Generator Auto Start

[Arthurc]

How many of you have an auto start system on your generator?

I know I asked this question several years ago and have been thinking about it for a while, now and with the battery issues I am having I believe now is the time. I don't want to get into the debate if its safe, I don't really feel its any different than leaving the boat to go ashore with the generator running and actually the systems like Dynagen seem to have better controls/monitoring than the stock panel from my northern lights.

Generator is a 12kw northern lights so no J1939. From the limited information I have found it sounds like the Dynagen TG410 installed in the ER with a relay to interrupt load during start up and shutdown is the way to go. Then putting a TG100 in the Salon would give me the ability to monitor/operate it from outside the ER while also letting me use a Maretron N2K/J1939 to get the generator monitoring onto my network.

Thinking I would hold off on any transfer switch or solution that would allow it to also start up if the marina lost power and instead use it just when cruising. Just don't want to go tearing into the panel right now. This means I would only switch to autostart mode when using the boat and would have to actively switch my roto switch to Gen for it to work.

Would be interested in any thoughts or advice, I know James Hamilton has a super slick system and I found an article by MV Roam but that's about it.

Thanks
Arthur

 

[Island Cessna]

Ten+ years ago I had a need to have reliable 24/7 AC power on a 36’ boat. I have not followed the proliferation of automation in the ensuing years, and do not understand half of what you consider above, but thought there might be a “keep it simpler” approach, depending on your needs.

The load I was working with was small enough to be supplied by an inverter, but the house bank would not reliably supply enough amp hours.

I bought and tested a used Fischer Panda 12volt DC diesel generator with auto start. The auto start for the 12 volt source is much simpler than AC as the start and shutdown point is simply based on battery voltage, and there is no synchronization with other AC sources to worry about.

A couple of unexpected events cancelled the permanent install, but I have remained convinced the current inverter technology made the DC generator viable.

My biggest worry was Fischer Panda’s reliability.

Just food for thought.

 

[Comodave]

How many of you have an auto start system on your generator?

I don’t. In our situation we don’t need it. But could see where some others may need it.

 

[Arthurc]

I completely agree on a DC gen being the best solution technically, unfortunately there aren’t many options and I already have the NL Genset. When/if I ever need to swap the generator I’m hoping there are good DC gen options paired with LiPo batteries.

There were a bunch of cool little 150a dc gens on the market years ago but seems to never have taken off. They wouldn’t run heavy loads but would be perfect for keeping the batteries always in a good state.

 

[O C Diver]

I looked at this about 10 years ago. If I remember correctly, these guys would build this unit with a 220 amp 12 volt alternator (Leece Neville or Balmar with an external regulator).

NEXT-GEN - Marine Power Units

It seems to me that running a 12 KW generator to power a battery charger could long term be detrimental to the generator. It is my understanding that the above unit has more vibration and might be noisier, but if it only runs when you're not there.....

Ted

 

[twistedtree]

I think you are on the right track with your plan

There is an input signal that can be used on the Dynagen to start/stop, so you just need to sort out where that signal will come from. Most inverters can be set up to produce a signal to run a generator that will start it when the battery voltage gets too low for a certain amount of time. And then stop when the charger either reaches Absorb or Float.

And there is a “load” output from the Dynagen that can control a load relay to allow for gen warmup before loads are applied, and for clean disconnect and cool down before shutdown.

I have all of this working on my boat EXCEPT the actual start/stop triggering, so the infrastructure is there but I’m not using it yet.

 

[cafesport]

I put an autostart on a small genny specifically for life on the hook. I sized the exhaust muffler to allow for 3 failed start attempts. I chose a 6kw because as a battery charger it can easily spend an hour running at 25% load.? Have you spent enough time unplugged from the dock to get an idea of what kind of load the genny will be running just to charge batteries? There’s quite a difference between cruising and living on the hook. The charge acceptance rate will vary depending on how you use or abuse your battery bank.

 

[O C Diver]

While pondering the concept of an autonomous generator, my mind wondered down a side street. Would remote activation be better?

I have a Siren alarm system that monitors a number of things and also allows me to remotely switch on or off 4 electrical devices. Was wondering if observing low bank voltage (being notified by text or email) and initiating the generator was an advantage? Would starting the generator and initiating climate control be a benefit? The app for the Siren system offers the possibility of monitoring different temperatures which might include the generator system. Lots of interesting possibilities.

Ted

 

[OldDan1943]

I see a real need for auto start and shut off but, who's gonna check the oil and water level prior to starting or are you relying on auto shut down for low oil pressure and high temp exhaust?

I can also see a need for 2 smaller gens and the ability to bring the 2nd on line, sync the output, as needed.
When I discussed this possibility years a go, I was told the auto sync was unreliable.

 

[Arthurc]

I am 100 percent aware that I’ll be putting a very light load on my current generator but ultimately I don’t think it’s any worse than if I’m manually running it, if anything it would ensure I don’t accidentally leave it on when in float. If/when I need to replace the NL I think I’d do it differently with a small DC gen with auto start and a smaller AC NL for when I want to run air conditioning which is rare.
I love the idea of remote connectivity but doesn’t help with long summer trips where you loose coverage completely.

I’ll look at the 3012 inverter manual but I bet TwistedTree is right and I can use the output signal from that. I’m not sure my FA170 AIs can do it but it would be cool to only autostart when in “At Anchor” status, could possibly replicate that with a DCR100 and my Maretron monitoring.

The research continues…

 

[sunchaser]

Go for it AC. It can simplify battery and inverter management as you note.

My first experience with boat genset auto start was 40 years ago. At that time things like inverters and big house banks were only but a dream. In my case the genset and air conditioning were tied together for overnight on board comfort.

Today, auto start is common as mentioned by TT and cafe sport. Some view auto start setups as a good thing when at anchor with heavy loads from AC, heaters, charging and cooking.

I've a friend with a newer Nordhavn who has a quite seamless auto start setup. Big freezers, Sub Zeros and battery health benefit immensely.

 

[Wdeertz]

I installed a Magnum generator auto start a few months ago for when out cruising. I had recently installed a 600Ahr LFP battery bank and didn't want to risk the BMS cutting power if I couldn't get back to manually start the generator. In general use I disable the auto start but if leaving the boat while on anchor I switch the panel to the generator source and ensure the battery charger breaker is on. If the Magnum battery monitor gets to 20% SOC the generator auto starts and runs for 2 hours to buy me some additional time. The Magnum auto start is "dumb" in that it only has relays to preheat, turn on and turn off, there is no connection/monitoring of the engine parameters for overheat, low oil pressure, etc, I'm relying on the Northern Lights sensors to shut off in the engine in critical situations. While at the dock I have remote monitoring of AC input so if the power goes out I have a day to investigate before it becomes critical.

 

[Arthurc]

I’ve got a company working up a quote for the dynagen system. For now I won’t do a transfer switch, so I’ll need to manually switch to GEN on my selector switch for it to work. Just don’t want to rip into my panel right now.

Will let you know what I find out.
AC

 

[twistedtree]

I’ve got a company working up a quote for the dynagen system. For now I won’t do a transfer switch, so I’ll need to manually switch to GEN on my selector switch for it to work. Just don’t want to rip into my panel right now.

Will let you know what I find out.
AC

Keep in mind that you should not stop or start the generator with loads attached. It can damage the regulator. So some sort of switching is needed. If the only load you are powering is an inverter/charger, then it will typically do all that's needed by not connecting until the generator output is stable, and disconnecting before it gets badly out of spec. But if there are other loads they will need to be handled one way or another.

 

[Arthurc]

Yes, good call out. The Dynagen supports external relays and startup/cool off delays. Right now I’m thinking of using a timed relay as well since the dynagen doesn’t seem to offer a long warmup period, hoping they may have increased the supported time via firmware so will check that first. I found a good reference install on a blog for MV Roam.
Only other thing I’m considering is how to prevent it from auto starting when I’m on shore power as it won’t do any good with the selector knot on Gen, for this I’m thinking of using Maretron nav/state status and trigger a DCR to be closed when not in moored state, I also want to check on the FA170 AIS to see if it has any output for its Nav status as I always keep that up to date.
The Maretron solution might be the best as it would give me remote ability to enable/disable auto start which I will want even once I tackle the panel and install a transfer switch.

 

[bowball]

What’s the use case? I’m on shore power when I’m not on the boat, and when on the hook I’m on board. I have two gensets, 17kw and 9kw.

Just trying to determine if the need it satisfies is important to me. Or merely makes life easier in the mornings? For my case.

I had autostart for a remote ski cabin with not infrequent power outages and it worked great testing monthly, as when you lose power most people find their generators aren’t working!

 

[Arthurc]

Two short term use cases, one is summer cruising, especially with my batteries in a not so great state. I would love to not worry about when to get up to start the generator, or constantly looking at the battery monitor to turn it off when I hit float. I suspect I waste a bunch of fuel by running the gen with limited load and I’m sure I’ve drug the batteries below 50 percent a few times. Second use case is I don’t have 50a power at my summer place, we have 15a 110 and it worked ok by setting the input amps to 5 or 10 but I’d like to be able to just have the boat keep charged via generator when I have guests who also need power.
Longer term use case would be also being able to handle shore power outages but that requires a transfer switch and touching my messy panel which I don’t want to do until next winter, too many projects right now.

Last advantage is one less thing for my partner to worry about, if I go out for a long excursion or fishing outing it would be great for her not to have to worry about the batteries, and proper start up and shut down of the Gen.

 

[Arthurc]

Oh and last one, the dynagen will put my generator info on j1939 which I can then convert to n2k, right now my NL has zero gauges, it does auto shutdown when overheating (eelgrass proved that once) but no ability to actually monitor or set earlier alarms.

 

[twistedtree]

ABB makes some nice contactors that would likely work in conjunction with the "load" output signal from the Dynagen.


It might be a long shot, but perhaps there is an unused contact on your selector switch, or maybe one could be added to serve as a signal that the gen has been selected. You could use other controls in addition, but the selector position is fundamentally what you need to know if the generator is to be started. I think many of those selector switches are stacked switches and can be expanded, but I have never tried re-configuring one.

 

[Arthurc]

That’s a great point, I’ll poke around in there next time I’m on the boat. I’ve been wanting to avoid touching the panel as it’s in need of a complete overhaul.

One other thing I thought I would check is if the Dynagen can shutdown if no load is detected.
AC

 

[ksanders]

i have made a pretty good living for decades dealing with generator autostart systems pretty much every day.

Dynagen makes a decent one as do Deep Sea PLC out of england.

Murphy used to make some controllers but I haven't dealt with them for years.

Most autostart systems are actually full generator engine controllers. Their function is to not only start and stop the generator, they also monitor the generator and signal alarm states and or shutdown the generator in the event of a issue.

This is far more comprehensive than the simple shutdown systems present on a standard marine generator, and in the event of a failure a generator controller makes troubleshooting much easier as they will display the reason the generator shut down.

I have added engine controllers to several NL gensets and in my opinion the easiest method is to literally remove all of the wiring from the engine sensors, etc... and start fresh. That is a huge time saver. Expect to spend a full day from start to finish on your first one.

All that said, I do not have one on my boat at the present time. The reason why is not because they are not useful, I just never needed that advanced capability on my boat. I bought my NL generator new, and while the gauge package is not the best, it does work. I have thought about adding the auto start panel several times but have been hesitant because then I would have to add the transfer switch as well since I am mostly marina based.

I will say that if my boat was ever left on a mooring I would install a generator control panel immediately.

 

[Arthurc]

Thanks ksanders, that’s great info on the install, I didn’t get the gauge package and have regretted it, this seems like a good way to solve multiple things.

 

[twistedtree]

All that said, I do not have one on my boat at the present time. The reason why is not because they are not useful, I just never needed that advanced capability on my boat. I bought my NL generator new, and while the gauge package is not the best, it does work. I have thought about adding the auto start panel several times but have been hesitant because then I would have to add the transfer switch as well since I am mostly marina based.

I will say that if my boat was ever left on a mooring I would install a generator control panel immediately.

Ironically, it was when I was in Seward tied up across from your slip that the scales finally tipped for me in favor of auto start. We want to do a few day trip to Denali, but there is no power on the guest dock, and I knew my batteries wouldn't last the 3-4 days I planned to be away. Autostart would have been perfect, but instead I had to leave the generator running the whole time.

 

[ksanders]

Ironically, it was when I was in Seward tied up across from your slip that the scales finally tipped for me in favor of auto start. We want to do a few day trip to Denali, but there is no power on the guest dock, and I knew my batteries wouldn't last the 3-4 days I planned to be away. Autostart would have been perfect, but instead I had to leave the generator running the whole time.

Yes, a boat left alone is the perfect use case for having the generator set up for automatic operation based on battery SOC.

 

[Scottwb96]

The AGS was probably one of the first and BEST things I installed on my boat. Way too many times I have seen people toast a $2K+ house bank because they weren't paying attention or for whatever reason...

I am also in Seattle, so weather can also be an issue at the marina and losing power.

I am a big fan of "idiot-proofing" whenever I can and automating things. I like technology and gadgets so getting data/info/status on my MFD's as well as when I am away from the boat is a big thing for me...

My setup is a Magnum MS2812 with the Magnum AGS networked module. It has been bulletproof since I got it installed! I like the timer functions and "quiet time" settings. Pretty slick add-on, especially for the cost. I also installed an automatic transfer switch from Furrion 50a version. Works really well in my setup...

I am actually just about to switch from Magnum over to Victron so I can standardize a bunch of systems on the boat (multiple chargers). REALLY hope the Victron is as good (or better)...

I see that you're also in the Seattle area. If you want to check one out first hand and see how it works, I will be back on Monday (Heading to Poulsbo for the weekend). Let me know, I'd be happy to show it to you...

If you haven't already decided on your equipment yet, I am also selling my entire setup as a package deal.
1. MS2812
2. ME-ARC50
3. AGS (Auto-Gen-Start)
4. BMK (battery monitor w/ shunt)
5. Battery yemp sensor

Prices out at about $2,300 (pretax).

Looking at $1,500 obo.

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1272944319881576

 

[Illerom]

Auto gen start

For what it’s worth, I studied my operating manual until I almost wore out the pages. I have a northern lights 20 KW genny and one morning awoke to the alarm for the auto start. It didn’t auto start. Hence the research above. I decided not to engage the auto start and check battery levels every morning.
My preference is to manually start the generator and then I control when it is running. I can see the advantages of an auto start, but I’d rather monitor usage and fire it up when needed. Minimum voltage can be adjusted quite easily, but if you’re chewing excessive power overnight I would think you may have some power hungry service not behaving itself.
Good luck with your settings, it can be quite confusing.
Cheers.

 

[twistedtree]

For what it’s worth, I studied my operating manual until I almost wore out the pages. I have a northern lights 20 KW genny and one morning awoke to the alarm for the auto start. It didn’t auto start. Hence the research above. I decided not to engage the auto start and check battery levels every morning.
My preference is to manually start the generator and then I control when it is running. I can see the advantages of an auto start, but I’d rather monitor usage and fire it up when needed. Minimum voltage can be adjusted quite easily, but if you’re chewing excessive power overnight I would think you may have some power hungry service not behaving itself.
Good luck with your settings, it can be quite confusing.
Cheers.

What was the alarm? Perhaps we can all learn from that?

 

[Arthurc]

Yes the error would be interesting, one of the things that’s pulling me in the dynagen direction is the significantly more advanced engine controls even when used manually, today I’m pretty blind when running the NL and depended on it just shutting down if it needs to or me noticing a change in sound or water output.

 

[Arthurc]

I see that you're also in the Seattle area. If you want to check one out first hand and see how it works, I will be back on Monday (Heading to Poulsbo for the weekend). Let me know, I'd be happy to show it to you...

Hi Scottwb96,
Thanks much for the kind offer! I’ll be up north the next few weeks but will message you if I still haven’t pulled the trigger by the time I’m back, as far as equipment I’m leaning towards dynagen as it will give me much more insight into the overall system health even when used manually. The auto start project is taking a slight back seat as I made the mistake of ripping apart my 20ft whaler to inspect the fuel tank and am now up to my ankles in wet foam… good times.

Would also love to here about your Victron plans, that’s on my list post this years big summer trip.

AC

 

[Scottwb96]

Sounds good! Just ping me when/if you want to check it out. Good luck w/ the Whaler...

I have what equates to 5 "separate" battery systems and chargers. ALL w/ separate "brands" of chargers. In an effort to standardize as well as get more "data" from the systems, I am moving everything to Victron (Multiplus-ii, cerbo, GX-70 Touch, IP22's and an IP65 for the tender).
1. 24v - Bow thruster/windlass (IP22 - 24v 12/1)
2. 12v - Stern thruster/gen (IP22 - 12v 15/1)
3. 12v - Start battery (IP22 - 12v 15/1)
4. 12v - House bank (Multiplus-ii 12/3000/120)
5. 12v - Tender battery (IP65 12v 5/1)

All visible via Bluetooth and/or the VRM app...