Electronics: improvement versus bling

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In addition, true heading is required by class A AIS transmitters (at least the ones I looked at). Class A has big advantages in that it has a much more powerful and frequent transmit periods and sends more data. I personally wouldn’t use a class B in a larger boat as I’ve heard most commercial just tune them out and I myself find class b targets pretty worthless in reduced visibility and rely on the radar overlay and target tracking.
AC
 
I'm curious about why you think a sat compass is that useful? I can't think of much use for it myself.

We installed ours in for a lot of what twistedtree and Arthurc already shared, but a few other reasons as well. These all would be:

- Much better course keeping for AP
- Accurate radar overlay
- Better radar trails
- Precise boat drift from wind, and current
- Bottom mapping for fishing
 
I’d hypothesize that most newer advanced systems like bottom mapping, overlays, flir and camera integration will over time be sub par without or simply require a sat compass. I’d add that last one as well, with the flir or axis camera (spotlights also being released now) you can accurately track a target, before I got an SC33 the tracking could be off by significant amounts and I never unused it.
AC
 
As the former head of the Soviet Navy said (paraphrasing somebody else I am sure) while comparing ours to his, "The best is the enemy of good enough."
 
Ok..to further this discussion regarding "bling" or assumed "bling" vs a tablet or computer based systems, what about integration? Some of you guys running computer or tablet systems....

How much integration can you get with a tablet or computer based system?
How much integration is needed or wanted?
Can a tablet control a Raymarine autopilot?
Can a computer or tablet control a Furuno or Garmin Radar?
I really dont have any experience with making these systems work together.

Is the plug and play of a modern plotter with all the direct hook ups on the back and integrated software to control everything and display everything on one screen in many configurations a plus or a hinderance?

Lets say if you where purchasing a complete system now that consisted of:
1) Radar
2) plotter
3) Autopilot
4) AIS
5)Sonar
6)anything else

At first glance..having a single interface and display for ..all of the above.. seems like a major plus. Redundancy only needs a second head unit.

The newest systems do the opposite of the tablet users. You can couple the plotter screen to the tablet and mimic the plotter screen on the tablet and be anywhere on the boat with the tablet or phone and view and control everything from the handheld device.
 
I personally find the mfd to be a challenge when using everything from it. My TZT has all of the above and more integrated into it but I don’t use is.
1. TZT is how I navigate, it’s what I do autopilot routes from and generally know where I am. I have AIS targets and it shows radar targets i track from TZ Pro as well. I keep all the other stuff off to keep it clean.
2. TZ Pro is where I keep awareness of what’s around as it’s much faster to zoom, scroll, etc. I use radar overlay, camera integration, etc. When foggy or at night I use TZPro a lot, limited when clear/calm.
3. Independent Furuno display for sonar, sog and wind.
Also I’d never get rid of the dedicated autopilot control, the jog and dodge functions are better and easier to reach quickly.
 
I mostly agree with new additions being bling. However, wireless I do find useful. I have recently installed Raymarine's Quantum Radar onto a boat. Easiest installation ever. The radome only needs a 12 (or24)volt supply cable. This only has one plug on the radome end and bare wires on the other. Easy to thread through to a 12v supply as the wire is relatively thing and has no plug. Connect the power source, switch it on go to the MFD select radar connection and put the units name and password in and bingo you are connected. No thick wires with plugs on to try and get through narrow holes

The other time I find it useful is if I am teaching how to drive the boat. I can let the "student" get on with driving and navigating and I can see the same screen as them on my tablet. If there is any danger (navigational, radar or AIS) in the distance or travelling at speed I can make sure they see it without me peering over their shoulder. My crew enjoy the opportunity to drive the boat but still knowing I am keeping an eye on them.

The final time I have used it is to update the system and charts. I am lucky that the boat lives at the bottom of the garden so I can use a WiFi extender to update everything.

I do have to confess I do use autorouting to do some passage planning the night before. At sea I use it for guidance only making sure I study the suggested route in detail at different zooms when at sea.
 
No commercial vessels in the US or Europe “tune out” class B AIS. Since all AIS is now tracked and recorded by satellite, both vessels tracks are available after a collision for the insurance companies (and court case). The commercial ship crew would be found in violation of COLREGS Rule 5 if they had AIS but filtered the Class B. They’d never work at sea again.

The new Vesper Cortex combines a VHF radio and AIS. You can call any AIS target with DSC by just tapping “DSC call” on the AIS info. But most people have no idea what to do if called on DSC so I just hail on 16.

While the Cortex still needs a few more software updates to work out some teething pains - it is the most useful new piece of equipment I’ve seen in at least five years. I have no use for most bells and whistles such as 3D, routing, video on my chart plotter, or stereo.
 
I hear you in terms of liability but that’s not what I have heard from multiple captains who operate large vessels in crowded waterways. The issue with class B is the rate of refresh is so low it’s much less usable than radar target tracking and doesn’t include heading or turning info. I’m sure they don’t turn off the display of class B targets, but if the data presented isn’t as useful as radar or visual tracking would they really pay much attention to it other than knowing the boats name to hail it. Admittedly the blind corner is a use case and likely one they would pay attention to all sources of info.
Specifically class B transmits as infrequently as every 3 minutes (30 seconds best case) and while it often includes heading its often not a super accurate one. Class A has a maximum of 10 seconds between sends and includes true heading and rate of turn. In terms of curiosity of what boats are out there and a general idea of location class b is cool, I’d never trust it to make navigation decisions in reduced visibility.
AC
 
Yes, good point, the new SOTDMA class B+ is every 30 seconds and also jumps to 5w. I just got the Emtrak 951 for the Whaler, good little unit.
 
I'm with Ted, Had enough of the fleecing of the garmin etc. I installed 2 displays 12v monitors from amazon $120 each 2 mini computers $200 each. Jelly keyboards etc 30 Each.
I installed open CPN on them gives me up to date charts at the click of the mouse, weather chart downloads and overlays etc. the monitors also operate as TV, Radio, Media, HDMI, Camera monitors etc. really multifunctional. also using a mini computer I have all computer function as well. All for around $350 a unit



I also used a 12v Tyler lcd monitor.

We run pretty much the same
Far more functionality in a mouse driven mini PC imho.
But I have to ask
What are Jelly Keyboard's?
Google gave me multiple suggestions.
 
NAV equipment

One of the things that you didn't mention is how you use your boat.

IF you keep it on the western shore and run occasionally to the eastern shore for dinner then I'd say your needs are different than mine. That may be the crux to different needs for different people.

Let me start with what you feel you don't need or wouldn't use;
- 3D displays
- Overhead photography
- auto routing
- I hardly ever even use waypoints or pre-planned routes

We are on the Loop and use auto routing extensively, we don't use waypoints or pre-planned routes (not sure what that means) because the auto routing takes care of those.

I should add here that we have been on the Loop since '16. We cruise about 6mo out of the yr and leave the boat where we stop and pick up there the following yr. We started on the York River in the Chesapeake and are now in AL.

We find auto routing a really big help rather than hand steering for several hours at a time. That why I mentioned using your boat for a trip to dinner on the Chesapeake. Short trips, who needs auto routing or waypoints.

Your post would also point out that you haven't been keeping up with Garmin and what they are doing.

IF you are going to keep your 7612xsv up to date for any reason you will need wifi and Active Captain. Once you have registered with AC that app will tell you when you have an update, and the update will be downloaded to AC. Then you will bring your laptop/tablet or phone to your 7612 and the update will 'jump' from your AC to your MFD.

Your use of chart updates, Navionics will offer updates regularly, will be done this way as well so you could get your updates IF you have a way to get it on an SD card. Our 8616xsv uses MSD cards but wifi seems to be a better way. Don't always need to be looking for an SD card.

Gamin will offer you updates to your 8yo system but because it is 8yo there are some benefits you will not be able to use. Newer technology in an MFD will utilize the newest tech available in updates, kind of like a computer or a phone. An 8yo phone you could still make calls on, other things you might do with your phone, like make a reservation using your phone, you know logging into the restaurant to read a menu then make a reservation, might not work.

BTW, for us, using the overhead photography is often a help to see what the marina looks like before we turn the corner and see a layout we weren't expecting.

I hope those reading your post realize that someone who uses their boat for little more than you'd use a car to go to the store, have fewer requirements. IT isn't a bad thing, just a different thing than others who travel further.

Stay safe & healthy out there.
 
IF you are going to keep your 7612xsv up to date for any reason you will need wifi and Active Captain. Once you have registered with AC that app will tell you when you have an update, and the update will be downloaded to AC. Then you will bring your laptop/tablet or phone to your 7612 and the update will 'jump' from your AC to your MFD.

Your use of chart updates, Navionics will offer updates regularly, will be done this way as well so you could get your updates IF you have a way to get it on an SD card. Our 8616xsv uses MSD cards but wifi seems to be a better way. Don't always need to be looking for an SD card.

We had to download the updated G3 charts to our 7612xsv via SD card -- and the card must then stay in the plotter, to use the new charts. Apparently not enough internal memory to inload from card to memory.

I originally tried to use AC, but that marina WiFi at the time was grim... painful for a big download... and then we discovered we'd need the card anyway.

-Chris
 
Hate Hate Hate subscription services for marine maps if i have bought it I would have thought updates would to a certain degree be included. The subscription service is just a plain rip off.:banghead: IMO.
 
I’m a little late coming to this thread, and I appreciate all of the previous posters comments. This is one of those boating subjects where there are a large number of correct answers, it generally depends on how your boat was equipped at purchase (and at subsequent times for replacement equipment), what you like about your equipment, and your level of electronic passion (are you a hobbyist?)

Before I am labeled an older boater who may not appreciate the latest electronic offerings, you should know that many of my 49 years as a professional mariner were spent on the cutting edge of electronic navigation technology, albeit on the commercial side. I first carried a navigation laptop onboard vessels in the early 1990’s, and was involved with beta testing some of the earliest navigation software. But I’ve also been a recreational boater for over 60 years, and my choices of electronics for my present boat naturally reflect all of these experiences.

These are the things that are important to me at this stage of my boating life:
1) A commercial grade radar, 2) commercial grade GPS with one working backup, 3) a conventional laptop with excellent screen resolution and brightness controls running excellent navigation software, 4) easily updated and inexpensive navigation charts, 5) a good autopilot/rudder control system, 6) high quality fathometer, 7) two high quality fixed VHF radios and antennas, 8) AIS transceiver, and 9) paper charts on display for immediate backup should the laptop fail.

When WESTERLY was purchased in 1997, the following were immediately removed from the boat: 1) Dedicated early model chart plotter, SSB radio, VHF radio direction finder, 2 meter radio, 2 VHF radios, 2 CB radios, and LORAN. As with most electronic equipment over 4 years of age, only half of it worked.

When I refitted with upgraded/updated electronics, I chose a conventional laptop with navigation software over a chart plotter, many of which required proprietary (and costly) navigation charts. It was plain to me (even in 1997) that chart plotters were good for their manufacturers, and not as good for their users. This observation has been continuously affirmed over the past 25 years. Of course, many bridge layouts (especially on smaller boats) do not have the real estate for a conventional laptop, and chart plotters may be the only choices without a complete redesign.

Let me also say that I’m not a fan of integration, other than: GPS position input to the charting software and VHF radios for DSC distress calling, and AIS input to the charting software. So I don’t have any MFD’s. When I navigated ships for a living, features such as chart overlays on radar/MFD screens was one of the first thing that was turned off when assuming navigational duties, there was just too much information on a single screen. They are prone to syncing issues, and they might cover small radar return targets indicating small vessels. Immediately isolating the radar and then tuning and adjusting gain and sea/rain clutter filters, were the most significant initial steps that could be made for navigation safety, and this was borne out in many training events over many years.

My larger message is: Buy the electronic features that you think will enhance navigation safety and the safety of your boat, get a full understanding of how the equipment/software works (including its limitations), and don’t become pre-occupied with electronics if it prevents keeping a good lookout.
 
We have all the bells and whistles but don't find any of it to be bling. It's all useful at different times. I find AIS, Sonar and Night Vision to be huge steps forward, just as autopilot and radar once were.

As to MFD vs. Tablet, I think of the MFD as a desktop computer and I still use Desktops for work while carrying a tablet everywhere I go. I want the biggest possible screen for frequent use. The laptops and tablets give us quick backups but also allow us to look at what's on the MFD from elsewhere on the boat.

Only thing you mentioned, I'm not that good at reading is 3D but that's just my problem. I was a lot better in plain geometry than solid and don't like looking at 3D versions of homes or apartments. My wife is giggling as she's a 3D lover. We do find overhead photography useful but then we were always pulling up google to have the same. Sure helps get a picture of a new area and a quick view of the layout of marinas.
 
I think that you can purchase an SD card for your update(s) from several locations BUT the easiest is to use wifi or a hotspot to get the updates and then transfer them to your 7612xsv (7612 for less typing). The wifi you set up is just between your phone/tablet/pc and the MFD. Marina wifi doesn't come into consideration.

IF the update is for a chart that you have, yes you need to leave the SD card in the MFD, IF it is for a base map update, you can run the update to the MFD and remove that, it will have updated the MFD and not be necessary.

I think but haven't done it yet, that if you want to keep Active Captain available for anchorage and marina reviews you will have to keep an SD card with AC on it in the MFD.

I recently talked with a Garmin Tech who simplified my needs. I was going to do our base map update but the base map is a 'generalized' map. We are in AL and will round FL to Jacksonville this season and the new N, S, E, W, Vision+ charts cover the areas we cruise and the Southern 1 is what we will need this yr. So purchasing the Vision+ card which provides for autoroutes, overhead pictures and more detail will not require the base map to be updated. It in essence will be updated with the new Vision+ card.

In closing, I'm not sure that it has to do with memory other than looking at an MFD as a computer. IF you keep info you need on an SD card (totally electronic) that keeps more memory for processing and quicker display results. All of the data is kept on Solid State meaning it will transfer faster as needed. Therefore, why have the cost of more internal memory when the data can be kept on an SD card.

There is a lot of new tech out there and it is often hard to keep up, BUT again, it depends on what cruising you are doing as to how many 'bells & whistles' you might find helpful.

BTW, daughter lives on the Magothy who we visit as much as possible. We are located outside of Philly, when not on the boat, and often use reciprocity from my Boat Club to visit Eastport YC for a meal.
 
I think that you can purchase an SD card for your update(s) from several locations BUT the easiest is to use wifi or a hotspot to get the updates and then transfer them to your 7612xsv (7612 for less typing). The wifi you set up is just between your phone/tablet/pc and the MFD. Marina wifi doesn't come into consideration.

IF the update is for a chart that you have, yes you need to leave the SD card in the MFD, IF it is for a base map update, you can run the update to the MFD and remove that, it will have updated the MFD and not be necessary.

In closing, I'm not sure that it has to do with memory other than looking at an MFD as a computer. IF you keep info you need on an SD card (totally electronic) that keeps more memory for processing and quicker display results. All of the data is kept on Solid State meaning it will transfer faster as needed. Therefore, why have the cost of more internal memory when the data can be kept on an SD card.


Thanks. I had to use slooooooowwwww marina WiFi to get the software (first) and then chart data (afterwards) onto the SD card. Then, apparently, the chart update doesn't (didn't) erase the pre-existing built-in G2 charts. Hence my guess about memory usage.

I don't really mind using the card. So far, given having to use the card for charts anyway, I haven't found a use for the Garmin WiFi net. Might be one, but I didn't really have time to experiment. (We were already also running AquaMap on one tablet, iSailor on another tablet, and TimeZero on the laptop.)

I'll get more time to experiment with it after we re-launch and I have power to the boat... and hopefully we'll also get the Furuno network installed shortly after that, too.

Maybe we could quaff something liquid at the Boat Yard B&G or at Davis' Pub sometime. :)

-Chris
 
I think laptops will take over the world, it's just a matter of time. My recent frustration with my Garmin MFD losing satellites is heightened by the fact that my wife, sitting at the dinette working on her computer, can click on her laptop, see our location and the approaching AIS vessel, etc., and then bring it over to the helm so that I'm not travelling blind. When the Garmin is working, she can WiFi in and see exactly what I'm seeing, including radar and the Garmin losing satellites and warning that the GPS isn't working.

When I built my house, I snaked some empty conduit to each room for running coaxial cable for satellite TV, Ethernet cables, etc. A thoroughly modern house in the boonies. What a waste of time. Within a few years wire connections were dinosaurs.

It seems like some of the companies selling boating electronics are spending more on keeping their systems proprietary rather than actual advances. If the purpose of NEMA was for the advancement of nautical instrumentation, it would have a truly unified language which could be sent to a laptop. The only remaining decision might be Mac or Microsoft. But NEMA appears to be an odd mixture of semi-consumer benefit/trade organization, therefore they are in an impossible position (and it shows).

Who would have thought that a computer (and monitor!!) could fit in a briefcase? Or that a briefcase size computer could tell you LAT LON? Or make a phone call. Or ________ (your imagination is probably the limit). The developments in the next 5 years will likely make the past 20 years the nautical instrument olden days. It is certainly possible to make a stick-on through-hull transducer with WiFi to a laptop. The same with many other sensors. Nothing proprietary. A laptop with VHF radio? Sure. A laptop that interprets radar signals? Why not? A laptop that replaces the head? Just because I can't imagine how it could be done doesn't mean that it isn't possible.

As for bling, what could be better than a VacuFlush app on a laptop.
 
I think laptops will take over the world, it's just a matter of time. My recent frustration with my Garmin MFD losing satellites is heightened by the fact that my wife, sitting at the dinette working on her computer, can click on her laptop, see our location and the approaching AIS vessel, etc., and then bring it over to the helm so that I'm not travelling blind. When the Garmin is working, she can WiFi in and see exactly what I'm seeing, including radar and the Garmin losing satellites and warning that the GPS isn't working.

When I built my house, I snaked some empty conduit to each room for running coaxial cable for satellite TV, Ethernet cables, etc. A thoroughly modern house in the boonies. What a waste of time. Within a few years wire connections were dinosaurs.

Long, long ago in an ancient time and in an ancient world, in another century from today, they predicted laptops taking over. Two mistakes. That was before the attack of the tablets and smart phones plus offices have largely stuck to desktops.

So, what do we have? Hardware that matches the use. In our offices, we have desktops, although not on the top of any desks, and 32" monitors as standard. But if that's not enough, on the back wall of the office they have a 55" LED monitor they can synch to for others to see. Otherwise they can just keep their favorite scene up and if zooming pretend they're on a Caribbean beach.

We have tablets in the stores and in the field and laptop/tablet hybrids for some. The laptops of a few years ago are mostly out now as too heavy and bulky.

In schools, Chromebooks have taken over and some iPads still around, but no traditional laptops being used in most places, although some now supplying for teachers. I know one teacher who now has a desktop at school with a 19" monitor, a 32" monitor they bought, a laptop that also hooks to the monitors and has a docking station, an iPad and a Chromebook. They got all this as three years ago the school used iPads then switched to Chromebook, and for some reason now someone has decided to replace the desktops with laptops but they still have the desktops. The reason for the laptops is for any teachers who don't have desktop computers at home as the schools are getting firmly set up to continue classes from anywhere at anytime. Now, for snow or ice, they advise all students to be sure to take their Chromebooks home as they will have class.

I don't see laptops replacing MFD's but I do hope for (ok, I can dream) something less proprietary from a hardware point of view and just with special software. Something like a built in desktop computer with choices of monitors, but hoping (fantasizing) that one day all that is proprietary is the software and all the other equipment. I hate buying a package and not knowing how much is the software, how much is the system hardware, and how much is the monitor. It's like being told to buy this software, you must buy this computer and this monitor as part of the package.
 
Agree it won’t be laptops, there will always be a place for highly tested dedicated hardware so MFDs will be around, laptops are too constrained in terms of monitors, input devices, etc.
I just wish someone would make a really good open platform for TimeZero or CE or whatever. The NUCs are ok but the high end gaming one has fan/cooling issues (on my third fan) and barely keeps up with TZ.
-Fast processor
-16+gb of RAM
-SSD HDD
-High performance graphics card(s)
-External power supply so you can go straight from 12V
-No Fan

Since I’m wishing I’ll add in that I wish TZ and N2KView supported Linux and/or Microsoft stopped needing updates every 24 hours….
 
Agree it won’t be laptops, there will always be a place for highly tested dedicated hardware so MFDs will be around, laptops are too constrained in terms of monitors, input devices, etc.
I just wish someone would make a really good open platform for TimeZero or CE or whatever. The NUCs are ok but the high end gaming one has fan/cooling issues (on my third fan) and barely keeps up with TZ.
-Fast processor
-16+gb of RAM
-SSD HDD
-High performance graphics card(s)
-External power supply so you can go straight from 12V
-No Fan

Since I’m wishing I’ll add in that I wish TZ and N2KView supported Linux and/or Microsoft stopped needing updates every 24 hours….


Seconded. Having sunlight viewable displays with good resolution (and possibly touchscreen) be more available would help as well. The ones out there aren't cheap at all, so if you want to come up with a true functional equivalent of an MFD it's not really much cheaper (especially once you add in the network sounder modules and such to replace functionality the MFD had built in).
 
Half the crap on the market today is technology for technology's sake and has no more practical value then electronics you could buy ten to fifteen years ago.
 
Agree it won’t be laptops, there will always be a place for highly tested dedicated hardware so MFDs will be around, laptops are too constrained in terms of monitors, input devices, etc.
I just wish someone would make a really good open platform for TimeZero or CE or whatever. The NUCs are ok but the high end gaming one has fan/cooling issues (on my third fan) and barely keeps up with TZ.
-Fast processor
-16+gb of RAM
-SSD HDD
-High performance graphics card(s)
-External power supply so you can go straight from 12V
-No Fan

Since I’m wishing I’ll add in that I wish TZ and N2KView supported Linux and/or Microsoft stopped needing updates every 24 hours….

Lenovo tiny might get you there
I9
32gb ram
SSD HD

https://www.lenovo.com/au/en/deskto.../m-series-tiny/ThinkCentre-M90q/p/WMD00000418
 
That was before the attack of the tablets and smart phones plus offices have largely stuck to desktops.

I see my mistake. I call every portable computer thingy a laptop. I wouldn't know an Iphone from a Chrome doodad. My wife thought it funny when I kept calling her little book-reading thing a Kimble instead of a Kindle. So now I find out that Kindles aren't laptops? I learn something new every day, although lately it is often something I've been told before. Anyway, a little portable computer-like gadget with a screen will soon consolidate all prior nautical electronic instruments.

Remember when depth sounders only gave depth and had a spinning flashing light? Now that was bling. Back then, a fish finder was a separate instrument that had a hook on one end.
 
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