Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 09-11-2021, 08:20 AM   #61
Guru
 
wkearney99's Avatar
 
City: Bethesda, MD
Vessel Name: Solstice
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 47 Eastbay FB
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowball View Post
I’m currently going to have the furuno DRS6ANXT/4 Radar installed with the 48” array. I wonder if it’s worth the extra $1,000 to get the 100 watt version. I do t need the distance but better resolution of small objects?
I think better small target resolution comes as a result of the wider array, not necessarily the power.
__________________
-- Bill Kearney
2005 Eastbay 47 FB - Solstice, w/Highfield CL360 tender
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 01:25 PM   #62
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippocampus View Post
My biggest problem with Garmin remains their business model. You enter garmin world. Everything needs to be inside that world. This is particularly troublesome as regards charts and ancillaries.
There is a decided difference in that regard vs. Furuno that links with everyone gladly and proudly. However, I think there's some strength in that too as vs. Furuno their average user is less experienced. Part of it comes back to market. Furuno saying "we trust you to use professionals to interface and hook things up correctly" and Garmin saying "we can only protect you if you do it 100% our way."

The takeover of Active Captain was typical Garmin with no great desire to make it workable with other products. Well, I never interfaced it anyway, only used as a freestanding travel tool so really didn't care.

We're still big fans of Furuno and when we bought a boat with Garmin pictured ourselves replacing it after one quick season, but found ourselves with no desire to do so. So, not our first choice, but we didn't dislike it. Still found their charts to be incredible for inland lakes and rivers, perhaps due to their large volume of freshwater fishermen.

Now Garmin introducing products to boating that come from their auto product development. One thing I am happy about is the number of competitive brands we do have as I think that leads to continued improvement and without it we'd not see the continued upgrades in products.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 01:32 PM   #63
Guru
 
wkearney99's Avatar
 
City: Bethesda, MD
Vessel Name: Solstice
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 47 Eastbay FB
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,164
I agree with the point I think you're making, but I think you attribute greater trust to Garmin than experience would dictate. That's a marketing lie. Vendors try that crap all the time. Worse, the salesman trot it out as an easy way to make a larger sale.

There are limited places where you DO need vendor compatibility. Radar being the big one. Second being VHF integration for DSC calling. Third there's specific configuring or firmware updating for devices. Though Maretron has made good strides in helping on this front.

What's happened to Active Captain is a shame, Garmin's mapping consolidation though, is worse.
__________________
-- Bill Kearney
2005 Eastbay 47 FB - Solstice, w/Highfield CL360 tender
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 03:02 PM   #64
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post

What's happened to Active Captain is a shame, Garmin's mapping consolidation though, is worse.
We use AC in the same way we always did and always in spite of owner rather than because of.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 03:24 PM   #65
Guru
 
wkearney99's Avatar
 
City: Bethesda, MD
Vessel Name: Solstice
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 47 Eastbay FB
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,164
From the limited demos I've tried on Garmin units and on the Navionics website I'm not trusting their waypoint selections for automatic routing any time soon.

They don't seem to take anything other than depth/distance into consideration. Some of the routing I've seen them choose would nearly run me through a surf line or through known tricky current sections. Sure, there IS enough depth to have me skirt that close, but given sea conditions there's no way in Hell I'd run that close.

I'd hope others would be smart enough to realize this and not do that... but then have we MET people lately?

Where I do make use of auto routing is making guestimates on travel time.

As in, hmm, we have a good weather window and free time... how long would it take to get from point A to B? At hull speed, on plane or money-is-no-object WOT? Handy to have that as an option for playing what-if.

But not when it comes to basing my trust on the autopilot to get me there safely. At least not without a 'section by section' review of the course it has chosen. And if I'm doing that I might as well just plot the course on my own anyway.
__________________
-- Bill Kearney
2005 Eastbay 47 FB - Solstice, w/Highfield CL360 tender
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 05:18 PM   #66
FWT
Guru
 
City: Centreville MD
Vessel Name: Resilient
Vessel Model: Helmsman Trawlers 38E
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 1,510
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
But not when it comes to basing my trust on the autopilot to get me there safely. At least not without a 'section by section' review of the course it has chosen. And if I'm doing that I might as well just plot the course on my own anyway.
The OP is interested in Garmin vs Furuno. With a new boat on order I'm shopping. I wasn't going to go there and get this off track, but this autopilot / auto-route discussion kinda takes it there.

I agree with what pretty much everyone agrees on, and that is all of the top brands are pretty good these days. But you still have to choose one, and find a point(s) of differentiation. One of them is auto-routing.

Pretty much everyone is going to get autopilot these days, even if only to use it to hold a straight line course to a compass heading for a time. So if you are going to have one why eliminate the option of auto-route completely? I don't get that part. Preserve the option. (Unless your favorite brand doesn't offer it, but does have some other killer feature important to you.)

So Furuno doesn't offer it. Garmin and Simrad do. Just playing with demos and watching videos there are a couple of important issues that differ.

First, the Garmin auto-route only works with a Garmin autopilot controller at the rudder. Because Garmin autoroute uses some proprietary smoothing of the turn radius that somehow only works with their own MFD hardware attached to their own rudder control unit. This may not be an issue for someone, but might, so I mention it.

Second, Garmin can only plot a course from where the boat now sits, to the end point you select. You cannot, for example, plot a course that begins once you exit an inlet, or some crowded chaotic stretch near your marina. You cannot plot in advance a multiple day trip and save day 1, day2, and day 3 as different saved trips. You cannot then use it to calculate a trip if you are wondering how long between two points that are nowhere near you. With Simrad you can. You select the course beginning point, and end point.

Third, I agree a course plotted in autoroute should not be followed blindly along inland waterways. So making adjustments to the autoroute before hitting go has to be user friendly. From what I can see, both are reasonable for this need, but I give the edge to Simrad.

FYI the Simrad autoroute feature only works with Navionics charts downloaded into Simrad. I have no idea whether one can use the Bob423 tracks if that interests anyone, since as I recall his are done in Aquamaps or something.

There is still one aspect I do not have a good answer for with either brand. With both there is a helm station control pad in addition to having all controls within the MFD. That seems to me to be an unnecessary redundancy. It takes up valuable space at the helm station for the extra pad, and the pad isn't cheap. However the pads do have one very valuable aspect: a big red button to shut off autopilot when you want it off, and want it off right now. With the MFD's so programable these days I am only guessing one can program your display screen to leave up the big red off button. Surprisingly, I cannot confirm that yes or no including in discussion with one Simrad rep in a booth.

In a related manner, if one temporarily chooses to veer off from a programed course (to avoid traffic, crab pots, etc), HOW does it return you to the course? There are options buried deep in the program options trees. Return the boat to the point of departure from the course? The straightest route back to the course line? The straightest route to the next waypoint? What you might want to do can differ greatly depending on circumstances and being able to have that up on the MFD in a box would be great. I don't know what's possible. Importantly, think through what this means when you grasp the point above that the course plot begins at your marina slip, if you are programming it before departure, as most would do.

Last, there are a max number of waypoints in a course. This won't be an issue tooling down the Chesapeake with maybe a half dozen or so waypoints on the trip. Down the twists of the ICW, it might be. I have yet to grasp whether the limitations are meaningful, for either brand.

If anyone has info that says I'm wrong about any of these feature differences, believe me I'm all ears and would appreciate being set straight.

My second reason for Simrad is forward looking sonar, but that's a different topic.
FWT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 05:31 PM   #67
Guru
 
City: West coast
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 1,137
This has been very interesting and I’m the OP.

I just submitted a big deposit to order a full Furuno suite, especially since I loved their radar. (I’m sure I could still change to Garmin)

The autoroute issue is the only one that gave me pause on Furuno vs Garmin. I did see some YouTube’s with some illogical if not ridiculous plotting though so I started weighing that feature less. The other brands I didn’t really consider due to support here from my maintenance facility.

It’s not a permanent decision as I’m probably ordering a new (same brand slightly bigger) boat shortly, but it’s delivery will be several years out. At that point I’ll revisit this all!

This is what I have on the list, for two helm stations

TZT19F (x2)
DRS6ANXT/4 Radar
FA50 Class B AIS Transceiver
NAVPILOT 711C Autopilot
FI-70 Displays (4 or 5?)
TZT16F
GP330B GPS Receiver
SCX20 Sat compass
DST800L Smartducer
bowball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 06:07 PM   #68
Guru
 
Blissboat's Avatar
 
City: Jacksonville Beach, FL
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 1,252
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowball View Post
This is what I have on the list, for two helm stations

TZT19F (x2)
DRS6ANXT/4 Radar
FA50 Class B AIS Transceiver
NAVPILOT 711C Autopilot
FI-70 Displays (4 or 5?)
TZT16F
GP330B GPS Receiver
SCX20 Sat compass
DST800L Smartducer
That's a mighty tasty-looking menu, Bowball!
__________________
"Less judgment than wit is more sail than ballast. Yet it must be confessed that wit give an edge to sense, and recommends it extremely." ~ William Penn
Blissboat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 07:08 PM   #69
Guru
 
BandB's Avatar
 
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
I would suggest to all of you to look closely at TimeZero.

https://mytimezero.com/

If you're a Furuno fan then it makes a great front end to Furuno. They even offer a TimeZero-Furuno Ecosystem Cloud. They offer a lot of options in either their Professional or their Navigator system.

Since routing is such an issue, here are some of their optional features:

Routing according to wind, waves and currents
Isochrones with SailSet overlay
Routing calculation automatically avoiding the coastline and shallow water (possibility to set the depth limit)
Dual Route calculation sail/motor (depending on the wind and theorical speed limit)
Expected wind conditions display along the track
Alternate routing
Routing Detail (List)
Routing and Weather Animation
Laylines (requires wind sensor)
Polar workspace : to display and modify Wind and SailSet Polar files
Polar % modification
Adjusting Weather files
Routing variability calculation and display


We have TimeZero for two purposes. Really the first is to have a backup system on board. However, the other is to be able to do things away from the other hardware. We're on a trip right now on a boat we first accessed in Mid May. All out main hardware is Furuno. Then we have the TimeZero as well. As a new purchase, all the latest on both, definitely more on the Furuno than most would need as we are ECDIS. However, we've done all our initial planning on TimeZero. We've used their weather functionality extensively. We've used the alternate routing where choosing to dodge rougher seas. In reality the Furuno has become the backup or less used.

We got started with TimeZero when we purchased a boat in 2014 that had Transas and Maxsea in 2014. Maxsea evolved into TimeZero.

Now I don't fault the selection of any of the other systems, just encourage taking a look at TimeZero.

To Bowball, easy to add it to your selection if you choose. Get a demo and decide.

A few other comparisons. These are only equipment I've used extensively.

Radar I've only used Furuno and Garmin. Garmin was always adequate and I've been told Raymarine and Simrad comparable. However, still Furuno is superior.

Autopilot, I've used Simrad, Garmin and Furuno. I'd rate Simrad and Furuno superior but Garmin good. Main preference for Furuno and Simrad is they don't care who you hook up to for the rest of your equipment.

Plotter and Charts. I've used Transas, Furuno, TimeZero, and Garmin. As I've said before for Coastal waters and Inland, Garmin has some excellent charting and Inland I'd rate them tops. They are also excellent for fishing. Transas is the tops perhaps for Commercial but I think Furuno has caught them mostly. However, I love the TimeZero-Furuno combination. I also love that Furuno and TimeZero use C-Map and Navionics and NOAA charts. As others have said, they don't go with only proprietary.

Sonar and depth sounders. All are good but Garmin's sonar is limited compared to Furuno. Echopilot was a leader but I think they've been caught and surpassed now by others. I still think Farsounder might be slightly superior.

Night vision. I don't think you can top FLIR, although our Garmin was quite decent. Furuno uses FLIR even though it's a competitor's product.

Again, no bad choices. Just do what works for you.

Now to bed as it's 2:00 AM.
BandB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 07:57 PM   #70
FWT
Guru
 
City: Centreville MD
Vessel Name: Resilient
Vessel Model: Helmsman Trawlers 38E
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 1,510
B&B:

You have mentioned that app several times.

So I just downloaded it.

After a few minutes of playing with it, I have to say its pretty slick on my iphone. Finding the tide and current info overlays took a few minutes but I used it to check out some problematic spots using the time scroll feature. I looked at a canal spot (Cape Cod) to see current 4 knots against you going north at a bad tide time. Or a couple of knots with you at a better time. Pretty useful.

I need to play more, but thanks for the tip.

One thing is irritating. Charts are a monthly fee. I flat hate that! I do what I can to minimize monthly recurring bites on the butt, and their chart fees are pretty steep. I'd have to fall in love with this one to start that up.

Thanks again
FWT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 08:24 PM   #71
Guru
 
City: West coast
Join Date: Aug 2021
Posts: 1,137
Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
An easy solution with Furuno is to go with TimeZero for the auto routing. However, you have Garmin and you're happy and we were fine on the boat we had it on.
I looked at TimeZero and it looks great. How do you integrate it with Furuno? What type of hardware is needed?

(As to your later post, I’m not putting FLIR in this boat and don’t cruise at night. The one I order new I will add it.
)
bowball is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 08:29 PM   #72
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowball View Post
This has been very interesting and I’m the OP.

I just submitted a big deposit to order a full Furuno suite, especially since I loved their radar. (I’m sure I could still change to Garmin)

The autoroute issue is the only one that gave me pause on Furuno vs Garmin. I did see some YouTube’s with some illogical if not ridiculous plotting though so I started weighing that feature less. The other brands I didn’t really consider due to support here from my maintenance facility.

It’s not a permanent decision as I’m probably ordering a new (same brand slightly bigger) boat shortly, but it’s delivery will be several years out. At that point I’ll revisit this all!

This is what I have on the list, for two helm stations

TZT19F (x2)
DRS6ANXT/4 Radar
FA50 Class B AIS Transceiver
NAVPILOT 711C Autopilot
FI-70 Displays (4 or 5?)
TZT16F
GP330B GPS Receiver
SCX20 Sat compass
DST800L Smartducer

Sounds like an excellent setup.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2021, 08:36 PM   #73
Guru
 
twistedtree's Avatar
 
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,092
Quote:
Originally Posted by bowball View Post
I looked at TimeZero and it looks great. How do you integrate it with Furuno? What type of hardware is needed?

(As to your later post, I’m not putting FLIR in this boat and don’t cruise at night. The one I order new I will add it.
)

He's talking about the Windows PC program, probably TimeZero Pro. There is a phone/pad app, but it's different. Interface to hardware is via ethernet for radar and fish finder, and fine one or more 0183 or N2K intrfaces that connect to the PC for other things.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
twistedtree is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2021, 06:16 AM   #74
Guru
 
ranger58sb's Avatar
 
City: Annapolis
Vessel Name: Ranger
Vessel Model: 58' Sedan Bridge
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 7,088
Quote:
Originally Posted by FWT View Post
I agree with what pretty much everyone agrees on, and that is all of the top brands are pretty good these days. But you still have to choose one, and find a point(s) of differentiation. One of them is auto-routing.

Pretty much everyone is going to get autopilot these days, even if only to use it to hold a straight line course to a compass heading for a time. So if you are going to have one why eliminate the option of auto-route completely? I don't get that part. Preserve the option. (Unless your favorite brand doesn't offer it, but does have some other killer feature important to you.)

So Furuno doesn't offer it. Garmin and Simrad do. Just playing with demos and watching videos there are a couple of important issues that differ.
Note B&B says the newer TimeZero does auto-routing, and I'd expect integration with Furuno hardware is probably pretty seamless with the newer versions of both.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB View Post
I would suggest to all of you to look closely at TimeZero.

https://mytimezero.com/

If you're a Furuno fan then it makes a great front end to Furuno. They even offer a TimeZero-Furuno Ecosystem Cloud. They offer a lot of options in either their Professional or their Navigator system.

We got started with TimeZero when we purchased a boat in 2014 that had Transas and Maxsea in 2014. Maxsea evolved into TimeZero.
I started with Furuno NN3D and Maxsea TimeZero in 2009, and I'm still using TZ v2.something on our ships's (2009) laptop... with another license on our main home machine for additional planning purposes.

Integration wasn't as seamless as it probably is now that ship's WiFi has been invented, and aside from GPS I've not even "hooked up" the laptop to ship's systems...

But I could very easily create waypoints, routes, etc, in TZ and relatively easily cross-load those to the NN3D MFD via an SD Card and sneakernet (from saloon to flybridge).

I don't actually DO that very much. Don't need too many waypoints, don't need hardly any routes, I can't even imagine using a pre-programmed route on the AICW... so auto-routing doesn't ring my chimes.

I've inherited some Garmin bits and pieces, but if I completely replace all that or simply add on some Furuno equipment, one reason will be to take more advantage of a newer version of TZ.

-Chris
__________________
Chesapeake Bay, USA
ranger58sb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2021, 07:56 AM   #75
Guru
 
danderer's Avatar
 
City: Newark, DE
Vessel Name: Infinity
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 48
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 709
I've been playing with auto-routing. What I do is:

- Use Navionics on an iPad to generate the route.
- Send the route from the Navionics app to the TimeZero app (also on the iPad).
- Review/tweak/modify the route as needed in the TimeZero app. (Or on a large-screen monitor using their web/cloud interface.)
- The route is continously/automatically sync'd via the cloud from the TimeZero on the iPad to the Furuno equipment at the helm.

I've tried several systems/combination of apps over the past few years and find this the simplest/quickest/cleanest.

Even without auto-routing I find creating routes using the TimeZero app or web interface and automatically having them sync with the chartplotter is a pain-free system.
danderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2021, 08:35 AM   #76
Guru
 
City: Chattanooga
Vessel Name: Mishy Jean
Vessel Model: Helmsman Trawler 38E
Join Date: Oct 2020
Posts: 1,079
I had Raymarine on my previous boat. I have decided on Furuno on a new boat for a lot of the reasons stated above. Time Zero software on an a Windows PC will end up being my planning tool. Furuno doesn’t sunset equipment like the others do. I bought an eS127 chart right before the Axiom came out and support (updates) ended two years later. Left a bad taste in my mouth. I also like the support from Furuno after several discussions with them.

All of the big four have pluses and minuses but the Furuno pieces work for me
Helmsman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2021, 10:28 AM   #77
Guru
 
ofer's Avatar
 
City: Homer, Ak
Vessel Name: Unicorn
Vessel Model: 1970 50' DEFEVER OFFSHORE CRUISER Timber
Join Date: Apr 2020
Posts: 526
this is what i installed minus the Satellite Compass. I am very happy with the setup.


Quote:
Originally Posted by RickyD View Post
Ok, here is my plan for Furuno:

TZT3-16F MFD
NXT 24 Dome Radar
711C Autopilot
B275LHW-12 Transducer
SCX20 Antenna/Satellite Compass

Not cheap but should be good for a while. I looked at Simrad, Raymarine, Garmin. I liked the Simrad dual band radar. I'm expecting the NXT24 to be much better than my 1995 Raymarine which has trouble seeing small close targets when I have it set at 12nm or more. I need to go to 3nm or closer to see those small targets. I know the Simrad picks them up beautifully. For everything else I like Furuno. Can anyone tell me about seeing small close targets on the Furuno domes. I can't justify an open array at more than twice the price when I don't need 72 miles on the radar screen.
ofer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2021, 04:51 PM   #78
Guru
 
wkearney99's Avatar
 
City: Bethesda, MD
Vessel Name: Solstice
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 47 Eastbay FB
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 2,164
Quote:
Originally Posted by danderer View Post
- Send the route from the Navionics app to the TimeZero app (also on the iPad).
Shame they don't have an Android version of the Timezero app.
__________________
-- Bill Kearney
2005 Eastbay 47 FB - Solstice, w/Highfield CL360 tender
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2021, 06:40 PM   #79
cks
Senior Member
 
City: Oradell
Vessel Name: Silver Lining
Vessel Model: 2003 42’ Grand Banks Europa
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 192
I have contacted Furuno and TineZero.
Full disclosure: I have TimeZero on my pc and the limited version on my iPad.
I love this software. Probably the most intuitive piece of Navigation kit I’ve used. Remarkable.
TineZero says they may design an auto routing upgrade if their customers demand it but so far that has not been the case. Furuno woukd probably like it but their priority is to keep making software and hardware improvements to the TZ3 family.

I’m told the Furuno implementation is good but I have yet to see Furuno. I hope to soon.

I have a Garmin display only. I find the menu layers infuriating and have my fingers crossed that I will like the TZ3Touch.

Re. Auto routing.
Nice but here’s the catch, it’s only for the small area encompassed by that plug in. Want to go from Long Island Sound to the Cape? Want to head south to Annapolis and points south? Garmin’s got their hand in your pocket again. Oh well, fork out another $250 for a new chip. Maddening.

From my experience, plotting my course on TineZero is excellent. It keeps me connected to my chart and route. No mods needed because I plotted it out.

Oh it’s super hard!!!! I have look at the chart on my touch screen PC and touch for each leg. It sooooo hard! It takes me all of 30 seconds and I pick MY course. It may not be the absolute shortest. I might have gone an extra mile distance compared to Garmin’s auto routing or what ever it’s called, but I am convinced that what’s more important is to be knowledgeable about your chart and course BEFORE you leave the dock. From my experience, this isn’t the case with more than a few Garmin users and IMO a safety hazard for all.
cks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2021, 07:32 PM   #80
Guru
 
MYTraveler's Avatar
 
City: West Coast
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,790
Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
Shame they don't have an Android version of the Timezero app.
Probably because it android platforms lack the power necessary to run the software (at least at an acceptable speed -- the "zero" in the name is connotes instant screen changes). Even the PC version's minimum system requirements aren't easily satisfied by many older, and even many current PCs -- especially lap top pcs.
MYTraveler is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:33 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012