Furuno and Navionics

[DDW]

Simrad's version of C-Map is building out a capability of collecting bathometry data collected and uploaded by users.

Navionics have been doing this for some time now, and the coverage is pretty good. Crowd sourced bathymetry is probably the future, now that the government is all but out of the business.

I don't know much about AquaMaps, but it appears to be just an app to display basic NOAA / govt maps. Heck, maybe that's what they all rely on, with just slicker interface / display options.

The govt is degrading GPS capabilities. Anyone have any insight on degrading charting?

Is the bathometry initiatives by Simrad and Furuno / TimeZero an effort to get ahead of govt chart degradation, and that dependency? Is Garmin really the one that needs to up their game too?

More questions than answers.

I think almost none of that is true. Aquamap is not just NOAA data any more than anyone other brand (though not particularly good in my opinion). The government isn't degrading GPS (that stopped back in the last century) and it would not matter if they did, as there are several functioning systems run by diverse governments.

Lots of bad deduction here. Navionics will continue to be avaible to non-Garmin MFDs.

And you know that how? Garmin has a long history of abandoning even their own products, let alone others. I would imagine they bought contractual obligations along with Navionics, once those are twilighted you are completely at their mercy.

And “NOAA Vector Charts & USACE Inland Charts” which are $500 but cover all of the areas in the continental US an east coaster is likely to travel in.

That seems like an outrageous price for what is otherwise free to download. It is not close to competitive for other companies doing the same thing (messaging formats to proprietary).

If anything this discussion would push me more towards generic hardware and open source software.

 

[ranger58sb]

That leaves Furuno with C-Map. C-Map is now owned by Navico (Simrad, etc) which is turn in the process of being bought by Brunswick. One choice for Furuno. Vulnerable.

What am I missing? I am not confident I am seeing this correctly. If I can see that, Furuno can too. Solutions ahead?

I have left a message with Furuno today. We will see what I get back. Bear in mind that MapMedia updates charts semi annually or annually. There are three choices for vector charts with Furuno/Mapmedia for the US market.

And “NOAA Vector Charts & USACE Inland Charts” which are $500 but cover all of the areas in the continental US an east coaster is likely to travel in. I also haven’t used these but will also look into it, as it covers the most area of all the vector chart options.

Two choices remain for Furuno: NOAA and C-Map.

Our NOAA raster and vector charts on our previous Furuno MFD were free, as were updates. I think that's still the case with the newer TZT MFDs...

NOAA charts always seemed to accurately depict what we could see with our Mark II* eyeballs.

We had C-Map charts on a Raymarine plotter two boats ago, seemed OK to me. Haven't used them since, though. I've read Explorer Charts, included in C-Map Charts, are "mandatory" for the Bahamas, if that matters.

-Chris

 

[FWT]

I think almost none of that is true. Aquamap is not just NOAA data any more than anyone other brand (though not particularly good in my opinion). The government isn't degrading GPS (that stopped back in the last century) and it would not matter if they did, as there are several functioning systems run by diverse governments.

.

You are half right and half wrong.

True, for a time GPS for civilian use was degraded but Clinton reversed that and returned it to non-degraded.

False, that it isn't being degraded now. The cellphone 5G networks use a bandwidth spectrum very close to the GPS spectrum. Complaints were met with an official response that was sort of "tough luck." Notices were sent out by the govt and reported in various marine press sources, that interference could cause GPS signals to be scrambled. Below is a link to just one.

Since 5G is only now being turned on in a lot of places, there isn't much to go on. Yet. But you probably saw some uproar in the press in the past few weeks that signal interference affects airliners and airports. There was some call by airlines to cease operations in certain airports. I didn't catch the end of that saga, but am thinking a temporary halt to turning on 5G near the airports of greatest concern to give everyone a chance to talk this through.

https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler-news/boatus-sounds-the-alarm-about-potential-gps-fiasco

 

[bowball]

Two choices remain for Furuno: NOAA and C-Map.

Our NOAA raster and vector charts on our previous Furuno MFD were free, as were updates. I think that's still the case with the newer TZT MFDs...

NOAA charts always seemed to accurately depict what we could see with our Mark II* eyeballs.


-Chris

This is what’s been recommended over Navionics for Furuno: CMap for Canada and NOAA for west coast US. Even before Garmin buying Navionics.

 

[danderer]

Furuno NOAA charts are free for their plotters, not $500.

Charts

 

[danderer]

Keep in mind that with Garmin you have no choice of charts at all. It’s just Garmins charts. Yes, they now incorporate Navionics data which surely improves on what they had before, but you are still 100% captive to what Garmin produces.

That does seem to be overlooked in this discussion.

 

[bowball]

With an expensive electronics decision ahead of me with a new build of a H38, this news has been eating at me.

The #1 function of a MFD / chartplotter is to display charts. Navionics, now owned by Garmin, is either pushing out Furuno or Furuno chooses to not go along. To buyers / users it doesn't matter which if it won't be there.

That leaves Furuno with C-Map. C-Map is now owned by Navico (Simrad, etc) which is turn in the process of being bought by Brunswick. One choice for Furuno. Vulnerable.

Simrad's version of C-Map is building out a capability of collecting bathometry data collected and uploaded by users. The data collection on a route pass is somewhat narrow, and when I look at popular routes on the Chesapeake the bathometry area collected so far is pretty limited. This data isn't available on the C-Map version available to Furuno users. So Navico / Simrad are already creating something of a walled garden of their own inside of C-Map.

Furuno users have what appears to be a functionally superior bathometry option with a MUCH wider field of data collection per pass. However, this requires a subscription to TimeZero and some additional hardware. The cost of that, if I understand the specs, is amazingly high and equals or exceeds the cost of the MFD itself. Nifty capability, but not cost-effective for many.

I have come to like the Furuno option for a host of reasons, but what is really bugging me is their vulnerability to having access to a good chart package.

Bottom line is that confidence in chart data availability in the future narrows the field to Garmin and Simrad, much as I had come over more to the Furuno side.

What am I missing? I am not confident I am seeing this correctly. If I can see that, Furuno can too. Solutions ahead?

The Fleming center that outfits new Flemings on the West Coast said they hadn’t installed Navionics charts on Furuno on a new Fleming for over 5 years, as it wasn’t the preferred chart. Cmap for Canada, NOAA for the US. And it wasn’t because a Fleming owner wanted to save a few hundred dollars! Lol.

Consequently, I’d say this is a non issue for FURUNO MFDs.

 

[twistedtree]

The Fleming center that outfits new Flemings on the West Coast said they hadn’t installed Navionics charts in Furuno on a new Fleming for over 5 years, as it wasn’t the preferred chart. Cmap for Canada, NOAA for the US.

Consequently, I’d say this is a non issue for Furuno b

It's an issue for Mexico. Having no chart at all is better than C-map in Mexico.

 

[bowball]

It's an issue for Mexico. Having no chart at all is better than C-map in Mexico.

Seems extreme, but I understand your point!

Is that common for all charts there? I’ve heard some say they had 1/4 to 1/2 mile navigation errors on Navionics in Mexico. .

 

[Retriever]

It's an issue for Mexico. Having no chart at all is better than C-map in Mexico.

Yes, a big issue in Mexico. Navionics is the best cartography available in Mexico. I'm glad I already have it on my Furuno gear.

In the US I prefer NOAA raster or vector charts. In Canada, CHS charts. US or Canada, vector or raster, I've found the official government charts are more accurate and less error-prone than Navionics or C-Map. Navionics is riddled with misspellings, incorrect soundings, and phantom rocks in the PNW.

 

[DDW]

You are half right and half wrong.

True, for a time GPS for civilian use was degraded but Clinton reversed that and returned it to non-degraded.

False, that it isn't being degraded now. The cellphone 5G networks use a bandwidth spectrum very close to the GPS spectrum. Complaints were met with an official response that was sort of "tough luck." Notices were sent out by the govt and reported in various marine press sources, that interference could cause GPS signals to be scrambled. Below is a link to just one.

Well, I'm 100% right. The government isn't degrading GPS. 5G cellular might interfere a little bit, that is private enterprise, not government. And that is speculation, not experience. 5G is turned on and operational in my area, I've seen no issues with GPS. 5G has been widely deployed in Europe for over a year, with no GPS issues. The problems the airlines are complaining about are specific to one piece of equipment (an altimeter) mainly deployed on one airliner (the B787). The Passagemaker article refers to a limited deployment industrial 5G network that might affect older GPS receivers. Hardly the sky falling. I'm not losing sleep over this.

 

[FWT]

Well, I'm 100% right. The government isn't degrading GPS. 5G cellular might interfere a little bit, that is private enterprise, not government. And that is speculation, not experience. 5G is turned on and operational in my area, I've seen no issues with GPS. 5G has been widely deployed in Europe for over a year, with no GPS issues. The problems the airlines are complaining about are specific to one piece of equipment (an altimeter) mainly deployed on one airliner (the B787). The Passagemaker article refers to a limited deployment industrial 5G network that might affect older GPS receivers. Hardly the sky falling. I'm not losing sleep over this.

No problem. I'll just ignore the Boat US warning on the topic.

 

[Helmsman]

Furuno NOAA charts are free for their plotters, not $500.

Charts

Here is an image of the charge of $500 for the chart I mentioned. It may be because it covers almost all of the US, while most of the NOAA charts are smaller pieces of the same pie. That is just a guess. Or perhaps, I am just not sure how the purchase process works within the plotter. I hope it is $0.

 

[Helmsman]

Two choices remain for Furuno: NOAA and C-Map.

Our NOAA raster and vector charts on our previous Furuno MFD were free, as were updates. I think that's still the case with the newer TZT MFDs...

NOAA charts always seemed to accurately depict what we could see with our Mark II* eyeballs.

We had C-Map charts on a Raymarine plotter two boats ago, seemed OK to me. Haven't used them since, though. I've read Explorer Charts, included in C-Map Charts, are "mandatory" for the Bahamas, if that matters.

-Chris

Chris, I looked at the C Map chart for the portion of the Tennessee River I am on. The map lacks a lot of the detail that the Navionics chart has, with a depth of 15 feet and 5 feet and nothing in between. Might be better on a plotter, or perhaps with the. NOAA vector charts. Navionics is a pretty popular choice in this area, probably for that reason. I looked at Mobile Bay and they had a lot more detail.

 

[FWT]

Chris, I looked at the C Map chart for the portion of the Tennessee River I am on. The map lacks a lot of the detail that the Navionics chart has, with a depth of 15 feet and 5 feet and nothing in between. Might be better on a plotter, or perhaps with the. NOAA vector charts. Navionics is a pretty popular choice in this area, probably for that reason. I looked at Mobile Bay and they had a lot more detail.

I am addressing this to you, but others might be trying to follow along.

C-Map has different capabilities for different plotter brands. Scroll down half way.

https://www.c-map.com/all-charts/

Furuno only has 4D charts. Simrad can use the Reveal charts.

Here you can compare.

https://www.c-map.com/chartexplorer/

Zoom into your area. Toggle between a) 4D, b) Discover and Reveal, and then c) when in Reveal, click on Shaded Relief.

I think you will find there is a huge difference between the 4D in Furuno, vs the Reveal - Shaded Relief in Simrad. I don't know where you are, but I see a lot of detail in Tennessee.

People looking at C-Map can easily be looking at different things and seeing different capabilities.

These links are fresh for me, because after dealing with about 14 inches of snow today and 21 degrees, I am recovering by messing with this stuff and thinking more about warm weather boating.

 

[djones44]

What am I missing? I am not confident I am seeing this correctly. If I can see that, Furuno can too. Solutions ahead?

I'm going Furuno for what they do with sounders, including radar on iPad. I have my laptop on board for Navionics, and can display that on a 27" monitor.

A poor man's access to it all, and a modest expansion of my bridge Furuno sounder.

 

[Helmsman]

I am addressing this to you, but others might be trying to follow along.

C-Map has different capabilities for different plotter brands. Scroll down half way.

https://www.c-map.com/all-charts/

Furuno only has 4D charts. Simrad can use the Reveal charts.

Here you can compare.

https://www.c-map.com/chartexplorer/

Zoom into your area. Toggle between a) 4D, b) Discover and Reveal, and then c) when in Reveal, click on Shaded Relief.

I think you will find there is a huge difference between the 4D in Furuno, vs the Reveal - Shaded Relief in Simrad. I don't know where you are, but I see a lot of detail in Tennessee.

People looking at C-Map can easily be looking at different things and seeing different capabilities.

These links are fresh for me, because after dealing with about 14 inches of snow today and 21 degrees, I am recovering by messing with this stuff and thinking more about warm weather boating.

Thanks. I looked at my home port and you are right, The reveal shaded Relief is actually pretty good. The 4d not so much.

 

[BandB]

Some things remain the same even with change. Garmin wants it all under their umbrella and ultimately has no desire to share. They want you to buy Garmin, all Garmin, and nothing but Garmin. Nothing wrong with doing that. They have a good product.

Furuno has always shared with others and will continue to do so where feasible. They integrate with TimeZero and with Flir. In some cases, they may not have the charts Garmin has. We've found that mainly on inland lakes and rivers. They remain the commercial leader. Whether they'll make moves themselves to counter the aggressive moves by their competition, I don't know. In the past, they have not.

 

[ranger58sb]

Here is an image of the charge of $500 for the chart I mentioned. It may be because it covers almost all of the US, while most of the NOAA charts are smaller pieces of the same pie. That is just a guess. Or perhaps, I am just not sure how the purchase process works within the plotter. I hope it is $0.

The NOAA charts (and some of the 3D and photo charts) came pre-installed when we got our MFD. Then for NOAA updates, I always just went here, and selected the "Charts for NavNet etc etc etc..." option:

https://furunousa.com/en/products/gps_and_chart_plotters

No charge downloads (for the free charts).

Here on the east coast, I always kept USR-001, 002, and 003 current. Never looked at your area within the 003 charts, though, and never installed 004... so dunno if they might extend to where you are.

Edit: FWIW, I just had a look at the Chattanooga portion of the Tennessee River on AquaMap. I haven't any local knowledge to compare that with, but it looks like credible charting to me. I mention that because we use AQ along the ICW specifically because they can optionally incorporate any recent USACE survey data... and we've found that useful for areas out here (especially near inlets) known for shoaling.

-Chris

 

[Helmsman]

The NOAA charts (and some of the 3D and photo charts) came pre-installed when we got our MFD. Then for NOAA updates, I always just went here, and selected the "Charts for NavNet etc etc etc..." option:

https://furunousa.com/en/products/gps_and_chart_plotters

No charge downloads (for the free charts).

Here on the east coast, I always kept USR-001, 002, and 003 current. Never looked at your area within the 003 charts, though, and never installed 004... so dunno if they might extend to where you are.

Edit: FWIW, I just had a look at the Chattanooga portion of the Tennessee River on AquaMap. I haven't any local knowledge to compare that with, but it looks like credible charting to me. I mention that because we use AQ along the ICW specifically because they can optionally incorporate any recent USACE survey data... and we've found that useful for areas out here (especially near inlets) known for shoaling.

-Chris

Thanks Chris. My go to has been Navionics. I can still use that on phone and tablet. Here is a comparison of Navionics, and CMap in 4d and Discover and Reveal. That is the loss of detail I brought up. AquaMap has a lot of supporters on other forums. I don’t think that it is supported through Furuno’s MapMedia. I could use it on the tablets, but while underway prefer to use my MFD’s, particularly top side. I like to travel into sloughs, and skinny areas as I explore. With what these shows that would much be tougher. I think when I get through the river system to the coast, the maps improve and are very useable. I am going to try to get some map renditions from Furuno today. We will see what they provide.

 

[catalinajack]

Navionics have been doing this for some time now, and the coverage is pretty good. Crowd sourced bathymetry is probably the future, now that the government is all but out of the business.





I think almost none of that is true. Aquamap is not just NOAA data any more than anyone other brand (though not particularly good in my opinion). The government isn't degrading GPS (that stopped back in the last century) and it would not matter if they did, as there are several functioning systems run by diverse governments.





And you know that how? Garmin has a long history of abandoning even their own products, let alone others. I would imagine they bought contractual obligations along with Navionics, once those are twilighted you are completely at their mercy.





That seems like an outrageous price for what is otherwise free to download. It is not close to competitive for other companies doing the same thing (messaging formats to proprietary).



If anything this discussion would push me more towards generic hardware and open source software.

I know that how? Because just a few days ago I received an email from Navionics offering the same charting software for my Simrad MFD just the same as always. No change from past practice. There has been tons of unfounded speculation based on preconceived notions about what Garmin is going to do. My annual all-continental U.S. plus Bahamas subscription can be renewed for $149. And, in fact, Garmin is incorporating Navionics into their Garmin only MFDs. So, you see, Garmin is actually making their MFDs more attractive by jettisoning their twice-a-year updated proprietary charting software. Seems to me to be a net positive especially for Garmin hardware fans.

 

[catalinajack]

You are half right and half wrong.



True, for a time GPS for civilian use was degraded but Clinton reversed that and returned it to non-degraded.



False, that it isn't being degraded now. The cellphone 5G networks use a bandwidth spectrum very close to the GPS spectrum. Complaints were met with an official response that was sort of "tough luck." Notices were sent out by the govt and reported in various marine press sources, that interference could cause GPS signals to be scrambled. Below is a link to just one.



Since 5G is only now being turned on in a lot of places, there isn't much to go on. Yet. But you probably saw some uproar in the press in the past few weeks that signal interference affects airliners and airports. There was some call by airlines to cease operations in certain airports. I didn't catch the end of that saga, but am thinking a temporary halt to turning on 5G near the airports of greatest concern to give everyone a chance to talk this through.



https://www.passagemaker.com/trawler-news/boatus-sounds-the-alarm-about-potential-gps-fiasco

Count me a skeptic. I see lots of speculation in this article and no science references to support these conclusions, just a lot of fear-mongering. Remember when (and still) the prohibtion on using cell phones aboard aircraft, that we were all going to crash? How is it then, that airlines offer on board wifi for a fee? I guess their wifi is different than ours.

 

[ranger58sb]

Thanks Chris. My go to has been Navionics. I can still use that on phone and tablet. Here is a comparison of Navionics, and CMap in 4d and Discover and Reveal. That is the loss of detail I brought up. AquaMap has a lot of supporters on other forums. I don’t think that it is supported through Furuno’s MapMedia. I could use it on the tablets, but while underway prefer to use my MFD’s, particularly top side.

Well, I mentioned AQ only 'cause I happened to have had a look. What I see in AQ -- at least in that one area I pulled out of a hat -- looks closer to your C-Map examples, though... unless I didn't zoom in enough or some such.

Correct, AQ is a tablet/phone thing. Cheap, actually, for what that's worth.

-Chris

 

[catalinajack]

That does seem to be overlooked in this discussion.

But,Twisted, with the incorporation of Navionics, isn't the net that what will be seen on the Garmin screen will be the same as on non-Garmin MFDs? Perhaps the annual subscription price will be more but we (I) don't know that. I see this as a positive for Garmin owners, that is, bei g stuck with charts that are updated only twice each year. I would never have considered a Garmin suite before this change.

 

[catalinajack]

Some things remain the same even with change. Garmin wants it all under their umbrella and ultimately has no desire to share. They want you to buy Garmin, all Garmin, and nothing but Garmin. Nothing wrong with doing that. They have a good product.



Furuno has always shared with others and will continue to do so where feasible. They integrate with TimeZero and with Flir. In some cases, they may not have the charts Garmin has. We've found that mainly on inland lakes and rivers. They remain the commercial leader. Whether they'll make moves themselves to counter the aggressive moves by their competition, I don't know. In the past, they have not.

See m other posts. You are simply mistaken. In fact, Garmin is selling Navionics software for use on non-Garmin MFDs.

 

[Helmsman]

Well, I mentioned AQ only 'cause I happened to have had a look. What I see in AQ -- at least in that one area I pulled out of a hat -- looks closer to your C-Map examples, though... unless I didn't zoom in enough or some such.

Correct, AQ is a tablet/phone thing. Cheap, actually, for what that's worth.

-Chris

I think my Navionics tablet/phone subscription runs around $120 a year. It covers the east coast, gulf coast and the rivers. Also covers Canada, I think. Based upon what you see in Aquamaps, I suppose the only viable option for the Tennessee River may be Navionics. Will have to wait to see what Furuno says when they get back with me.

 

[Helmsman]

See m other posts. You are simply mistaken. In fact, Garmin is selling Navionics software for use on non-Garmin MFDs.

Catalina, you are right, for Simrad, and I suppose for Raymarine. They are discontinuing their relationship with MapMedia and Furuno on 3/25. I would imagine that the others may or may not be too far behind. The reason I think that is the continuing increase in the sophistication of chart plotters, and the interactions with peripherals. If we want more interaction, then we will probably see more and more separation between what works with with one vendor versus another.

I don’t assign a nefarious motive to Garmin because I don’t have facts for that. Their past track record has been to aggressively move their patrons to all Garmin equipment. That is their right to do so in a free market. All vendors want that. However, the reason this thread was started was due to the loss of Navionics specific to Furuno equipment, and at least for my case, no apparent viable replacement from MapMedia for the inland rivers.

I think a great marketing opportunity exists for the PC market, though they probably don’t perceive it as a large market. They would have to improve their screens for readability in sunlight, and also wet environments. But the additional “open” capability would be intriguing.

 

[BandB]

See m other posts. You are simply mistaken. In fact, Garmin is selling Navionics software for use on non-Garmin MFDs.

They are today, but they've reigned in outside sales and sharing and may continue to do so. As to Garmin as primary system, it is then tied to all Garmin products. No plotters linking to other vendors products. Time will tell.

 

[Helmsman]

Ok. Here is the information I received from Nobeltec Time Zero. The tech there was very helpful.

The relationship with Navionics will cease on 3/25/2022. That marks the end of a five year contract with TimeZero that was not renewed by Navionics.

If you have a Furuno chart plotter, you will be able to unlock the Navionics maps on the Furuno CP until 3/24/2022. After that, you will not be able to. If, as in my case, the MFD is uninstalled, knowing the system ID of the master chart plotter, will allow you to purchase the charts from a dealer prior to 3/24 and you will still be able to unlock when you install the CP. Time Zero will send me screen shots of selected locations from their suite of charts to compare to other sources.

That is different from the information I received the other day from Furuno. I was told then that I would be able to unlock the Navionics after installation in April since I had purchased the Furuno equipment earlier and have received it. That is, at least the way I understood what I got from the Furuno rep. I was also urged to confirm with TimeZero. Furuno will send me screen shots of all the charts for my area of the river.

But, the most important message was that TimeZero is coming out with their own product to compete with Navionics. They expect the new charts to be out later this year. Those charts will use crowd sourcing capability so I assume that over time there will be no loss of capability. That may be particularly true with all of the fishermen out there today using Furuno equipment (who want to transmit their data back ) Again, 3/24 and 3/25 is a key date.

So, I am ok with where this stands, will use the Navionics charts in Furuno for the rivers, and switch to Furuno's new map product when it arrives.

 

[angus99]

Ok. Here is the information I received from Nobeltec Time Zero. The tech there was very helpful.

The relationship with Navionics will cease on 3/25/2022. That marks the end of a five year contract with TimeZero that was not renewed by Navionics.

If you have a Furuno chart plotter, you will be able to unlock the Navionics maps on the Furuno CP until 3/24/2022. After that, you will not be able to. If, as in my case, the MFD is uninstalled, knowing the system ID of the master chart plotter, will allow you to purchase the charts from a dealer prior to 3/24 and you will still be able to unlock when you install the CP. Time Zero will send me screen shots of selected locations from their suite of charts to compare to other sources.

That is different from the information I received the other day from Furuno. I was told then that I would be able to unlock the Navionics after installation in April since I had purchased the Furuno equipment earlier and have received it. That is, at least the way I understood what I got from the Furuno rep. I was also urged to confirm with TimeZero. Furuno will send me screen shots of all the charts for my area of the river.

But, the most important message was that TimeZero is coming out with their own product to compete with Navionics. They expect the new charts to be out later this year. Those charts will use crowd sourcing capability so I assume that over time there will be no loss of capability. That may be particularly true with all of the fishermen out there today using Furuno equipment (who want to transmit their data back ) Again, 3/24 and 3/25 is a key date.

So, I am ok with where this stands, will use the Navionics charts in Furuno, and switch to Furuno's new map product when it arrives.

Good info, thanks. I have not been a Garmin fan since they stopped supporting an MFD I’d just purchased that had only been on the market a couple of years. C-Map on our TZTouch MFDs is inadequate for the lakes and rivers we’re currently on. So, I’m looking forward to what Furuno comes out with.