Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-08-2021, 05:30 PM   #1
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
High Output Alternator for QSB380

Hello Everyone
Well we went into the Lithium battery world with eyes wide open knowing full well that a big tank is great but you still have to fill it.
We changed out our house bank to 5, 100ah Battleborn batteries. This also included a WS500 external regulator etc.
Engine is a QSB 380 Cummins with a 120 amp alternator.
On the maiden voyage we noted that the alternator was running too hot (230degrees ).
We are considering ( only considering if we have to) going to a higher output alternator.
Does anyone out there know of a direct fit replacement that can put out say 240 amps. Without creating a bunch of heat.
Thoughts and experiences would be appreciated.

Brent
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 05:50 PM   #2
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,620
High Output Alternator for QSB380

You will need a better regulator for your alternator and with a temperature sensor. Thatís really important from what I understand to be true. Evidently, itís pretty easy to fry your alternator. Many people are using the Wakespeed controller that is programable.

http://wakespeed.com

No doubt others will chime in.

Jim
JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 05:59 PM   #3
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
Hi Jim
As mentioned we already have a WakeSpeed 500. I took our existing alternator in and had the internal regulator removed and added the WS500.

Brent
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 06:13 PM   #4
Senior Member
 
bshanafelt's Avatar
 
City: Port Orchard, WA
Vessel Name: Isobel K
Vessel Model: 37' Custom Pilothouse
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 363
if you search the archives on this topic, there are a number of ways folks have done this.

Cummins does have an adapter for a large frame alternator, assuming you have clearance for the big unit.

then the trail begins..... upsize wiring, upsize terminal blocks, upsize cooling capacities etc etc.
bshanafelt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 06:38 PM   #5
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,620
High Output Alternator for QSB380

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phase3 View Post
Hi Jim
As mentioned we already have a WakeSpeed 500. I took our existing alternator in and had the internal regulator removed and added the WS500.

Brent

Sorry about that. Early onset I guess!

I presume you have an alternator temperature sensor? I believe the regulator is fully programable, so you should be able to control output.
JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 07:33 PM   #6
Valued Technical Contributor
 
DavidM's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 6,158
An expensive way to go is a Balmar high output alternator with their external regulator and temperature sensor. A cheaper way would be to go with a Leece Neville alternator which should fit, but make sure that you get one that is designed for external regulators.

240 amps would be too big IMO. 150 or so would be about right. You should be able to charge at 100 amps continuously with such an alternator.

FWIW the Balmar heat sensor cuts back the charging current by half when it senses an alternator case temperature higher than about 185. As you note 230 is too high. I would keep it down to less than 200.

David
DavidM is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 07:56 PM   #7
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
Hi Jim
Yes it is fully programmable. Tech is coming tomorrow to make a straight run with 2/0 cabling from alt to house bank tomorrow morning. Weíll run the engine and take temps to see if they go down. If not we will dial back the demand on the alternator. Not ideal but we knew this could be an issue from the beginning. So far though the batteries are impressive.
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 08:01 PM   #8
Guru
 
tpbrady's Avatar
 
City: Gooding ID/Wrangell AK
Vessel Name: Silver Bay
Vessel Model: Nordic Tug 42-002
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 773
If you want to go with a larger alternator you might want to contact Seaboard Marine, sbmar.com. They are experts on Cummins.

Tom
tpbrady is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 08:16 PM   #9
Guru
 
C lectric's Avatar
 
City: Gibsons, B.C., Canada
Vessel Name: Island Pride
Vessel Model: Palmer 32'
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 3,706
I agree about Seaboard.
www.sbmar.com

BUT Take some photos of the existing alternator in enough detail to show the bracketry in as much detail as you can. There are several different bracket types.
Also find the specific mfgr. name, model number and post it. Cummins has used many different alternators over the years. A clear photo of the name plate would help.
You will need this info if Seaboard or anyone else is to help you.

You do need to use the Wakespeed temperature sensor function or you will burn up your alternator. Most of them are not rated to run continuously over 200 -240 F or so degrees. THere are some that are but if you work them hard enough, long enough even they can be destroyed.

You should NOT need to dial back the demand. THat's the wrong end. Rather use that temperature function. That is what it is for. That way the regulator will cut the alternator output back. As the batteries pick up charge then the heating will be reduced and the regulator will allow the alternator to produce more continually.
C lectric is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 10:06 PM   #10
Guru
 
JDCAVE's Avatar
 
City: Lions Bay, BC
Vessel Name: Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,620
High Output Alternator for QSB380

I agree with Clectric. Somehow the regulator is not controlling for the temperature.

I looked at the Wakespeed website and watched a video on YouTube. There is a Firmware update and an opportunity to program for the alternator make and model.

Jim
JDCAVE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 10:59 PM   #11
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
David. Thanks for the input. I think you may be right with 180 vs 240.
Leech Neville does appear to be a more cost effective option. Not really interested in spending $1500.00 on an alternator.
I’ll keep everyone posted tomorrow as the tech is coming back to run the dedicated 2/0 lines.
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 11:06 PM   #12
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
Fairly sure we are using the WS temp sensor function as that’s likely why the alternator shut down after 5 hours of running at 220 - 230 F????
Will ask the tech about updates tomorrow and let everyone know.
You’re all along for the ride.
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2021, 11:13 PM   #13
TF Site Team
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Vessel Name: Black Dog
Vessel Model: Formula 41PC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 13,877
We put lithium batteries in our last boat. I used the Balmar 624, I think, regulator. It had an alternator load setting that would essentially let you derate the alternator so it wasnít trying to output the max current. Never done anything with Wakespeed but they probably have a similar setting.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2021, 01:32 AM   #14
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,049
I had the same problem on my QSB 380. Depending on the vintage of QSB, it will either have a 2" mount or a J180 4" mount. The parts are available from Cummins to change to the J180 if you have the earlier one, however you will have to work for it as the parts are not in distribution or listed in distribution. I can provide the part numbers.

I had the stock Delco 19si, supposed to be 120A I think, but would actually do about 60 once warm.

Once you have the J180 mount (it is an easy bolt on) there are a number of choices. I fit a Delco 28si, available in 160 and 180A specs, J180 short hinge is what you want. These are about $300 online and are designed for continuous bus service. You will need to take it to an alternator shop and get it converted for external regulation (should be about $100). Swap the existing K8 pulley over, they are unique to Cummins. It just barely fits, I had to make a custom top arm. I can get about 120A continuous out of it, limited to 107 deg C. with a Balmar 614. Starts out at about 170 cold but that only lasts a few minutes. The Wakespeed should be similar (I've got a Wakespeed to install but haven't done that yet). Balmar's default of 100C will drop it another 20 or more amps - very sensitive to that setting.

I tried a Balmar alternator they recommended ($1200) and it failed miserably - insufficient output at idle to keep up with engine electronics so I'd get all sorts of alarms at idle. Can't turn the idle up easily (or maybe not at all) on a QSB. I've given up on these expensive aftermarket marine only alternators - very expensive without the added value.

Delco now has a 40si available in a J180 short hinge, up to 320A spec. This looks a little larger than the 28si and might have trouble with the remote oil filter lines. The remote filter is of dubious value in many installations and I'd consider removing it. I'm not sure how much is practical from the K8 belt, I get some belt dust at 120A continuous, not sure how long it would last at say 200A. The 240 and 275A spec 40si are supposed to be rated for 125C continuous (as is the 28si) but it is hard to know where that is measured and what the Wakespeed or Balmar is measuring.

Both the Wakespeed 500 and the later Balmars derate on temp intelligently, hunting until they reach the limit you've set. No reason to derate the field with any of the other facilities (belt load, % field, etc). Just let it run to the temp limit.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2021, 05:41 AM   #15
Guru
 
catalinajack's Avatar
 
City: Edgewater, MD
Vessel Name: Catalina Jack
Vessel Model: Defever 44
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,924
How about you alternator belts? If you go to a higher output unit you will need a serpentine or double belt setup.
catalinajack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2021, 11:16 AM   #16
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
Dave.
Thank you for the wealth of information. What temp is the Delco 28si running at?
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2021, 11:58 AM   #17
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,049
^^ is that a Q for me?

My 28si is set for 107 deg C, and that is what it runs at as reported by the Balmar 614. The temp sensor is fastened to the case, forget exactly where. The Balmar default is 100, Delco spec is 125, measured .... somewhere. With the default setting after the temp stabilized I was getting about 105A to the batteries (everything else draws about and additional 20 while running). I adjusted the temp limit up, even a couple of degrees does something. With it set at 107, I am getting about 120A into the batteries. I don't know how far you could go, surely there is a curve of temp vs. longevity. With a Balmar 614 regulator, you will see the output start at 150 or 160, then derate over the first 10 minutes or so to 80 or 90, then inch back up to 120 as the temperature servo loop captures. Older Balmars just cut the field in half when the temp limit was hit.

When I start the engine cold at idle, I was getting a net -15A from the Balmar alternator. With the Delco 28si, about +90A. Many of the marine rewinds sacrifice low speed amperage for high speed. In my AT34, we run at 1200 - 1300 rpm typically so low speed performance is important. That also runs the alternator cooling fan at a lower speed. The QSB already has a 3:1 ratio on the pulleys which is pretty high, so 1200 is 3600 alternator shaft RPM. One issue with some of the marine rewinds is top speed - Balmar wanted a limit of 7000 shaft, this would be a problem with the QSB at 3000 engine rpm, 9000 alternator. The 28si is rated for 10,000 continuous.

One more thing: the 28si has a grounded frame, the QSB usually has a ground cable from the alternator output to the starter ground or other high current connection. You need to retain this, but will need to fasten to the fixing bolts as there is no ground terminal. I upsized this cable, clamp ammeter readings indicate about 1/2 the current is going through the cable, the other half through the engine block.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2021, 12:48 PM   #18
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
Great information once again DDW. The tech is here right now. The decision was made to run a dedicated neg and pos 2/0 lines from the alternator directly to the house batteries so there will be very little impedance.
Is this a concern if we end up going with the 28si?
Sorry DDW. Yes that was a Q for you.
Brent
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2021, 12:56 PM   #19
DDW
Guru
 
City: San Francisco
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 2,049
I put in 2/0 from alternator to the nearest high current bus, serviced by 3/0. There is a couple of tenths drop in the 3 or 4' of 2/0 when charging hard and I kind of wish I'd gone 3/0. They also get slightly warm after awhile. If you have the chance, especially with LFP which will run higher current longer, I'd go 3/0. I don't think 2/0 is dangerous, just not quite optimum. Your remote voltage sense will compensate, so you are just loosing a little efficiency.
DDW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2021, 01:33 PM   #20
Veteran Member
 
Phase3's Avatar
 
City: Millarville
Vessel Name: Phase III
Vessel Model: Mariner 35' Seville
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 54
Well it’s too late for 3/0. Tech states 2/0 will be fine as the run to the house bank is 10’.
Phase3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012