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Old 11-23-2018, 05:57 PM   #21
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"Install an SoC" is meaningless word salad.

Voltage level has very little to do with SoC if you are looking for accuracy.

My statement about most charge source regulators dropping to float prematurely is very easily verified with your own equipment, just requires an accurate ammeter at the bank to measure trailing amps, and a bit of patience.

Yes also true for very expensive fully adjustable gear, shore chargers, solar controllers etc, most people just leave at the defaults.

I don't want to argue about it, but if anyone asks for howto details I'm sure they'll get an answer.
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Old 11-23-2018, 06:01 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by cafesport View Post
Usually .005C in amps. Once you hit that with your charger you should be fully charged.
It does vary by batt model, but that's a good default if you can't find the spec.

> I’ve run three of he mentioned meters in this thread and my current preference is the victron but the new BMI 760.

I can't find that, the 712-BMV was my reco.

And yes actually running a 20-hour load test is the only accurate measure for SoC. Bit of a pain to get set up, but after that just tedious.
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Old 11-24-2018, 08:49 AM   #23
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"Install an SoC" is meaningless word salad.

Voltage level has very little to do with SoC if you are looking for accuracy.
I have a Maretron SOC system that tells me anything I want to know about my battery banks. The little SOC meters in the various circuits alert me to more serious problems.(At a glance!)
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Old 11-25-2018, 08:27 AM   #24
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I have the Maretron DC monitor on the house bank and have been super happy with it. I also have basic volt/amp displays on the panel. I love that I can check on battery SOC from almost every area of the boat as i have maretron displays in most of them. Also now have the system setup to email/text me if SOC gets too low.
On the starter batteries I just have simple amp/volt displays.
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Old 11-25-2018, 10:35 AM   #25
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I have the Maretron DC monitor on the house bank and have been super happy with it. I also have basic volt/amp displays on the panel. I love that I can check on battery SOC from almost every area of the boat as i have maretron displays in most of them. Also now have the system setup to email/text me if SOC gets too low.
On the starter batteries I just have simple amp/volt displays.
I couldn't agree more!
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Old 11-25-2018, 06:55 PM   #26
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Voltage does not correspond to SoC without an **isolated** resting period, often 24hrs but sometimes 72.

Even then the correspondence table is different for different types and even models by the same mfg.

And it changes over time as the bank ages, as does residual AH capacity.

I understand most don't care about accuracy, but for those that do, voltage is near useless.
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Old 11-26-2018, 08:58 AM   #27
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I understand most don't care about accuracy, but for those that do, voltage is near useless.
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:03 AM   #28
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And please do find a publication to regurgitate....
Don't you just love all the links and citing that are noted in today's internet world. Makes one an instant expert without even owning a boat where electrical things constantly don't behave!
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:32 AM   #29
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I understand most don't care about accuracy, but for those that do, voltage is near useless.
And yet, that is all the Balmar SOC meter uses.

If you are technically naive and wish to stay that way, then an SOC meter will be your friend. CMS' main argument for them is on that basis. Armed with a bit of knowledge, an amp counter gives you much more information about what is happening with your system and batteries. The SOC meter is a guess, not a measurement, and says little about the condition of the batteries. New batteries will be 100% when fully charged and 50% when half discharged. Old batteries will be 100% when fully charged, and 50% when half discharged. What did I learn from that?

I have two amp counters (Mastervolt and Blue Sky) and they track quite accurately for a number of charge/discharge cycles. After 10 or so they are beginning to get off by a few percent, but with AGMs (and certainly on a power boat) they will and should be fully charged by then, which resets the integrator.

In a different system, I have a Magnum amp counter, I disconnected and abandon it as it was quite inaccurate. Often you get what you pay for.
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Old 11-26-2018, 10:44 AM   #30
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I had a brain fart on that victron sensor model, it’s actually a BMV 712 Smart sensor. As I mentioned earlier my capacity testing revealed a bad battery. First thing I did was charge it fully then disconnect it for 30 hours. The Resting OC Voltage was in spec but it was the SOC behavior and recharge amp numbers indicated that something was wrong. Remember as John points out those voltage soc charts supplied by battery manufacturers are for open circuit (no load), resting voltage at standard temperature (68F). The victron is a cheap simple solution that works better than most and is very programmable. I removed a linksys put the Balmar on the dink and never even look at the screens for the mastervolt or magnum. With an iPhone can see and program the bmv from anywhere on the boat.
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Old 11-26-2018, 11:25 AM   #31
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And yet, that is all the Balmar SOC meter uses.
laughably false, please do not make such statements about something on which you obviously have not even done basic research

the very sophisticated technology Gibbo incorporated into SG is indeed obscure and proprietary

however just because we do not understand exactly **how** it works

does not have any bearing on how well it works
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Old 11-26-2018, 11:28 AM   #32
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SOC meter is a guess, not a measurement, and says little about the condition of the batteries.
True for all BMs

Yes the AH info is very valuable, and **if** you set & maintain it properly, many of that type can do a decent job.

Some owners prefer to use both.
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:27 PM   #33
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laughably false, please do not make such statements about something on which you obviously have not even done basic research

the very sophisticated technology Gibbo incorporated into SG is indeed obscure and proprietary

however just because we do not understand exactly **how** it works

does not have any bearing on how well it works

Not judging how well or not well the SmartGauge works, but a quick look at how it hooks up confirms that all it's measuring is battery voltage.
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:44 PM   #34
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laughably false, please do not make such statements about something on which you obviously have not even done basic research

the very sophisticated technology Gibbo incorporated into SG is indeed obscure and proprietary

however just because we do not understand exactly **how** it works

does not have any bearing on how well it works
Pray tell, what does it measure other than voltage? Not current, it hasn't the means. Not hydrometry. Not temperature. Perhaps mind reading? Yes, someone does need to do basic research before posting.

It is factually true that all it can measure is voltage. How it guesses SOC from those measurements may be proprietary. I can guess SOC pretty well myself from voltage.
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:45 PM   #35
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For years I had a Link something-or-other Ah counter. It worked fine, as long as all the settings are right, you return to full charge on a reasonable frequency, and you adjust the settings as the battery ages. The down side is that you tend to take the reading as gospel, and it can be quite wrong at times.


For the past 10 years, both on land and on boats, I've just used voltage and amps. It's not super precise, but close enough. You need to get a feel for how voltage sags or rises based on current, and you need to get a feel for voltage with whatever your background load level is, but that load level is typically quite small relative to the bank capacity. Mine is about 0.02C. With a little experience it works just fine.


I hear over and over again about how voltage is a poor SOC indicator unless the battery has zero load and has been resting for hours and hours. In my experience that's total hogwash. Maybe if you are running a forklift or other heavy load it would matter more, but I have consistently seen voltages recover within minutes, not hours. And if you are accurate to within a tenth of a volt or so, you will know the SOC to within 10% or so. Close enough to know whether it's time to start the generator.


And on recharge, just watch the voltage and the return current and you will know if you are fully charged.
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Old 11-26-2018, 01:55 PM   #36
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^^ This is the little bit of knowledge I spoke of. It isn't difficult to acquire, if you pay attention even a little. If you don't want to do that, then having the Balmar guess for you is better than no information at all.
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Old 11-26-2018, 06:04 PM   #37
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Pray tell, what does it measure other than voltage? Not current, it hasn't the means. Not hydrometry. Not temperature. Perhaps mind reading? Yes, someone does need to do basic research before posting.

It is factually true that all it can measure is voltage. How it guesses SOC from those measurements may be proprietary. I can guess SOC pretty well myself from voltage.

I agree that the Smart Gauge must only use battery voltage to make a determination of SOC. As someone that IS an electrical idiot, I like the idea that the SG uses some sort of deep dark magic to take those continuing voltage readings and eventually some up with an estimate of SOC that is likely going to be better than my amp counter over the years.



What the SG doesn't do is simply take a snapshot of the battery voltage and return a SOC% from a look-up table. That is all that I could do with voltage meter.


I am the intended market for the Smart Gauge. I'm just barely smart enough to want to get the best long term performance from my house bank, but not smart enough to be able to continually adjust the settings in my amp counter to reflect the true capacity of my battery bank every year. As I've said before, I'd like to have one to add to my amp counter. I'll do it someday.
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Old 11-26-2018, 07:45 PM   #38
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For years I had a Link something-or-other Ah counter. It worked fine, as long as all the settings are right, you return to full charge on a reasonable frequency, and you adjust the settings as the battery ages. The down side is that you tend to take the reading as gospel, and it can be quite wrong at times.

For the past 10 years, both on land and on boats, I've just used voltage and amps. It's not super precise, but close enough. You need to get a feel for how voltage sags or rises based on current, and you need to get a feel for voltage with whatever your background load level is, but that load level is typically quite small relative to the bank capacity. Mine is about 0.02C. With a little experience it works just fine.

I hear over and over again about how voltage is a poor SOC indicator unless the battery has zero load and has been resting for hours and hours. In my experience that's total hogwash. Maybe if you are running a forklift or other heavy load it would matter more, but I have consistently seen voltages recover within minutes, not hours. And if you are accurate to within a tenth of a volt or so, you will know the SOC to within 10% or so. Close enough to know whether it's time to start the generator.

And on recharge, just watch the voltage and the return current and you will know if you are fully charged.


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^^ This is the little bit of knowledge I spoke of. It isn't difficult to acquire, if you pay attention even a little. If you don't want to do that, then having the Balmar guess for you is better than no information at all.

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Old 11-26-2018, 07:45 PM   #39
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That is exactly CMS' argument for the Smart Gage, and a valid one. What TT and I are doing is interpreting the instantaneous voltage with some knowledge of the history, I'm quite sure the Smart Gage is just a formally developed algorithm doing the same thing. That's all it can do, because that is all the information it has. With additional knowledge of load (provided by the amp meter) the algorithm can be improved. I don't consider SOC to be a very useful number in how I manage the boat - but in different circumstances for different owners, it might be.
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Old 11-26-2018, 08:27 PM   #40
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Codger Nailed it. Don't waste money on anything else.

In fact, how many of you ever look at the volts or amperage on your cars? NOBODY uses them to troubleshoot anymore. The car runs until it doesn't. On a boat, after finding out from the manufacturer the characteristics of YOUR batteries, the volt meter is all you need.
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