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Old 11-26-2018, 09:43 PM   #41
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from Chris Gibson directly:

"Obviously I am not prepared to disclose how SmartGauge works. Anyone who asks me to do so is simply being totally unreasonable.
But to say that only voltage can be measured via 2 wires is *completely* incorrect.....

Pull a brief current pulse from the battery and measure the voltage drop, this will give an indication of internal resistance.

Present an AC voltage across the battery and measure the phase angle and amplitude of the resultant current. This will show the AC impedance of the battery.

Do the same thing with a wide variety of frequencies and analyse the results. This is know as AC impedance spectrography."

___________
SmartGauge of course measures voltage, just that it's doing it over a thousand times / second, modeling against an internal database, and improving its accuracy over time without user intervention.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2747251

also
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread...-system/page6&
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:51 PM   #42
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from Chris Gibson directly:"Obviously I am not prepared to disclose how SmartGauge works. Anyone who asks me to do so is simply being totally unreasonable....
Remarkable how similar that is, to your declining multiple requests to tell us the source and experience behind your self asserted expertise.
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:02 PM   #43
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I feel your pain.
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:03 PM   #44
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Remarkable how similar that is, to your declining multiple requests to tell us the source and experience behind your self asserted expertise.
With the exception that Mr. Gibson likely knows what he is talking about.
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:14 PM   #45
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That is exactly CMS' argument for the Smart Gage, and a valid one. What TT and I are doing is interpreting the instantaneous voltage with some knowledge of the history, I'm quite sure the Smart Gage is just a formally developed algorithm doing the same thing. That's all it can do, because that is all the information it has. With additional knowledge of load (provided by the amp meter) the algorithm can be improved. I don't consider SOC to be a very useful number in how I manage the boat - but in different circumstances for different owners, it might be.
That does work well for most chemistries, but not so for Lithium. Voltage readings are pretty much useless, so I rely on the same Link product TT probably used to have - a Link 20. It seems to count Ah used accurately enough for me to see when the bank should be recharged and when it is full.

Regarding the Smart Gauge, if one actually wired one up as opposed to doing Google searches so as to pose as an expert, one would find that of course it is only measuring voltage since that is the only sensing/power connection made. It does some magic with what it does with that voltage measure, but that's the only data its got to work with.
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Old 11-27-2018, 01:10 AM   #46
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Just by plotting the voltage over time, I can guess the SOC to within 10%, and probably close to 5%. No AC spectrography required. I'm not disputing that the Smart Gage isn't that accurate, don't know. For me, providing one fairly useless number without any other information including how it arrived at that number, isn't something I'm interested in, I'd put the money towards something with richer data and nothing hidden under the covers. All of the 'problems' that the Smart Gage is supposed to solve over a good AH counter aren't problems for me, and it introduces several of its own.

Lithium batteries are a whole different animal, the Smart Gage doesn't claim to work with them, and they require a very different level of management.
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Old 11-27-2018, 07:09 AM   #47
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Gibbo has specifically stated SG only works with lead.

Thus for LFP you must use a coulomb counting type.

And such a SoC meter is more critical with LFP, voltage is even less useful than with a lead bank.

For longevity you really want to stay in the flatter middle area of the voltage chart, while by the time you get useful V changes you are likely to be hitting the shoulders, especially at high C rates.

Balmar's new SG200 apparently incorporates (and integrates) both technologies, they claim can work with LFP, but too new to know its accuracy performance yet even with lead.
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Old 11-27-2018, 11:43 AM   #48
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laughably false, please do not make such statements about something on which you obviously have not even done basic research

the very sophisticated technology Gibbo incorporated into SG is indeed obscure and proprietary

however just because we do not understand exactly **how** it works

does not have any bearing on how well it works
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Gibbo has specifically stated SG only works with lead.

Thus for LFP you must use a coulomb counting type.

And such a SoC meter is more critical with LFP, voltage is even less useful than with a lead bank.

For longevity you really want to stay in the flatter middle area of the voltage chart, while by the time you get useful V changes you are likely to be hitting the shoulders, especially at high C rates.

Balmar's new SG200 apparently incorporates (and integrates) both technologies, they claim can work with LFP, but too new to know its accuracy performance yet even with lead.

How, praytell, do you plan to analyze its accuracy performance?

Please leave the electrical advice to those here with vast electrical experience. Your armchair expertise can be misleading at best, dangerous at worst.
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Old 11-27-2018, 05:31 PM   #49
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Remarkable how similar that is, to your declining multiple requests to tell us the source and experience behind your self asserted expertise.
He's an enigma for sure. You guys just can't stand it!
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Old 11-27-2018, 06:01 PM   #50
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From Webster's....

Definition of enigma
1 : something hard to understand or explain
2 : an inscrutable or mysterious person
3 : an obscure speech or writing


Not for me, live long enough and observe people...they generally fall into patterns.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:03 PM   #51
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How, praytell, do you plan to analyze its accuracy performance?

Please leave the electrical advice to those here with vast electrical experience. Your armchair expertise can be misleading at best, dangerous at worst.
Count your blessings. He has almost 8,000 posts in a couple of years on the sister site, plus thousands more on other non marine related forums.
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Old 11-27-2018, 08:44 PM   #52
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He's an enigma for sure. You guys just can't stand it!
On current information,"Enigma" is not a word I`d choose.
It`s not a question of 'can`t stand it". I usually value technical opinions expressed on TF. With most people of expertise on TF,there is no secrecy about their experience and professionalism, it`s easy to consider their advice and opinion and give it appropriate weight.
In the face of refusal to disclose experience and professionalism,and taking into account some opinions expressed so far, I cannot rate the advice and opinion as of value. It may be of value, but on present information I cannot assign it positive value. Would it was otherwise. And it is so easily resolved.
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Old 11-28-2018, 05:28 AM   #53
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My thoughts are,vif you are going to cut and paste some "known to be reliable' advice or info...then just do it with a link or reference,.

Commenting on it usually only has value if one has nearly equal experience or at least one real world experience to go along with it.

Then to expound on all this book gained knowledge,vand argue with those that are actually sitting at anchor, and have been on and off for decades, actually using real world battery banks with real world maintenance and costs to factor in.... Well....that's my take on it all....

But just to be clear...just because someone has been doing something forever doesn't make it right or they know squat....they do have to show some level of competence.
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Old 11-28-2018, 08:42 AM   #54
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I have the smart gauge

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
That does work well for most chemistries, but not so for Lithium. Voltage readings are pretty much useless, so I rely on the same Link product TT probably used to have - a Link 20. It seems to count Ah used accurately enough for me to see when the bank should be recharged and when it is full.

Regarding the Smart Gauge, if one actually wired one up as opposed to doing Google searches so as to pose as an expert, one would find that of course it is only measuring voltage since that is the only sensing/power connection made. It does some magic with what it does with that voltage measure, but that's the only data its got to work with.
I use it on the house bank AGM batteries. I find it to be usefull. I can't tell you how accurate without having a standard against which to compare it. The only downside i can think of is that it does not tell you how fast you are recharging. I can see how many amps the charging system is providing, but don't really know what that means to the batteries.

I have a friend who has a link 10 system and the smart gauge. He thinks the smart gauge is more accurate on tracking the SOC.

Gordon
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Old 11-28-2018, 01:14 PM   #55
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I have a friend who has a link 10 system and the smart gauge. He thinks the smart gauge is more accurate on tracking the SOC.

Gordon
FWIW I also have both the Smart Gauge and the Blue Seas M2 DC SoC Monitor which I added so I could see the rate of charge & discharge. I also feel the Smart Gauge is more accurate.
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Old 11-28-2018, 03:50 PM   #56
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I find the Magnum BMKs (yes, two of them) to be quite useful for many things, including:
    • Monitoring the house bank charging rate (voltage, amps and SOC ) when cruising with genset off.
    • Voltage when going from absorb to float
    • Amps being used when at anchor - finding at times the wrong stuff left running
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Old 11-28-2018, 05:22 PM   #57
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Magnum actually lets you control the transition to Float (end of shore charging) based directly off the BM-measured bank acceptance rate trailing down to mfg spec'd endAmps.

Much better than having to re-calibrate Absorb Hold Time settings as weather / usage patterns change.

Maybe 4-8 such setups exist on the solar side, but I think now unique to Magnum for mains charging?

Apparently Victron eliminated its gear's ability to do that with recent firmware updates?
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Old 11-28-2018, 05:48 PM   #58
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1. Magnum actually lets you control the transition to Float (end of shore charging) based directly off the BM-measured bank acceptance rate trailing down to mfg spec'd endAmps.

2. Much better than having to re-calibrate Absorb Hold Time settings as weather / usage patterns change.

3. Maybe 4-8 such setups exist on the solar side, but I think now unique to Magnum for mains charging?

4. Apparently Victron eliminated its gear's ability to do that with recent firmware updates?
I added numbers for reference.

Could you explain #1? Are you saying the SOC meter controls the charger?

2. Who is reprogramming their SOC meter as weather or usage patterns change? Why would one need to do that?

3. What do you mean by this question? I can't make sense of it.

4. Are you asking us to confirm the year Victron updated their software? And, as a matter of conversation, why do we care when or IF Victron updated their firmware software? Is this in any way helpful to the OP?

Please tell us about your experience or expertise to help us to know if the words you type come from someone who KNOWS what he is talking about. We have many folks here looking for valid, trusted information. Many of your posts display a lack of basic understanding of electricity or communication. Our members deserve to know who is providing this electrical advice.

One last request...I wish you'd read your posts before posting.
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Old 11-28-2018, 08:27 PM   #59
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I use it on the house bank AGM batteries. I find it to be usefull. I can't tell you how accurate without having a standard against which to compare it. The only downside i can think of is that it does not tell you how fast you are recharging. I can see how many amps the charging system is providing, but don't really know what that means to the batteries.

I have a friend who has a link 10 system and the smart gauge. He thinks the smart gauge is more accurate on tracking the SOC.

Gordon
I installed a Smart Gauge to monitor the starter bank, and it is nice to see an accurate SoC. Problem is, when it says the battery is at 100%, one has to ask 100% of what? A diminished lead acid battery that now has 70% capacity will still show 100% with the SG. Yes, one can do a 20 hour test, but that is a pain. A coulomb counter like the Link 20 gives you the other half of the information needed, which is how many Ah were used to get to 60% SoC.
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Old 11-28-2018, 08:46 PM   #60
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Codger Nailed it. Don't waste money on anything else.

In fact, how many of you ever look at the volts or amperage on your cars? NOBODY uses them to troubleshoot anymore. The car runs until it doesn't. On a boat, after finding out from the manufacturer the characteristics of YOUR batteries, the volt meter is all you need.



Victron 702 for us.
I monitor amps in and out, state of charge, AH used and voltage several times a day. (Walk past, press buttons, OK, move along)
There is no shore power or automobile club roadside assist as backup when cruising and living on the hook.
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