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Old 05-08-2022, 01:46 PM   #41
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On top of that are ethical concerns that arise due to the nature of the process of mining raw materials to make electric vehicles and the emissions involved therein & their disposal.
So where else do we get raw materials if we don't mine them?
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Old 05-08-2022, 04:12 PM   #42
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Lots of advice here, some good and some, well...

My first test would be a quick check of voltage under discharge at the batteries and at the inverter. What you are doing is simply verifying that there is not a voltage drop occurring.

If that is the case then yes your house bank is probably at end of life.

At a 50% discharge your lead acid battery bank under load should still be at around 11.6 volts which will not shut down any inverter or cause any problems. In face my battery bank was at 50% this morning and was at 11.6 volts.

Further the idea that you need a larger battery bank is just not true, if you are OK with running your generator when you get up in the morning. I for one need to run the generator to make water, cook, make coffee, etc... so I have no problem having a battery bank sized to my needs, and my cruising style, not what someone else deems the "correct size"

Should you spend the money on Lithium? That is a question only you can answer. My opinion is that if your charging system is not capable of exceeding the charge rate of your Lead Acid bank then there is not much to gain by switching to Lithium. So now we are not just looking at battery replacement, wer are looking at a wholesale changeout of your charging system and all that entails.

If ity were my boat I would spend the $1500 or so to change out the LA batteries, and pay another $500 for a couple of strong indiciduals to do the heavy lifting while you enjoy a cold beer and remember when you were young and strong.
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Old 05-08-2022, 05:54 PM   #43
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OK but real use of the system did essentially this test. I drew a bit less than the 20% amperage (48a) for 3.5 hours and the system cutout on low battery voltage. Isn't that enough to let me know that the battery capacity is not there?
3.5 X 48= 168 and 10.5 tripped, I see another noted that. So what was the SOC at the start? What was voltage after the trip? As pointed out 11.6v is approx. 50% discharge.
IMO, tripping at 10.5v only suggests a large draw, that draw that is keeping a 48a average. the voltage after trip could confirm change the batteries if they do not recover above 11.6~
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Old 05-09-2022, 06:21 AM   #44
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My bad for not reading your first post on this issue carefully enough. What is output of the Xantrex and any other chargers you have onboard?
Xantrex (2) are rated 150a charging
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:26 PM   #45
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Power Audit Completed

I've spent a few hours over the past few days trying to figure out where my power goes. While I'm not shocked at the results, I am surprised at how quickly things add up...

My 48A 'average' discharge rate while anchored out is exactly in line with my findings. Here are the loads I identified:

- 6.5A with all breakers OFF, both inverters ON. (This includes inverter overhead and all the 'sneaker' loads that are not tied to either a 120v or 12v breaker.)
- 9A engine room 12V exhaust blower
- 2A GPS system ON (anchor watch)
- 2A anchor light
- 1A AFT Stairwell LED lights
- 1.4A FWD stairwell LED lights
- 13A galley 120V refrigerator
- 13A engine room LED strip lights
- 5A engine room 120V circ fan
- 5A small refrigerator on FB
- 3A TV / Stereo system
- 2A Salon outlets (phone chargers, etc)

That all adds up to over 66A, take away 13A for the galley fridge cycling and we are right at 48A average draw.

Surprises: I had no idea that my engine room lights draw so much! I have 4 duplex fluorescent fixtures that draw 15A, and the LED strip lights (8) draw 13A by themselves. Guess I'll be going dark while at anchor from now on.

Now that I understand how I can reduce the load, I'm still left with a 1200 Ah house bank that quits after forking out ~165Ah. I guess all that's left is to determine if I have 1 (or more) bad batteries affecting the whole bank.

How do I setup a proper load test to determine if the batteries need replacement? Specifically, what do I use for a load if, as I'm told, the automotive battery testers are not the way to go?
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:30 PM   #46
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Looking at bare minimums, I can likely get my load down to 25A +/- with all blowers & unnecessary lights off. That should be handled easily by a 1200 Ah house bank - assuming it's in decent shape..... Just looking for overnight operation without the generator running.
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:31 PM   #47
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At the price point of Ampere time 300 ah lifepo4 for 1300 ish your getting the equivalent of nearly 600 ah of agm or Fla, at not much more the price.
I've had several Insurance policies on both my own and customers boats and have yet to see proof of insurance having any issues with lifepo4. I have used relion, kilovault and amperetime, with great results
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Old 05-12-2022, 03:39 PM   #48
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You can easily cut the anchor light down too. A good LED unit will draw no more than 0.25 amps, even for something brighter than the minimum requirements.

The fridges also won't be a constant load, they'll cycle on and off.
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Old 05-12-2022, 04:18 PM   #49
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How do I setup a proper load test to determine if the batteries need replacement? Specifically, what do I use for a load if, as I'm told, the automotive battery testers are not the way to go?
One way to do this would be to test the voltage across each battery under load (with the other batteries disconnected).

Not sure how difficult this would be with your pack setup, but the idea would be to run the pack down a bit, then pick a set of known loads (e.g. lights, blowers, no fridges). Run those same loads off each 12V house battery individually without the others connected & note the voltage. Then turn off the loads, switch the the next battery & repeat.

If you have a bad battery, its voltage will likely plummet compared to the others when you turn the load on.

If you find such a battery, you can hook the rest of your house bank back up & leave it out of the loop until you can replace.
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Old 05-12-2022, 05:06 PM   #50
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How many LED lights are you running to draw that much current? My LEDs don’t draw nearly that much. They are in the 30 to 50 mAmps range. So 20 to 30 of them may draw an amp.
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Old 05-12-2022, 05:28 PM   #51
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How many LED lights are you running to draw that much current? My LEDs don’t draw nearly that much. They are in the 30 to 50 mAmps range. So 20 to 30 of them may draw an amp.

Yeah, not sure about that unless you count each individual led in a bulb.

A single 6w @ 12v warm white mr16 led draws 0.5 amp
But it has probably 8 individual leds in it.
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Old 05-12-2022, 05:42 PM   #52
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It could be just one cell on one of the 8Ds bad. Test the 8Ds individually.
Totally agree. The red flag for me is if your agm's are bad after 4 years. I would not want to purchase new batteries before verifying the batteries are correctly setup-same wire length, positive and negative hooked up on opposite ends of the house bank, etc. One bad battery can take down the whole house bank. I would also verify the correct charging voltage with a meter. As someone already stated, improper charging will kill the batteries.
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Old 05-12-2022, 05:49 PM   #53
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I've spent a few hours over the past few days trying to figure out where my power goes. While I'm not shocked at the results, I am surprised at how quickly things add up...

My 48A 'average' discharge rate while anchored out is exactly in line with my findings. Here are the loads I identified:

- 6.5A with all breakers OFF, both inverters ON. (This includes inverter overhead and all the 'sneaker' loads that are not tied to either a 120v or 12v breaker.)
- 9A engine room 12V exhaust blower
- 2A GPS system ON (anchor watch)
- 2A anchor light
- 1A AFT Stairwell LED lights
- 1.4A FWD stairwell LED lights
- 13A galley 120V refrigerator
- 13A engine room LED strip lights
- 5A engine room 120V circ fan
- 5A small refrigerator on FB
- 3A TV / Stereo system
- 2A Salon outlets (phone chargers, etc)

That all adds up to over 66A, take away 13A for the galley fridge cycling and we are right at 48A average draw.

Something not right there

We run as much if not more than that
No ER lights or fans at night (why would you?) But do have 30 cubic feet of household 240v refrigeration across 4 units going 24/7

On a 24v system the most I have seen on our Victron 712 is around 21 amps but usually around 12 amps
So 42 and 24
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Old 05-12-2022, 06:56 PM   #54
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Your system is 12V, and I think you are dealing with 12V batteries, not 6V? If that’s correct, all the batteries will be in parallel, and as such will always meter out to the same value. To suss out a bad battery, you will need to disconnect them one at a time, and then measure each individually. You only need to disconnect either the positive side or the negative side - it doesn’t matter which. Let us know what voltage readings you get. Maybe there is just one bad battery, or one that’s much worse than the others.
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Old 05-12-2022, 07:18 PM   #55
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How many LED lights are you running to draw that much current? My LEDs don’t draw nearly that much. They are in the 30 to 50 mAmps range. So 20 to 30 of them may draw an amp.

There are 8 shop LED lights 4 feet long so 32 feet of LEDs. They are 120v units.
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Old 05-12-2022, 07:22 PM   #56
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...On a 24v system the most I have seen on our Victron 712 is around 21 amps but usually around 12 amps
So 42 and 24

Not seeing a significant difference here... I'm at 48 and likely 25 when I kill the ER lights / fans at the end of the day. What am I missing?
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Old 05-12-2022, 07:31 PM   #57
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Why are the ER lights on while you're not down there? In my mind, those only need to be on for engine checks or while doing maintenance.
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Old 05-12-2022, 07:35 PM   #58
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Not seeing a significant difference here... I'm at 48 and likely 25 when I kill the ER lights / fans at the end of the day. What am I missing?
The 48 amp average

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...

My 48A 'average' discharge rate while anchored out
You are saying now it's 48 peak and 25 low so likely an average around mid 30
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Old 05-13-2022, 06:05 AM   #59
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Why are the ER lights on while you're not down there? In my mind, those only need to be on for engine checks or while doing maintenance.
Had wrongly assumed that since they were LED that draw would be really low. Lesson learned...
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Old 05-13-2022, 06:33 AM   #60
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I have casually browsed this thread for several days. Really feels like some sort of energy audit/budget would help you make informed choices and decisions. A bit daunting on a 62-foot boat but if you seek a quiet existance, its something you need to do (even if just rough-estimates). When I did it, I was surprised at the little stuff - PCs, TVs, etc. They do indeed add-up.

There are two XLS attachments in this URL for ocean-racers in the Pacific Cup. Although geared towards smaller, simpler boats, the format is easily expanded.

https://pacificcup.org/kb/energy-management

Good luck -

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