How much should I use?

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Unclematt

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2020
Messages
318
Location
United States
Vessel Name
Seaview
Vessel Make
Sundowner 32
I have three new series 32 - 1000 CCA house batteries. Over this past winter the boat was professionally rewired, All of the electrical switches, panels, chargers, inverter, cables, ect,,,were also replaced. I leave the anchor light, fridge, head, freshwater pump and 12 volt chargers on overnight. How much battery should I be using? Most times they are at 44% in the morning unless I run a 12 volt fan a while then it is lower. This is my first muliti system boat so I still have a lot to learn. Give me your thoughts. I got carried away and wanted everything done right and updated, Lets just say it did not stop with the electrical.
 
I have three new series 32 - 1000 CCA house batteries. Over this past winter the boat was professionally rewired, All of the electrical switches, panels, chargers, inverter, cables, ect,,,were also replaced. I leave the anchor light, fridge, head, freshwater pump and 12 volt chargers on overnight. How much battery should I be using? Most times they are at 44% in the morning unless I run a 12 volt fan a while then it is lower. This is my first muliti system boat so I still have a lot to learn. Give me your thoughts. I got carried away and wanted everything done right and updated, Lets just say it did not stop with the electrical.

What type of batteries do you have? CCA is cold cranking amps and that is a measurement for starting an engine not for deep cycle which is what you want for house batteries. If they are LA batteries then generally you don’t want to discharge below 50%. Check what type exactly you have and let us know.
 
Greetings,
Mr. U. Something seem amiss. The ONLY thing that will be a constant draw overnight is the one anchor light. The fridge, water pump and head should only draw current when running. I'm also confused as to why your charger is on. Are you hooked up to shore power? If so, you should have 100% charge in the morning.

Mr. C raises a very valid point in that you may have the wrong batteries (not deep cycle).
 
If as I suspect you have Engine Start batteries, then you have likely weakened them considerably. They are built with thin plates to give maximum cranking power for a few seconds at a time. They are then almost immediately recharged to 100% by the alternator. They are not designed to be drawn down anywhere near 50%. Drawn down that far will damage the plates and weaken the ability to hold a charge - which may well be your problem. House batteries have really thick plates specifically intended to be drawn down to X% where X depends upon the composition of the battery. Liquid Acid, Sealed, AGM all have different characteristics but as a general rule I try not to draw down below 65% with 50% being my absolute minimum. Treating AGMs like this I have had them last 7 years and still going strong.

Since you can measure your battery percentage I assume you can also measure the amps flowing from it when you are discharging over night. Turn off all your electrical items, one by one, until you figure out what is the big draw. If its the anchor light then upgrade to LED if you have not already. Note Fridge and Head should be Zero except when actually running.

Bottom line you likely need new house batteries, along with instructions on how much to discharge them. Also you may need to set up your charger to the correct charging characteristics for the batteries chosen. Most modern chargers have multiple settings for Liquid, AGM etc batteries.
 
With extensive electrical revisions, it would be surprising the electrician installed all start batteries. There are batts with stored amp and cca ratings, not necessarily mutually exclusive. IGs for example, per factory,used 2 8Ds for start and house. Maybe sub optimal, but it can work. Truck and bus batteries are often dual function. Even so they should not be discharged nightly to 44% or less, though the % may depend on the accuracy of the SOC meter. They certainly should not reach that vicinity overnight with a charger operating. The anchor light is on, so likely it`s not on shore power. More info please, Unclematt.
 
What does series 32 mean? Do you mean 31? Is this the brand?
If not, what is the brand? Are all three wired in parallel? Maybe only one is house and the other two wired for starting.
Have you checked each battery voltage measured directly on the battery terminals? Maybe one of them is bad.
Are they sealed or have caps?
Of the loads listed the refrigerator uses the most power in a typical overnight on the anchor. What amount of time is the compressor running? I’m going to guess more than 50% runtime.
 
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Sorry fat fingers, They are group 31 deep cycle 1000 CCA Interstate lead acid batteries. The charger is only used when the genset is running or when I am on shore power. There is no drain at all when the boat is shut down. The anchor light is a new LED and the fridge is a new Isotherm drink. I get the readings from the new meter in the new panel. I might be reading it wrong. I will get a picture tonight for you to see. Because the whole system is new I really don't yet understand how to read it. My start batteries are separate as is my genset and thruster batteries. I hate to keep saying new but all of it is. My wife asked the other day if I would get my money back if I sold it now. I said not even close. She has no idea what I spent.
 
As mentioned, house batteries should be deep cycle type which should have an amp/hour rating. Starting batteries have a CCA rating. There are also dual purpose batteries which have would have both ratings.

It sounds as your batteries may be starting batteries which aren't designed to be used for house batteries.

Your fridge is the biggest user of power. It may use 20 - 100 amp hours overnight depending on fridge size and ambient temperature. An average group 31 deep cycle battery is about 100 amp hour capacity. If you have starting batteries, the amp hour capacity would be much less.

You need find out exactly what batteries you have.
 
The Interstate batteries I see on the internet have a 31-XXX model. Depending on the model they can be starting or deep cycle. You need to check the actual model number on the batteries.
 
Matthew. This may seem like a stupid question to ask, but do you have an inverter on the boat? If so, double check to make sure that it is turned off.

Also, what type of State of Charge meter do you have? If it is a coulomb counter, you will want to check to be sure that it is setup with the correct approximation of your battery bank Ahs.

If you have one if the newer SOC meters that use some type of voodoo black magic, I understand it takes a while for them to be accurate.
 
Guru, The inverter is off both at the mastervolt touch screen and the main switch, I do have new SOC meters that I am still trying to understand. I am going to take a look at the house batteries to see if they are definitely deep cycle. What I really want to know is what you go by it % or remaining voltage? How low does yours go overnight with what I listed in my first post turned on.
 
Seems like you have a bank of start batts, not deep cycle. They make crappy house batts. I'd suggest getting 4-6 Golf Cart lead acids (if LA is what you're using) and, if needed, upgrade your charging systems to accommodate the larger bank. Last I looked, the batteries were about $100 at Costco and Sam's Club.
 
Guru, The inverter is off both at the mastervolt touch screen and the main switch, I do have new SOC meters that I am still trying to understand. I am going to take a look at the house batteries to see if they are definitely deep cycle. What I really want to know is what you go by it % or remaining voltage? How low does yours go overnight with what I listed in my first post turned on.


Our boats are going to be entirely different. I have a house bank with a nominal 780Ah house bank. (It will have dropped since installed new). Running an anchor light, some cabin lights, charging devices such as cell phones etc, a refrigerator, a 12v cooler and the inverter on overnight, I am at about 80% SOC in the morning.

There are two types of SOC meters that I know of. The old school type are coulomb counters. That is what I have. This simply counters the number of coulombs sent to the battery and the amount of coulombs from the battery. In its most simple terms, if the batteries are fully charged and you draw down 100 coulombs and add back in 50 coulombs, the SOC meter simply tells you that you have a 50 coulomb deficit. Of course it doesn’t give you that information in coulombs but in amp hours (1 Ah = 3600 coulombs I believe).

So, if you have a 300 Ah bank, to be down to 44% SOC you would have needed to use 168 Ah of charge overnight. I would guess (and I’m a terrible guesser) than an Isotherm fridge in good condition would draw about 50 Ah/day. Overnight, maybe a third of that or about 17 Ah. Your LED anchor light will be negligible at less than 1 Ah for a long winters night.

So something doesn’t seem to add up. 3 group 31 deep cycle batteries should be at least 300 Ah. I don’t see you using 168 Ah overnight with just refrigeration, head, and anchor light.

So either your batteries aren’t what you think they are, you have some large draw that you are missing, or your SOC meter isn’t setup properly and is giving you faulty readings.

The size of the battery bank has to be input into the SOC meter to be able for it to give you valid SOC %. Even then, consider it an estimate.

Your SOC meter should help you out however. It will tell you how many amps are being drawn from the battery at any given time. So turn off everything in the boat and then turn on one item at a time and see what the amp draw is on your SOC meter. Keep in mind that your refrigerator will only draw when the compressor is running. You might be able to find some draw that is a surprise this way.

Then find out the nominal size of your battery bank and make sure that value is input in to the SOC meter setup.

Finally, don’t really pay any attention to me since I don’t know what I’m talking about. It says “Guru” under my name only because I have posted a lot. It is not a reflection of my actual knowledge.
 
... I am going to take a look at the house batteries to see if they are definitely deep cycle. What I really want to know is what you go by it % or remaining voltage? How low does yours go overnight with what I listed in my first post turned on.
Deep cycle batts are ok for starting, but start batts are not so good powering the house. Then there are "dual purpose", ie supposedly designed for both purposes. It`s good you will check what you have.
As to your last query, battery voltage is an indication of state of charge, but just that, an indication. 12.6 or above is "full", but doesn`t mean they won`t happily take some charge.
Maybe talk to your electrician who did the rewiring etc about the function of and getting the SOC meter to understand what it is seeing, maybe he installed it. As dhays says it can need help at first.
 
Have you called the person that did the update/install/rewire and asked them to commission the system with you so you understand the whole system and can ask them to clarify any questions you may have?
 
Thanks, I will be on the boat tonight, Henri was sharing more rain last night so I stayed ashore. I will be checking the batteries and I have a call into my electrician to get more info on the SOC.
 
OK I feel like a dope. The batteries were new last May. I had the PO replace them as a negotiation when my bought the boat. I did look at them quickly the day we closed. Tonight I went down and read them. They are Deep Cycle series 24 with 550 CCA. Now I must decide the best replacement is. Thanks to all of you.
 
OK I feel like a dope. The batteries were new last May. I had the PO replace them as a negotiation when my bought the boat. I did look at them quickly the day we closed. Tonight I went down and read them. They are Deep Cycle series 24 with 550 CCA. Now I must decide the best replacement is. Thanks to all of you.
A CCA spec is for start battys not deep cycle (if FLA)
Do they list a AH spec? If not they are NOT deep cycle!
My guess and only a guess is PO just bought & installed the lowest cost battys he could find.
See
https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/
 
A CCA spec is for start battys not deep cycle (if FLA)
Do they list a AH spec? If not they are NOT deep cycle!
My guess and only a guess is PO just bought & installed the lowest cost battys he could find.
See https://marinehowto.com/what-is-a-deep-cycle-battery/

Yup! :iagree:

IMO...

Rule 1. Deep cycles are rated in ah 20 hr rate.
Rule 2. If your lead acid batts are "maintenance free" without removable caps, they're not a true deep cycle.
Rule 3. All lead acid deep cycle batteries need rewatering periodically. DAMHIK...

I would suspect than ANY Group 24 is NOT a true deep cycle battery.
 
Now to figure out the best way to get the most ah with the space I have. I will finish out the season with these and make the upgrade while on the hard. These are the things I need to learn more about. In May of 2022 I start my solo Great Loop trip. This is why almost everything has been replaced or redone. I want everything done right so I can minimize failures along the way. Thanks again
 
Maybe get Nigel Calders book on electrical and mechanical boat work. Great reference manual.
 
I think a lot of the group 24 batteries are a deep cycle AGMs. Typically they may have a Ah rating of around maybe 80 Ah.

So if you have 320 Ah in your bank, do the math from there. If you identify the actual manufacturer, you can likely find the specific Ah rating for those batteries.

I agree thought that the PO likely cheaped out on the batteries unless that was what was in there when you looked at the boat.

If you have good access to the battery location, you can’t go wrong with 6v Golf Cart batteries. In the mean time, try to keep from discharging your current batteries below 50% SOC.
 
The first thing you actually need to do is positively identify what batteries you have installed. Until you do that we are all just guessing. Get the manufacturer and any numbers that are on the battery.
 
I found a boat once with a battery issue. His Inverter powered the entire ac panel, INCLUDING his battery charger. You know where this went. Shutting off that breaker to the charger solved his power issues.
 
Agree that actual specs would help.

But even if you have super high quality Lifeline AGM's, Group 24 are only going to hold about 80 ah apiece (we're talking of the various lead acid type batteries here, such as flooded, AGM, or gel.... not LFP).

3 batteries at 80ah apiece is 240 amp hours. So about 120 ah usable even if they are the best kind. That's a pretty minimal house bank for most people (not everyone, but most).

BTW, if your boat has the under-counter style fridge, you probably have something no larger than 130 liters or about 4.5 cubic feet. Perhaps using the Danfoss/Secop BD35 compressor. If it's a "drink" model it may not even have a freezer.

I've been running a fridge of that size and living basically on DC power for some years (solar), so I have a pretty good idea of how many ah it takes per day. Obviously this is dependent on ambient temperature, and your installation; but I'd say something from 30-60 ah per 24 hour day would be a reasonable guestimate (presuming not in the tropics). I just mention it because some others who estimate more may have larger trawlers with full height refrigerators that have larger freezers. Of course they draw more.

Another thing to note is that due to something called Peukert effect, the batteries react worse to a large load/small time than they do to a small load/large time. So for example running something that draws 20 amps for two minutes, exhausts the batteries more than running something that draws 4 amps for 10 hours (even though both add up to 40ah). Just a note in case you are using anything like a microwave, or anything that makes heat via electricity.

Voltage is not typically a very reliable way to gauge your state of charge (SOC), especially if you are relatively new to the care and feeding of a house bank. Reason is that unless the bank has been resting (no loads) for many hours it won't be accurate. If you are using power or charging then the bank is not resting.

Hence using a battery monitor is useful. They either use a shunt and count amps, or there are some that do use voltage but they do it by checking voltage thousands of times and applying an algorithm. (For example, original Smart Gauge.)

Given your plans, I would say you are most likely going to want to re-do your battery bank completely, and possibly parts of your DC system (depending on what you have now). But as you say, you can get through the rest of the season on what you have, and then take your time researching and getting squared away for your loop trip (sounds fun!) over the off-season. Pressure's off on "not wrecking" those batteries if so :thumb:

I don't know the details of your situation or setup, but until you find out your specific details, I wouldn't assume your system is set up for a relaxed loop trip. I only say that because I can't imagine doing a big electrical job for someone and not noticing that the main house bank is a bit small (or at least mentioning it).

Of course a lot depends on how you travel. If you go marina to marina and so are motoring most days and plugged in most nights, then you may be fine. I'm an anchorer so I approach my system with that in mind. Many ways can work, just depending on your style. But as you are realizing, knowing what you have and how it works can make things a lot more enjoyable, whatever your setup or boating style.
 
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Everyone has correctly made suggestions on the storage side of the equation. However, before buying new batteries, I'd strongly suggest that you need to know what these batteries are expected to do. Use your meter to calculate how many ah you need for each item you are powering and add these all together to get a total. It sounds as if you don't have a large system so this shouldn't be too difficult. If in doubt just use your meter to measure the whole boat over a 24 hour period. Double that number to get your minimum bank size to give you 50% DOD on days when there is no charge source available.

Can you fit enough batteries to cater for this? Can you fit more for peace of mind and longer battery life? No one ever complains about having too much battery storage.

Good luck
 
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