Battery Conundrum

[AlaskaProf]

Charged overnight at LaConner Tue., and made the ten-hour run to Tacoma without further incident. Spent some hours plumbing the depths of my ignorance. Call to previous owner reveals that batteries are nine years old, installed when system was modernized. Beyond that, he understands less than I do, if that is possible.

First question I want to throw out there is: Why do I have both of these?

 

[KnotYet]

Charged overnight at LaConner Tue., and made the ten-hour run to Tacoma without further incident. Spent some hours plumbing the depths of my ignorance. Call to previous owner reveals that batteries are nine years old, installed when system was modernized. Beyond that, he understands less than I do, if that is possible.

First question I want to throw out there is: Why do I have both of these?

Do you still have both inverter/chargers? Is one of them not an inverter?

 

[AlaskaProf]

Do you still have both inverter/chargers? Is one of them not an inverter?

In short: beats the s**t out'a me.

There is a big Magnasync box wired into the system. I recognize the Heart as first generation tech, and I've always ignored it, assumed someone just wired through it, but recent events have forced me to be more critical of my assumptions. For example, both indicators are mounted in a nice teak box, obviously built to house both. (?). Why?

I dont know if there was a separate Heart box, but I dont see one now.

 

[Comodave]

We always carry a jump pack just in case. Cheap insurance. We have unlimited towing and service with Boat/US so we could get a free jump start but I don’t want to wait several hours possibly. This way I can jump start my engines if need be and do it immediately.

 

[KnotYet]

In short: beats the s**t out'a me.

There is a big Magnasync box wired into the system. I recognize the Heart as first generation tech, and I've always ignored it, assumed someone just wired through it, but recent events have forced me to be more critical of my assumptions. For example, both indicators are mounted in a nice teak box, obviously built to house both. (?). Why?

I dont know if there was a separate Heart box, but I dont see one now.

If the Heart inverter was removed maybe they kept the indicator as a standalone.

 

[AlaskaProf]

We always carry a jump pack just in case. Cheap insurance. We have unlimited towing and service with Boat/US so we could get a free jump start but I don’t want to wait several hours possibly. This way I can jump start my engines if need be and do it immediately.

That's the lesson I learned when the gentleman from Boat US came aboard with his little $100 box. Shopping now, won't "leave home without it."

got a brand to recommend?

Obviously I need a full round of new batteries, but a hundred dollars of insurance is compelling.

 

[AlaskaProf]

If the Heart inverter was removed maybe they kept the indicator as a standalone.

So far, the only thing it is providing is confusion. For example, I am currently at dockside NOT plugged in to shore power. Magna indicator shows expected steady decline in dc voltage.

Heart shows same decline, same on both banks, even though one bank is turned to OFF.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I would start to trace battery cabling out and account for all connections to each bank. I suspect you might find the banks are paralleled in spite of the switch connection. If the banks are separate when not paralleled through the switch the voltages should be different with the house load running. If the voltages are the same then likely there is another parallel connection.
Tom

The deeper i research, The closer it comes to your description. Thanx

 

[Comodave]

Sorry, I don’t know what brand mine is. It is on the boat and I am too exhausted to open the boat up tonight. We have been building a storage shed for most of the week and are wiped out.

 

[Art]

I have 6 batts aboard. 1 batt in runabout.

1 starter batt: Specifically for gen set only. Charged by solar and/or float/trickle charger that is on whenever 120V breaker is on; powered by either shore or gen set.

4 deep cycle batts: House bank and engine starter. Charged by starboard engine alternator or 60 amp boat charger that functions when 120V is available and its own breaker is on.

1 isolated starter batt: Sits fully charged in its own black box, for any need that may arise. Charged by float/trickle charger whenever 120V breaker is on.

1 starter batt: In our tow behind o/b runabout. Can be used as a stand in if needed.

Over the last 12 years: Isolated starter batt has been used for failed batt in gen set and in the runabout. It is always replaced before using boats again.

Simple ways to not run out of batt energy at affordable cost!

 

[FF]

11.66v is only 20% of charged 80% is gone .


Not what a battery should show just sitting.

 

[AlaskaProf]

11.66v is only 20% of charged 80% is gone .


Not what a battery should show just sitting.

No question. Especially after yesterday's chat with the previous owner confirmed the age of the batteries. Current effort focused on understanding the system to assure that it is optimized before i decide what batteries to buy.

 

[AlaskaProf]

Over the last 12 years: Isolated starter batt has been used for failed batt in gen set and in the runabout. It is always replaced before using boats again.

Simple ways to not run out of batt energy at affordable cost!

Outstanding advice. My Bullfrog motor launch has a nearly new 12v battery. If i'd been thinking clearly I might have saved myself a $500 visit by BoatUS.

 

[Scottwb96]

Since you are in the area, thought this might be helpful. Battery Systems in Seattle has the King County contract for the motorpool. They have the Odyssey PC2150 AGM's that are either 1 or 2 years old. If you go in, you can usually get them for about $100 apiece ($400 brand new).
I now have 8 of them in my boat. Even through one in the tender when that one needed changing this year. Been great for me...

 

[Art]

Since you are in the area, thought this might be helpful. Battery Systems in Seattle has the King County contract for the motorpool. They have the Odyssey PC2150 AGM's that are either 1 or 2 years old. If you go in, you can usually get them for about $100 apiece ($400 brand new).
I now have 8 of them in my boat. Even through one in the tender when that one needed changing this year. Been great for me...

Seems heck of a good deal!

 

[Art]

Outstanding advice. My Bullfrog motor launch has a nearly new 12v battery. If i'd been thinking clearly I might have saved myself a $500 visit by BoatUS.

In addition to ample "spare" batts... have a good pair of jumper cables too. Therefrom may be no need to disconnect/connect terminals,

 

[AlaskaProf]

sho

In addition to ample "spare" batts... have a good pair of jumper cables too. Therefrom may be no need to disconnect/connect terminals,

I am presently shopping for a jumper pack incorporating cables and big clamps like the BoatUS guy had.

 

[Comodave]

This is what I have. It will start my SP225 Lehmans in our boat and the Cummins 6BT in our motorhome. No affiliation.

 

[AlaskaProf]

This is what I have. It will start my SP225 Lehmans in our boat and the Cummins 6BT in our motorhome. No affiliation.

Been looking at that one. Don't know what is sufficient for my 10 liter Cats. Same firm makes a bigger unit (for twice the price, of course).

Maybe I'll call the Boat US guy in Friday Harbor...

 

[fractalphreak]

As you consider what it means to optimize your system, consider some of the technology available that can help manage battery bank charging, and your allocation of batteries to tasks.

I think we lucked out when we purchased NWD. I did not really have a full working knowledge of ACR's/current isolator technology at the time. I think I would have purchased her with battery switches or what she has installed regardless, if I and the surveyor both felt the system was installed properly and safely.

As it turns out, the system she does have appears to be automatic and (almost) bullet proof. We have a Xantrex automatic charge relay that only combines our house and start banks when charging is happening, whether it is from our AC charger or the alternators. The Xantrex ACR is designed to handle high amp charging in case the start battery is low. I have a small remote panel for it at the main helm that indicates when it switches on, and has a manual combiner switch. Further, the start battery side of the ACR is connected to a smaller combiner that works on the same principle called a digital echo charger - it will only charge at 10 amps and is used to charge/trickle our generator start battery.

Our engine start battery (we have one largish one for both Lehmans) is only connected to the starters and the automatic charge relays. Nothing else. Those relays only open when charge voltage is present. So that start battery only has its one job and never gets taxed or the potential for accidental drain down.

The generator start battery - same story. It is connected to the generator and its digital echo charger, Nothing else.

The Xantrex has a manual override switch that I can use to manually combine the house and start batteries if for some reason the start battery could not do its job.

All charging connects to the house banks, as those are the most likely needing massive charge amps. So the alternator charge, AC charger (when we add it solar charge) all go to the house bank.

I misspoke - we do also have a voltage/current monitor that is connected to all three batteries (house, engine start, generator start) that I can use to check their voltage. I'm not sure that has much draw on the batteries if any.

The one component that is NOT bulletproof in the system are the electronic devices that are the ACRs. If the main one were to fail, my start battery would not charge, and I likely would not be able to use the manual override to connect the house and start batteries. I do not (yet) have a "physical" backup solution to this installed or on board. I DO have a physical extra battery (in the guise of the generator start battery) that with a few minutes and tools I could use to start the Lehmans in an emergency once or twice.

I must say, after 14 years of using 1/2/both switch to manage charge/use 2 identical battery banks in our old boat, the ACR with the single large bank and dedicated start battery is NICE. It forced me to learn a lot about larger battery systems! Going back to my opening comment about allocating batteries to tasks, I have relatively little Ah's of battery allocated to engine starting - probably 250 total between engine start and generator start. But we have a lot of Ah's allocated to house batteries, to keep us running at anchor without a lot of generator use and to give the house bank an unstressed life. From that perspective the old identical pair/duplicate backup battery system I had on our 30 ft powerboat just doesn't make sense, so a 1/2/both system would never work for this type of setup.

 

[Art]

This is what I have. It will start my SP225 Lehmans in our boat and the Cummins 6BT in our motorhome. No affiliation.

Regarding batt jumper boxes... here's quote from your's instructions.

"... To ensure trouble-free use, please remember to recharge the unit for 24 hours at least once every 3 months during the winter, and monthly during the summer."

Otherwise - Batt jumper box might not have ample power-stored when needed.

Isolated [emergency] starter batt I keep on boat is always 100% charged. Don't have to think about it. No muss, no fuss!

 

[Comodave]

Yes, I put it on to charge every couple of months. So far it hasn’t ever let me down.

 

[Art]

Yes, I put it on to charge every couple of months. So far it hasn’t ever let me down.

How many times in last decade did you need to use it?

 

[Comodave]

Well, I have not owned it for a decade, but I have used it on 3 occasions in the last 4 years. I also use it for a portable 12 volt source. I have loaned it out 4 times to a neighbor that didn’t have a working battery charger in his boat. So I guess it has been worth the money spent. I have Boat/US towing but have never used it. Having the jumper pack has saved me quite a few hours that I would have waited for Boat/US to respond since the nearest provider is at least an hour away if they are not currently busy. Besides I do like to be self sufficient if at all possible.

 

[Art]

Well, I have not owned it for a decade, but I have used it on 3 occasions in the last 4 years. I also use it for a portable 12 volt source. I have loaned it out 4 times to a neighbor that didn’t have a working battery charger in his boat. So I guess it has been worth the money spent. I have Boat/US towing but have never used it. Having the jumper pack has saved me quite a few hours that I would have waited for Boat/US to respond since the nearest provider is at least an hour away if they are not currently busy. Besides I do like to be self sufficient if at all possible.

 

[JDCAVE]

9 years on battery banks is as good as you could expect, particularly if you don’t have a means of keeping them charged when at anchor. It’s time to replace them.

Quite frankly, I don’t see the need for a jumper pack. I’d direct your efforts towards optimizing the design of a new battery configuration and paying attention to battery health.

There were comments earlier like 12.3 volts is essentially a dead battery. It’s not necessarily, as voltages will drop somewhat depending on the size of the real-time loads.

My thoughts.

1) Your starter bank should be fully isolated from the house bank. Ensure this is so. This bank should be sized sufficient to start both engines. I see no need for a separate battery for each engine. Nor do I see the need for an 8D. I have 2 Group 24s in parallel for my Lehman 135. More than sufficient. A Group 31 would also be fine.

2) seriously consider a solar bank in the absence of a generator. Properly sized, it may even get you up to float charge after travel.

3) optimize the size your new house bank based on understanding the daily total amp hours used. Ideally your house bank should be twice the size of 2 days amp hours of usage, if you would want to be at anchor for 2 days.

4) check all connections, replace older cabling, and review whether the current cabling is optimized for charging and discharge.

5) review CMS’s site. Really good stuff here:
https://marinehowto.com

6) bring in an electrician to review what you intend to do, or actually do the work.

7) I am always reviewing the Magnum panel throughout the day. Over the years with the same bank, I have a pretty good idea how it is aging. I now have 7 summers of cruising on it, with pretty extensive usage. The voltages are beginning to get lower before mornings charging and are consuming more and more water. I will replace the batteries before next years cruising season.

Jim

 

[FF]

. "Current effort focused on understanding the system to assure that it is optimized before i decide what batteries to buy."

Before new batts its time for a state of charge (SOC) meter.

This is a gas gauge for the batts and will keep you from over discharging.

$150 + but worth the effort.

 

[Portage_Bay]

You're running 10 liter Cats? Twin 3208s?

I must say that Rich pulled me up short when he mentioned the fuel cut-off solenoids, as i hadnt considered this only part of a running diesel engine which requires electricity, but once we got them started, they ran just fine.

On your Cats do they shut down by turning the key off? Or by pressing a "stop" button? If by turning the key off then you have an energize to run setup. Meaning a solenoid must be pulled in all the time to keep the engine running. I've measured the current draw on mine, it's 7 AMPS! That's important when you look at underway loads vs charging capacity.

Been looking at that one. Don't know what is sufficient for my 10 liter Cats.

"That one" is the jump pack Comodave shows in post #48

Regarding jump packs and starting 3208s. If you have truly run your starting capacity flat then Comodave's jump pack may not be enough. 3208s are generally quick to start, barely turn them over and they light off. But not always! They are bigger iron than Lehamns and Cummins 6BT and take more power to crank. Have a look at your starters and you'll see what I'm talking about. They're big and bulky for a reason. I'm not trying talk you out of a jump pack, just cautioning that it may not be big enough.

I don't claim to know as much as many of the other posters in this thread, and I'll start off by making some assumptions here. You have the OEM alternators, 55 AMPs internally regulated? If yes, read on.

With the OEM alts you likely have a system where port alt charges one bank, stbd alt the other.

Alternator output

• 55 AMPs max alt output
• 40 AMPs is about all it can do at my typical cruise speed, usually less. At the lower quieter engine speeds which we like mid to upper 20s is all I see.

Normal underway DC loads

• 7 AMPs to hold the fuel solenoid open
• 8 AMPs intermittent for the refer
• ?? AMPs to run navigation electronics and VHFs. I have a radar, I use it. They tend to be a big draw.

It's easy to see that normal running I'm consuming the lion's share of the alternator's output just to run the systems. Not much left for charging.

Additional DC loads depending upon how the boat will be used on that cruise

• Inverter. AMPs varies with load
• Hurricane hydronic heater
• Additional plug in cooler on deck

Now I've gotten to the point that the load on the DC systems could well be higher than the alternator output and I'm loosing ground underway. I left the home dock with batts @ 100% and arrive at anchorage with batts already drawn down depending upon loads and running time.

I'm considering upgrading to 105 AMP externally regulated alternators with either the Balmar Centerfielder or the Wakespeed WS500. Either of which will combine the two alternators into a single double capacity output to push a lot more juice in the batts when underway.

I would like to have a setup like yours, two big banks, no gen. I'd also have a dedicated start bank. In addition I'd pack a portable gen for emergency use. Maybe a Honda eu2200i with the adapter to run on propane. Between RIB gas and galley propane I should always have enough fuel to run the gen long enough to get a charge into the start bank.

 

[AlaskaProf]

You're running 10 liter Cats? Twin 3208s?

Twin 3106s with 3200 hours on rebuild. They are remarkably quick starting.

On your Cats do they shut down by turning the key off?... I've measured the current draw on mine, it's 7 AMPS!

That is startling.

Regarding jump packs and starting 3208s. If you have truly run your starting capacity flat then Comodave's jump pack may not be enough. ... I'm not trying talk you out of a jump pack, just cautioning that it may not be big enough.

I still favor the jump pack solution, especially after watching the BoatUS guy start both my engines with his. I just need to ensure I get the right size. Clearly, this is the case where bigger is better.

I think Art and I are actually in "violent agreement" on this point. The better packs have built in charger, regulator, meter and appropriate cords. As my engine room has AC outlets, I think it will resemble his dedicated spare battery.

...and I'll start off by making some assumptions here. You have the OEM alternators, 55 AMPs internally regulated? If yes, read on.

With the OEM alts you likely have a system where port alt charges one bank, stbd alt the other.

Nope.

Dual Balmar alternators, 70 or 100 amp each (I'm not at the boat right now to check, home in Ashland with other issues )

External Balmar612 regulators, each serving one bank, but the banks can be swapped through the big red switches.

Normal underway DC loads

• 7 AMPs to hold the fuel solenoid open
• 8 AMPs intermittent for the refer
• ?? AMPs to run navigation electronics and VHFs. I have a radar, I use it. They tend to be a big draw.

• Hurricane hydronic heater
• Additional plug in cooler on deck

Similar loads

Nav program runs on a laptop and my Big Bay 1000nit monitor pulls 9amps
AIS, RADAR, couple GPS, depth finder


no drain items:

cabin heat is diesel drip with Seebeck fan,
On-deck cooler is ice chest.
Cooking is Wallas diesel.

I would like to have a setup like yours, two big banks, no gen. I'd also have a dedicated start bank.

I still like my current setup, with the addition of a backup start capacity. This whole conversation began because 1. I ignored all the signs that my batteries were failing from old age. 2. I suspect that my two banks are not "isolate-able" from each other, permitting me to use one and "save" the other, as I was briefed.

Issue one is remedied by throwing money at it, which I will do before I leave the marina again.
Issue two requires more sophistication than I command, but I will find someone who can tell me what is true.

 

[Duvie]

Solar brand

The only jump pack I will buy is Solar brand. They make a couple different sizes. We keep one in the guard shack at my work. We have about 500 employees so the need for a jump start comes up about half a dozen times a year. First Solar pack lasted seven years. We are on about year 4 of our 2nd Solar brand jump pack.

For a couple years I used a Solar brand pack as a power supply for my inflatable. The inflatable motor was small and did not have any charging system. I used the pack to run the nav lights, fish finder and portable live well for fishing. Of course I had to take it home to charge it after every use so that I did not kill it.

Bought a different brand that was about half the cost once. It lasted 6 months.