older Garmin and it is too hard for me to see with the small screen. It's stowed below as a backup. Had an old Raymarine analog radar which I pruned off and gave to a friend.

With the fast pace of changes in the marine electronics market and cost of updating software, I can buy new every few years and stay up to date. Again - it depends on what you're after.

I will say that there are certain parts of the Chesapeake that have lousy cell service, so the Bad Elf was the best solution for me.

 

[meridian]

To those with an iPad and no SIM, or use it when out of cell range. How accurate is the GPS? 5 meters, 15 meters?

 

[Oldersalt]

Dear Meridian,

I have an older Ipad (3 or 4 years?) that has built-in GPS. To get it, I had to buy the cell-enabled version, but I never activated the cellular functionality.

So, this device determines its position using only GPS...no "triangulating" between cell towers or any of that stuff.

To answer your question, at full zoom-in my Navionics s/w shows my boat sitting in its own berth, not the ones on either side. I'd say the accuracy is better than 2 meters.

Ain't science grand?

Best,
Oldersalt

"Everything on your boat is broken. You just don't know it yet."




To those with an iPad and no SIM, or use it when out of cell range. How accurate is the GPS? 5 meters, 15 meters?
__________________
-------------------------
Terry
Meridian
KK-42097

 

[foggysail]

Dear Meridian,

I have an older Ipad (3 or 4 years?) that has built-in GPS. To get it, I had to buy the cell-enabled version, but I never activated the cellular functionality.

So, this device determines its position using only GPS...no "triangulating" between cell towers or any of that stuff.

To answer your question, at full zoom-in my Navionics s/w shows my boat sitting in its own berth, not the ones on either side. I'd say the accuracy is better than 2 meters.

Ain't science grand?

Best,
Oldersalt

"Everything on your boat is broken. You just don't know it yet."




To those with an iPad and no SIM, or use it when out of cell range. How accurate is the GPS? 5 meters, 15 meters?
__________________
-------------------------
Terry
Meridian
KK-42097

Sure...two meters is what I guess my accuracy is also. Very, very impressed with teh Ipad along with the navigation programs available for almost free.

 

[cafesport]

Actually I think in some cases an iPad might be considered overkill.

 

[ranger58sb]

I will say that there are certain parts of the Chesapeake that have lousy cell service, so the Bad Elf was the best solution for me.

???

If the cellular-capable (therefore GPS-enabled) iPad doesn't need cellular access to get a GPS fix... why would a Bad Elf be best?

???

(Our tablets are all Android, so I'm just trying to understand...)

-Chris

 

[Rossland]

???

If the cellular-capable (therefore GPS-enabled) iPad doesn't need cellular access to get a GPS fix... why would a Bad Elf be best?

???

(Our tablets are all Android, so I'm just trying to understand...)

-Chris

There is no difference. Bad ELF is for adding GPS capability to a non-GPS iPad. I think confusion resulted because GPS enabled iPads can also connect to cell service. But the two capabilities are not dependant on each other.

 

[schrater]

I had thought all iPad models include GPS. But a double-check on their website confirms GPS is only included in cellular models (though you don't need cellular activated to use the GPS).

 

[dhays]

@ranger42c: Some of the posters must be referring to older iPad models, because I know that the entire line of current iPads come with GPS built in, regardless of model or options chosen. Cellular has never been a requirement for GPS to function, but it's possible that some older models may have only included GPS along with their cellular versions. Although I'm sure BadElf works great, I think there's a bit of misinformation out there about GPS and cellular, and more people may have GPS than realize it.

I think you are wrong on this. I believe that currently, as they have been for as long as I can recall, the only iPads with built-in gps are the Wifi+Cellular version. The Wifi only version do not have the GPS receiver.

As my wife reminds me regularly however, I could be wrong.

 

[Larry M]

.... the only iPads with built-in gps are the Wifi+Cellular version. The Wifi only version do not have the GPS receiver...

You're correct per Apples web site. iPad*Air*2 - Technical Specifications - Apple

Scroll down to the location section. The Air 2 wifi does not have the gps or glonass.

 

[schrater]

OK, thanks @dhays. I spoke to an Apple rep about this, and he told me all models include GPS. But a double-check on their website confirms you are correct, GPS is only included in cellular models (though you don't need cellular activated to use the GPS). All iPad models do include WiFi. Whew! Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Jeffrey S]

40% of Apple store employees don't know which iPad models have real GPS from my 20 visits over the years. 50% of the ones who think all iPads have GPS end up in a severe disagreement with me until we go to the actual Apple website and they then say, "wow - never knew that."

It's really simple...

Since 2005, E911 has required cellular devices to be able to report position on 911 calls. In the beginning, early cell phones had a GPS to handle this. Starting around 2007, the cellular radio chip manufacturers all put GPS hardware onto the cellular chipsets. Since it was required anyway, it was a selling point for their chips. Then every chip manufacturer had it so they all had to continue having a real GPS on the cellular chip.

So today, if the device has cellular capabilities, it has real GPS hardware. You don't need to be using the cellular parts of the chip - the GPS is still available to the designer to use. And iOS/Android have support for it.

This means that every cellular Apple device has a real GPS - all iPhones and cellular iPads. WiFi-only iPads don't have the cellular chip so you have to add GPS hardware to get GPS capabilities with Bad Elf, Garmin, etc. Every iPhone has a real GPS because every iPhone is cellular (duh).

If you have a chance of needing GPS for an iPad (which is pretty much everyone), ALWAYS buy the cellular model even if you never enable a cellular plan on it. iPads make pretty great car navigation devices too - check out Waze on it while driving.

 

[ranger58sb]

Since 2005, E911 has required cellular devices to be able to report position on 911 calls. In the beginning, early cell phones had a GPS to handle this. Starting around 2007, the cellular radio chip manufacturers all put GPS hardware onto the cellular chipsets. Since it was required anyway, it was a selling point for their chips. Then every chip manufacturer had it so they all had to continue having a real GPS on the cellular chip.

Hah! First time I've heard a logical explanation for why Apple implemented GPS that way. Thanks.

I had previously just assumed they were price-gouging...

-Chris

 

[ksceviour]

Yeah should have mentioned that my pad did not have a GPS chip set. Nonetheless, I'm reluctant to rely entirely on the iPads GPS module and this is why;
I work for a major North American airline and we use the latest GPS enabled 4G iPads while airborne and one of the apps installed has a moving map function providing situational awareness (not navigation). We constantly lose the GPS signal making the function very unreliable if not virtually useless and this is at 40,000 feet and a clear view of the sky. Plug in an external GPS antenna and it works fine. While its possible I'd say its unlikely this issue of signal loss is restricted to airplanes and the last place I want to be proving that is underway in poor visibility on the water.

I would suggest that the GPS chip in an iPad was not intended for primary source navigation by design and I wouldn't trust it without an external antenna albeit a great many people do so uneventfully. Granted it will place you precisely in your slip so the accuracy with a good signal is undisputed. It's the reliability of signal reception that should be questioned. An external GPS antenna will undoubtedly provide a 'more reliable' position fix.

 

[dhays]

It's really simple...

Since 2005, E911 has required cellular devices to be able to report position on 911 calls. In the beginning, early cell phones had a GPS to handle this. Starting around 2007, the cellular radio chip manufacturers all put GPS hardware onto the cellular chipsets. Since it was required anyway, it was a selling point for their chips. Then every chip manufacturer had it so they all had to continue having a real GPS on the cellular chip.

It is simple only if you have the correct information, which I do now thanks to you.

That explanation makes a lot of sense and is something that I never knew, although sounds familiar. Now all I have to do is remember it.

 

[Rossland]

Yeah should have mentioned that my pad did not have a GPS chip set. Nonetheless, I'm reluctant to rely entirely on the iPads GPS module and this is why;
I work for a major North American airline and we use the latest GPS enabled 4G iPads while airborne and one of the apps installed has a moving map function providing situational awareness (not navigation). We constantly lose the GPS signal making the function very unreliable if not virtually useless and this is at 40,000 feet and a clear view of the sky. Plug in an external GPS antenna and it works fine. While its possible I'd say its unlikely this issue of signal loss is restricted to airplanes and the last place I want to be proving that is underway in poor visibility on the water.

I would suggest that the GPS chip in an iPad was not intended for primary source navigation by design and I wouldn't trust it without an external antenna albeit a great many people do so uneventfully. Granted it will place you precisely in your slip so the accuracy with a good signal is undisputed. It's the reliability of signal reception that should be questioned. An external GPS antenna will undoubtedly provide a 'more reliable' position fix.

I think there is a misunderstanding of how GPS works. GPS signals go through fiberglas but they do not go through metal, and since commercial aircraft are mostly metal, GPS signal reception inside the aircraft will be poor to non existent. But hold the iPad up to a window, and you won't have that problem, unless of course the window has imbedded heating wires. Actually, I am surprised that the IT dept of your airline didn't know that, or perhaps they are not aware that someone is trying to use iPads this way.

 

[ksceviour]

I think there is a misunderstanding of how GPS works. GPS signals go through fiberglas but they do not go through metal, and since commercial aircraft are mostly metal, GPS signal reception inside the aircraft will be poor to non existent. But hold the iPad up to a window, and you won't have that problem, unless of course the window has imbedded heating wires. Actually, I am surprised that the IT dept of your airline didn't know that, or perhaps they are not aware that someone is trying to use iPads this way.

Well, lets not get into a discussion on GPS theory or Flight Operations. I've been using GPS professionally since they were launched (dating myself there) and airplanes are not 'mostly metal' these days. Modern aircraft (I fly the B787 Dreamliner) are mostly composite material.

In any event, the question is about reception using the iPads internal GPS antenna. The iPad GPS antenna is not sensitive enough whereas an external in the same environment inches from the pad will work. It doesn't matter where you place the iPad on the flight deck, it still isn't sensitive enough (I've tried). The external antenna is sensitive enough and both antennas are next to the same window. The iPad will detect intermittent signals, presumably as satellite geometry changes, but thats it. My point remains, the iPad's GPS antenna is not equivalent to an external one. Will the iPad's internal position degrade significantly under fiberglass or a bimini? Probably not. But what happens under bridges, beside high cliffs, next to big boats or any combination of these? This would have to be determined and I don't want to be the one determining.

As for the airline being aware I'll just reiterate that the pad isn't intended to be used for navigation by the pilots. It just happens to have an 'own position' function on an an app we use routinely in flight. We can use it if we want or not. What the observations tell me though is that as a primary source navigation tool the iPad GPS sensitivity is less than ideal when compared to that available using external antennas.

 

[Martin J]

Assuming you travel with a laptop
Buy a $30 GPS Reciever https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008200LHW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Downoad free software open Capn or similar
Download the noaaa charts (free)
Your up and running for $30 on your laptop.

I might add this is easier to use run tham my 2K Garmin MFD

 

[Jeffrey S]

We constantly lose the GPS signal making the function very unreliable if not virtually useless and this is at 40,000 feet and a clear view of the sky.

The rumor about that (Apple isn't saying for sure) is that the onboard iPad GPS is optimized for lower speed travel. Go a few hundred MPH and you're outside the design for iOS. There are plenty of reasons for this might be done.

So a good test would be to see the speed at which the iPad GPS becomes less reliable. I don't see any other difference that could cause less reliability.

 

[North Baltic sea]

I apologize in advance.


it has been interesting to follow the debate with TF feared electronics for diesel engines with common rail, turbo discomfited marine engine that meets soon as 100 years, and has proven the reliability of the ocean, many fear it like monsters. In the navigation, while being willing to trust Apple etc.

 

[psneeld]

The rumor about that (Apple isn't saying for sure) is that the onboard iPad GPS is optimized for lower speed travel. Go a few hundred MPH and you're outside the design for iOS. There are plenty of reasons for this might be done.

So a good test would be to see the speed at which the iPad GPS becomes less reliable. I don't see any other difference that could cause less reliability.

I agree.....all at once I can see the navigation results of chartplotter, a gps enabled VHF radio, a gps enables laptop, a pad with gps and a smart phone gps.

Often there are discrepancies more with the plotted position than the actual lat/long. Though there can be differences in the lat/long readouts, they are usually close enough and jump around enough to say the plotted average wouldn't matter but at any moment in time it could.

One of the biggest discrepancies between all the units is speed readout.....at 6.3 knots I will see some jump as much as a half knot or slightly more off. Yes I have played with all the internal filtering options, etc....but they still don't all match at any given time.

So I can see at 500 knots plus, the plotting and filtering might be critical.

I also suspect that each units ability to see all the satellites may be compromised also....only the laptop has the antenna in the best location and it doesn't even seem to be the benchmark for the others.

 

[Yahoo 1]

The rumor about that (Apple isn't saying for sure) is that the onboard iPad GPS is optimized for lower speed travel. Go a few hundred MPH and you're outside the design for iOS. There are plenty of reasons for this might be done.

So a good test would be to see the speed at which the iPad GPS becomes less reliable. I don't see any other difference that could cause less reliability.

About the speed, I'm always impressed with the quality and accuracy of the built in GPS on iPad wifi & cellular.

Pics # 1 & 2 :
Sitting at my place in the middle of the (high speed) train to Paris, 1.20 meter from the window, it didn't take long to display position and speed (305 km/h = 190 milles/hour) despite the huge electromagnetic field all around.

Pic # 3
Aboard a jet flying from Amsterdam to Inverness Scotland, 410 knots.

 

[Islanddreamer]

(305 km/h = 190 milles/hour)
Aboard a jet flying from Amsterdam to Inverness Scotland, 410 knots.

I guess we're good to go running at 8 knots...