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01-10-2021, 12:22 PM
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#1
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Cat 3208TA alternator wiring to external regulator
Hola!
Prepping to install new Wakespeed 500 external regulators, and i'm looking to see if anyone has a wiring schematic for the 01Z 3208TA.
Specifically:
- ignition wire (connected to switched voltage- zero volts when off and min 8.5vdc to activate)
- Lamp wire- ground for charging lamp.
Thanks!
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Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-10-2021, 05:11 PM
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#2
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Senior Member
City: Bella Bella
Vessel Name: Tenacious
Vessel Model: Uniflite 31 FB Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 312
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Standard 3208 alternator is integral regulated. Have you got externally regulated alternators? If yes then the standard automotive regulators should be there with 4 pin connectors. One terminal is spaced away from the others, that's Ignition, then Battery, Stator, and Field. The externally regulated alternators are positive-field. Charge warning lamp is typically connected to a specific terminal for that on an internally regulated unit, these are negative-field. Check your new regulator manual for charge lamp provision.
So, got to see the alternators you have or plan to use.
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Experience develops good judgement, bad judgement develops experience
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01-10-2021, 05:28 PM
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#3
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngNate
Standard 3208 alternator is integral regulated. Have you got externally regulated alternators? If yes then the standard automotive regulators should be there with 4 pin connectors. One terminal is spaced away from the others, that's Ignition, then Battery, Stator, and Field. The externally regulated alternators are positive-field. Charge warning lamp is typically connected to a specific terminal for that on an internally regulated unit, these are negative-field. Check your new regulator manual for charge lamp provision.
So, got to see the alternators you have or plan to use.
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The alts are new Lee-Niceville externally regulated alternators, replacing the 51 amp Motorola alternators currently installed.
If you have a diagram, I'd appreciate it! Thanks!
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Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-10-2021, 07:54 PM
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#4
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Senior Member
City: Bella Bella
Vessel Name: Tenacious
Vessel Model: Uniflite 31 FB Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 312
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Does the existing alternator look like this? (regardless brand) This is an integrally regulated, self-excited unit that does not use an ignition wire. If this is the case, and the engine has an activate-to-stop fuel solenoid, there may not be an ignition wire in the harness at all. If it has an energized to run solenoid you can simply take your ignition connection from the run solenoid. A good option for any case is to install an oil pressure switch for this purpose. The regulator assembly on these can be interchanged with an externally regulated version, it has two stud connections, possibly a one stud version too. The published engine wiring diagram, which goes by the engine arrangement number, might or not be what was actually installed, or what is there now. Provision for a charge warning light has to be in the alternator. If you have it you'll be giving it up with the new units, I think. So ignition is all you're looking for, take it off the solenoids or install oil pressure switches.
Have you tried fitting one of the new ones? The limited clearance to the exhaust manifold is an issue for upsizing. To install a large frame unit, I made a trunion mount which dropped the mounting down an inch or so. And my belt arrangement won't let me get a double on it, and it was an issue so I had a slightly larger pulley made.
Hope that's at least slightly helpful!
__________________
Experience develops good judgement, bad judgement develops experience
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01-10-2021, 11:00 PM
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#5
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngNate
Attachment 112576
Does the existing alternator look like this? (regardless brand) This is an integrally regulated, self-excited unit that does not use an ignition wire. If this is the case, and the engine has an activate-to-stop fuel solenoid, there may not be an ignition wire in the harness at all. If it has an energized to run solenoid you can simply take your ignition connection from the run solenoid. A good option for any case is to install an oil pressure switch for this purpose. The regulator assembly on these can be interchanged with an externally regulated version, it has two stud connections, possibly a one stud version too. The published engine wiring diagram, which goes by the engine arrangement number, might or not be what was actually installed, or what is there now. Provision for a charge warning light has to be in the alternator. If you have it you'll be giving it up with the new units, I think. So ignition is all you're looking for, take it off the solenoids or install oil pressure switches.
Have you tried fitting one of the new ones? The limited clearance to the exhaust manifold is an issue for upsizing. To install a large frame unit, I made a trunion mount which dropped the mounting down an inch or so. And my belt arrangement won't let me get a double on it, and it was an issue so I had a slightly larger pulley made.
Hope that's at least slightly helpful!
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That’s the alternator, but changed to external regulation.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-11-2021, 10:24 AM
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#6
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Senior Member
City: Bella Bella
Vessel Name: Tenacious
Vessel Model: Uniflite 31 FB Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 312
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That is the currently installed unit, yes? (looks new, like it might be the upgrade)
OK, so then there are regulators nearby, similar to this one?:
If different, post a pic to ID it. The terminals on this style are, left to right:
Ignition+, Battery +, Stator, Field, Battery (-) to the case
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01-11-2021, 10:55 AM
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#7
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngNate
That is the currently installed unit, yes? (looks new, like it might be the upgrade)
OK, so then there are regulators nearby, similar to this one?:
Attachment 112593
If different, post a pic to ID it. The terminals on this style are, left to right:
Ignition+, Battery +, Stator, Field, Battery (-) to the case
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No, sir- currently the factory Motorolas (internally regulated) are installed, and are being replaced with the externally regulated Lee-Niceville units.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-11-2021, 12:01 PM
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#8
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Senior Member
City: Bella Bella
Vessel Name: Tenacious
Vessel Model: Uniflite 31 FB Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 312
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OK. We're looking for the existing harness wires to be used with your new regulator. Is the currently installed alternator like the one I posted, with a yellow wire coming out each side of the regulator assembly? If so, it is a self-turn-on and does not have Ign going to it. You will in that case use the run solenoid connection or an oil pressure switch. You mentioned charge warning light, do you have that and it works? If yes, and the alt is self turn on then the lamp will be the only small wire going to it. How many, if any, small wires are connected? Going with the self turn on assumption, do you stop the engine just by turning the key off? If yes then you have a run solenoid and can use that connection to turn your regulator on. You will probably find that wire goes to a relay closer to where you'll mount the regulator and you can connect there.
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01-11-2021, 12:15 PM
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#9
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Senior Member
City: Burien
Vessel Name: Star Weird
Vessel Model: Camargue
Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 381
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Following this... LOVE to hear what you think about the Wakespeed devices after you install them. They really seem like the next iteration in external regulators (next-gen)...
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01-11-2021, 06:46 PM
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#10
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EngNate
OK. We're looking for the existing harness wires to be used with your new regulator. (1) Is the currently installed alternator like the one I posted, with a yellow wire coming out each side of the regulator assembly? If so, it is a self-turn-on and does not have Ign going to it. You will in that case use the run solenoid connection or an oil pressure switch. (2) You mentioned charge warning light, do you have that and it works? If yes, and the alt is self turn on then the lamp will be the only small wire going to it. (3) How many, if any, small wires are connected? (4) Going with the self turn on assumption, do you stop the engine just by turning the key off? If yes then you have a run solenoid and can use that connection to turn your regulator on. You will probably find that wire goes to a relay closer to where you'll mount the regulator and you can connect there.
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Appreciate the assistance!
Answers- - 1- The current installed alternator is the factory installed unit- I'll have photos of the wiring shortly.
- 2 - The charge indication light come on after the engine is started and the engine RPM is increased
to approximately 800 RPM.
- 3- Will have photos later.
- 4- The engine is stopped by a push button, which activates the stop solenoid.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-11-2021, 06:47 PM
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#11
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottwb96
Following this... LOVE to hear what you think about the Wakespeed devices after you install them. They really seem like the next iteration in external regulators (next-gen)...
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Thus far- the interaction with Rick at Wakespeed has been excellent- much more so than with the Balmar folks...
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-11-2021, 07:16 PM
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#12
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Guru
City: Coupeville Wa.
Vessel Name: Pacific Myst
Vessel Model: West Bay 4500
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 2,414
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Pau Hana,
What alternators are you using? I'm considering a similar upgrade on twin 3208 NAs. I plan on using Compass Marine's CMI-104-ER alts and Wakepeeds WS 500.
Both alts will serve the house bank which also serves as start bank. A single 8D sits in reserve for starting and will be kept charge up by a DC to DC chsarger. Undecided yet.
__________________
Some things are worth doing simply because they are worth doing.
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01-11-2021, 07:59 PM
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#13
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Portage_Bay
Pau Hana,
What alternators are you using? I'm considering a similar upgrade on twin 3208 NAs. I plan on using Compass Marine's CMI-104-ER alts and Wakepeeds WS 500.
Both alts will serve the house bank which also serves as start bank. A single 8D sits in reserve for starting and will be kept charge up by a DC to DC chsarger. Undecided yet.
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Exactly the alternators I have (externally regulated), purchased from Ballard Electric. I set up the new electrical so the alternators feed the house bank directly via the Victron Lynx DC distribution system. The start bank is isolated, and fed via a DC-DC charger.
I interviewed both Balmar and Wakespeed tech support folks, and found Rick T Wakespeed is highly knowledgeable of his product, and the tech aspects of the install are much simpler than Balmar’s. Instead of a spiderweb of wires from 2 Balmar 612s and a Centerfielder, a Wakespeed regulator (1 per engine) is programmed via USB, then connected via a simple ethernet cable.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-11-2021, 08:52 PM
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#14
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Senior Member
City: Bella Bella
Vessel Name: Tenacious
Vessel Model: Uniflite 31 FB Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 312
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So, with a push to stop there is no Ign feed on the engine. It might possibly still be in the harness coming from the helm and you could look for that if Cat panel & harness was used. But I would use oil pressure switches, though they are about $70 each. Stewart Warner/Hobbs p/n 76575 or 76576.
Lamp on to indicate charging is new to me, typical is lamp on indicates fault.
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01-14-2021, 06:01 AM
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#15
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Guru
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 22,553
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IF a rotary switch is use to disconnect the battery from an operating alt , the diodes in the alt can fry.
When upgrading be sure any rotary or other switch has field disconnect terminals on the back, and are part of the circuit.
I have seen rotary switches that had the field disconnects , that were never used.
Most alt fields are under 10amps , so the wire is not that expensive.
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01-14-2021, 06:50 AM
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#16
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF
IF a rotary switch is use to disconnect the battery from an operating alt , the diodes in the alt can fry.
When upgrading be sure any rotary or other switch has field disconnect terminals on the back, and are part of the circuit.
I have seen rotary switches that had the field disconnects , that were never used.
Most alt fields are under 10amps , so the wire is not that expensive.
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I’m installing Sterling APDs to protect the alternator.
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-15-2021, 09:41 PM
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#17
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Guru
City: Seattle, WA
Vessel Name: Pau Hana
Vessel Model: 1989 PT52 Overseas Yachtfisher
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 2,676
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Current alternator photos with wiring:
__________________
Peter- Marine Insurance Guru at Novamar Insurance Group (206-350-5051) & tuna fishing addict!
1989 52' PT Overseas yachtfisher
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01-15-2021, 09:55 PM
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#18
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Senior Member
City: Bella Bella
Vessel Name: Tenacious
Vessel Model: Uniflite 31 FB Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 312
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Self turn-on, no ignition wire. Look for it in the harness at the helm: Back of panel, wire from keyswitch to all the gauge + terminals - does it go into the harness? If yes, look for that color at the engine connector, verify with a test light. If no, options are run wires or install oil pressure switches. Ports for switches are convenient, on the cylinder heads, at rear on the alternator side.
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01-18-2021, 06:33 PM
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#19
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Newbie
City: League City, Tx
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 4
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EngNate,
Interested in your reunion mount that you fabricated. Can you share a picture?
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01-18-2021, 11:58 PM
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#20
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Senior Member
City: Bella Bella
Vessel Name: Tenacious
Vessel Model: Uniflite 31 FB Sedan
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 312
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I'll see what I can do for a pic on the engine. The attached crude drawing lays it out. I used 1/4" steel. I built-to-fit so I don't have any dimensions. It's two trunions (a U-shaped mount) back to back, so one attaches to the mounting ear on the engine and the other to the alternator, extending the alternator 1" or so out, down and outboard, from the original position, allowing the mounting of a Leece Neville 7000 series. I made the two trunions, mounted them respectively and held the assembly in place and marked for approximate belt alignment. Pulley shims were used for the final alignment - install some shims before the first step.
It's very important that the pieces of this assembly are cut precisely at joins, drilled in perfect alignment, and assembled pretty precisely square and parallel to avoid angular misalignment. Nonetheless I made mine with basic shop tools. I spaced mounting ears by assembling with a piece of paper grocery bag between and tacking in place.
Make one trunion a bit wider than the other for the bead when they're welded together, and position ears so they get a bead on both sides.
The belt arrangement I've got isn't the ideal solution but it works OK, such that at 6 years since, improving it hasn't yet made the priority list although it's on the wish list, mainly because I'd like to restore the dual belts on the jacket water pump. I'll post some pics and more details next day or so.
AltBrkt.pdf
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