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Old 12-07-2020, 09:14 AM   #21
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I also doubt it is the charger. Without a scope to look at the waveform and otherwise poke around, I can just guess. But, my wild guess would be a failing excitation capacitor on the generator. It can mess with the voltage waveform in a way that might possibly go away under heavy load and then stay gone until the load drops much lower.

You may want to call Next Gen and chat about that possibility. These caps aren't normally too expensive and relatively easy to swap (just be careful -- caps store charge, so can zap.)

If you are familiar and brave, you can also pull it and use the RC time constant to give you a way to check it using a 12V source and high ohm resistor, or some meters have a test built in.
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Old 12-07-2020, 03:52 PM   #22
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Without going into too much detail the next gen output is let’s say a little dirty. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It has to do with the generating head and it’s simplicity. That’s a good thing. I sell many 3.5 units and sometimes this situation comes up. I sold one to a marina . The buyer loved it but could not get his microwave to work. It worked off dock side but not gen side. It was the input to the power supply that would not trigger the key pad to work. He had to buy a different microwave. He has over 2000 hours trouble free on it now.
Your situation is similar. Just try a different make charger.
Other make generators over come this with 4 pole heads, circuit charge, voltage regulator. Now you have complexity. The only thing that could fail on a Next-gen is a Capacitor. That’s it.
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Old 12-11-2020, 01:15 PM   #23
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hi,

we had a similar problem when our boat went to survey. charger would run on shore but not nextgen 3.5. turned out to be genset output voltage was set to 135v. you adjust the voltage by adjusting (shorten or lengthen...don't remember) the fuel linkage rod which connects the fuel run solenoid to injection pump. it is horizontal in the center of engine. fuel solenoid is on left. i set unloaded voltage to 125 and loaded it drops to about 120.
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Old 12-11-2020, 03:46 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc View Post
Without going into too much detail the next gen output is let’s say a little dirty. That is not necessarily a bad thing. It has to do with the generating head and it’s simplicity. That’s a good thing. I sell many 3.5 units and sometimes this situation comes up. I sold one to a marina . The buyer loved it but could not get his microwave to work. It worked off dock side but not gen side. It was the input to the power supply that would not trigger the key pad to work. He had to buy a different microwave. He has over 2000 hours trouble free on it now.
Your situation is similar. Just try a different make charger.
Other make generators over come this with 4 pole heads, circuit charge, voltage regulator. Now you have complexity. The only thing that could fail on a Next-gen is a Capacitor. That’s it.

Humm, I think I'd be pretty upset if I had installed one of those generators. Perhaps that's what the OP should be looking to return to the manufacturer, and not the charger.
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Old 12-11-2020, 09:56 PM   #25
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Disconnect the output from the charger to the gen battery (I'm betting it is so). The charger is sensing the genset's alternator voltage on that battery.
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Old 12-11-2020, 11:43 PM   #26
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I would get a scope and look at the output waveform and voltage carefully. Without doing that you are just guessing.
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Old 12-12-2020, 12:18 PM   #27
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The ProMariner ProTech 1230iPlus battery charger is an older design, and it is possible that it was original equipment. The current ProMariner completable unit would be in the Pro Mariner, Pronautic series. This is a considerable upgrade from your current charger. In the same class are the Blue Seas, the Victron and the Mastervolt. All are going to be more expensive. A slightly less expensive, but still a good charger you can leave on all of the time is the NOCO Genius3 series 3 bank 30 amp. This has high frequency desulfation. The other advantage of the latest generation of battery chargers is that they will help the batteries last longer. You should not have any problem running any of these off the Next Gen generator. I have owned similar belt driven generators. They run at a lower RPM for the amount of power and cost. They are simple and generally rugged, easy to repair, but the power often was not as "clean" as others. You adjust the frequency by changing the speed on the Diesel engine. As long as every other 110 V system is running well, I would adjust the frequency so it is very close to 60 hz (the Kilo-Watt meter suggested earlier is an item which should be in very boater's kit.)
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Old 12-12-2020, 01:46 PM   #28
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OP should check my suggestion and report back before chasing any power quality issues and before buying anything.

My thumbs up to the Pro Nautic series chargers, I have recommended them for recreational and commercial customers for about 8 years and not seen one fail to perform excellently. I understand this charger was designed by Sterling Power in the UK. It is constructed differently than other Pro Mariner chargers that I've had a look inside of. I've never been a fan of PM but these are a different product from the rest of their line, at least so far.
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Old 12-12-2020, 08:12 PM   #29
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Thanks again for all the suggestions. I didn't get a chance to get to the boat and do some of the testing that you have suggested until today. As someone guessed the generator and battery charger both seem to be original equipment from 2002 or near that time, not something installed yesterday.

Today I took my Kill a Watt and my new clamp meter to the boat and tried some things. With no AC power from shore or generator I tried the clamp meter compared to the Balmar battery monitor and they were pretty close. For example with two radios, radar and refrigerator running the clamp on a battery cable said 8.16 amps and the Balmar said -8.3 amps. I tried several other load combinations and the two were pretty close all the time.

On shore power the Kill a Watt and multimeter read exactly as you would expect: 120VAC and 60.0 Hz. With the Next Gen I got 136VAC and 63.3 HZ from both. As the generator warmed up this dropped to 62.3 Hz but the voltage stayed at 136VAC. Turning on the water heater dropped the frequency to 61.8 Hz still at 136VAC. The battery charger would not send current to the batteries either measured at the battery with the clamp or voltage meter with the water heater on. When I turned off the water heater and started the air conditioner the battery charger starting putting out current at about +12 amps, again seen on both the clamp meter at the battery and Balmar meter. With the air conditioner on I was seeing 129VAC and 61.5Hz. The charger manual says that it works from 95 to 250VAC, so I the 129-136VAC should not be a problem.

I haven't found someone to loan me a scope to see what the waveform looks like but my inexpensive multimeter has trouble reading the frequency, flipping through many higher frequencies and only occasionally stabilizing on 62.xhz. The Kill a Watt is very stable with it's readings. Having the air conditioner on doesn't change the problems reading the frequency.

So I will talk with Next Gen on Monday about changing the capacitor. When I bought the boat the generator was not working and the replacing the capacitor solved that problem of output so maybe a newer or different capacitor will help. Failing that I will talk with Pro Mariner about the charger and see if they have any suggestions.

Thanks again!
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Old 12-12-2020, 08:17 PM   #30
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EngNate I will try your suggestion of disconnecting the charger output to the generator starting battery to see if this solves the problem. I didn't get time today since that battery is very hard to get to.

Thanks!
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Old 12-12-2020, 08:42 PM   #31
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Hatch- First thing is is to turn down the governor a bit to get 60hz with a normal ship's load. Right now the numbers indicate engine rpm is too high. And volts will be high too, as there is no voltage regulator on that machine.

Fair chance if you dial the rpm down, charger will be happy. Do that first.

Capacitor excited units like this don't have perfect wave forms, but should be good enough.
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Old 12-12-2020, 08:46 PM   #32
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What Ski said.
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Old 12-12-2020, 08:59 PM   #33
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I'm seconding EngNate's comment that the charger is sensing voltage from the gen-set's alternator...
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Old 12-12-2020, 09:38 PM   #34
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Hmm... Capacitor regulation is the cheapest, crappiest and least reliable method. A faulty capacitor - breaking down under voltage, would cause issues. It sounds like there are harmonics (frequency multiples) in the output and the multimeter has trouble settling on the predominant frequency. The Kill a Watt likely has a filtered range so doesn't have the issue. The engine speed is a bit too high and the no/low load voltage should come down when adjusted - 61.5 Hz no load, check that it is over 59 at 100% load.
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Old 12-13-2020, 06:38 AM   #35
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as i said in an earlier post, we had the same promariner charger and nextgen 3.5. no charger on genset, turned down rpms to get voltage below 130.

btw, nextgen has no alternator.

follow ski's advice
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Old 12-13-2020, 07:22 AM   #36
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The Nextgen 3.5 has no battery charging alternator. Only thing belt driven is the sea water pump (and main AC alternator). It could have a batt charging circuit imbedded in the main AC alternator as other units do, but I doubt it.

Adjust speed down.
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Old 12-13-2020, 08:17 AM   #37
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The 3.5 Nextgen has no battery charging circuit imbedded. Must use an external charger to keep battery charged.
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Old 12-14-2020, 10:31 AM   #38
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So I had a little time this morning to try removing the positive lead from the charger to the generator starting battery. That made sense to me and I had high hopes. But (drum roll!) it didn't make any difference. Still no charging! When I adjusted the throttle down on the motor to 60 Hz that didn't make any difference either, still no charge until I turned on the air conditioner. The AC and the water heater both drop the voltage about the same amount and they also reduce the frequency but only the AC allows the charger to run. Thanks again for your suggestions!
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Old 12-14-2020, 12:11 PM   #39
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Bummer.

When you turned the speed down to get 60hz, what were AC volts no load? What are AC volts with AC on?

Might be worth trying a new gen excitation capacitor. But usually when these act up unit won't make power or volts are way out of whack. Can get a cap from electrical/industrial/hvac/motor supply house for like 10-15 bucks.
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Old 12-14-2020, 12:46 PM   #40
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I still think an excitation cap is likely to fix the problem. I don't know next gens, but I just can't imagine making a unit so bad that a decent charger rejects it.

Having said that, if that doesn't work, you might /possibly/ be able to retrofit Flight Systems Model 480/Delco H3500 regulator onto it. It costs about $250.00. Ifbut comes to this, calling them would be the best bet. I don't know the gebset enough to guess
-- https://www.flightsystems.com/standb...er-basler.html

But, first check to make sure nothing is broken, i.e.check waveform with a scope, check or replace that cap, and tune to 60Hz under mid load or 62 Hz no load or whatever the manual says.

Just a thought.
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