Batteries

[ranger58sb]

Ranger
Not sure what East Penn reports for cycles. A quick check online or call to them I'm sure would poiny you to their specs.

Well, it was really just a casual question in case the answer would be useful for the audience. Mostly 'cause we just installed Lifeline GC2s earlier this season in the only place we have space for that kind of bank... so I'm not really in the market anymore.

I did do a quick check on East Penn/Deka Intimidator AGM website links first, though, here: http://www.eastpennmanufacturing.com/applications/marine/

But didn't find squat about cycle life. Closest they come to mentioning it is a a statement that says "2x the cycle life*" -- and the asterisk leads to a statement that says "Compared to conventional designs." That apparently applies to all their AGMs, not just the "deep cycle" models. Did see their AGM GC2 is rated at 190 Ah versus the 220 Ah Lifelines we bought.

FWIW, I'm speculating most of their 12V "deep cycle" AGMs are really intended for a dual-purpose market, given they list CCAs/MCAs for each in common starting battery BCI Groups (24, 27, 31, etc.)... and also given their only listed "dual purpose" AGM is a relatively tiny G34.

-Chris

 

[CMS]

I replaced the flooded cell batteries on my boat when they failed in 2012. I chose AGMs because properly maintaining the flooded cell batteries was very difficult because of their location in my boat.

I used Sears Die Hard Marine AGMs and they have performed reasonably well. especially considering that they were run down flat a couple times, but they seem to be nearing the end of their life. Anchoring overnight with the refrigerator, Chart Plotter and (LED) anchor light on, the voltage in the morning is 12 volts or less.

A thread on another forum mentioned "Lifeline" (brand) AGM batteries as being the "best" AGMs and of course their website claims the same. Surprisingly, they don't seem to be more expensive than the Sears batteries or West Marine batteries.

So, before I spend $1,200 or so on a set of (4) new batteries, does anyone here have experience with these batteries? Good, bad or indifferent?

Depending upon when you bought your Die Hard AGM's they may have actually been re-branded EnerSys / Odyssey TPPL AGM's. The Sears/Odyssey product usually had a light blue bottom of case & gray/whiteish top of case.

These were a true premium AGM battery at a very decent price. They actually cost less than my wholesale cost of an Odyssey but they sat too long on the shelf at our local Sears to bother with and were usually not "fresh" up here.

Today, due to the premium price tag of the Odyssey/EnerSys product, Sears has gone back to East Penn for AGM's. If you go with Sears AGM batteries again don't expect comparable life to your EnerSys made TPPL AGM's.

For PSOC use see the: Fighting Sulfation In AGM's - Practical Sailor May 2015

And

AGM Batteries Test Update - Practical Sailor August 2015

Brief points from the above linked testing...

• A) All batteries were treated exactly the same using lab grade test equipment and a temp controlled water-bath.

• B) They were discharged and charged as we often do on boats thus replicating real world use in a "lab like" environment for closer A to B comparisons.

• PSOC "capacity walk-down" begins as early as cycle #2 away from a full recharge.

• The Firefly Carbon Foam battery was the only AGM battery to survive the testing and recover all of its capacity. Other than the Lithium battery, which was used as a control or benchmark (unaffected by PSOC use), the Firefly came out on top. PS's caution as "new technology" is certainly within reason, and I agree with it. The PSOC data and abuse I have thrown at these batteries, still speaks rather strongly for the Firefly as a potential game changer for PSOC applications on cruising boats. Firefly has had a few manufacturing glitches, and supply/demand issues, but the battery technology is actually quite impressive at dealing with PSOC (partial state of charge) use. It is really the only 80% DOD lead acid battery I know of that can actually survive this sort of deep cycling in the real world not just in a lab..

• The way we use batteries on cruising boats is murder to them. Having a battery than can recover from the effects of sulfation could be a real game changer and far less complicated than LiFePO4.

• In just 30 cycles some of the AGM batteries lost between 7% and 30% of their total baseline tested Ah capacity.. Just 30 cycles.... In the real world those 30 cycles would have likely been even more punishing, especially in a hot climate. The Northstar Blue+ TPPL AGM, Odyssey TPPL AGM and Lifeline AGM all did okay in the testing but none as good as the Firefly. The East Penn data is what it is and it was the only battery in the test group that got a second chance.

After performing many, many, many hundreds of hours of battery testing I believe pretty strongly that that a typical deep cycle AGM battery (not all AGM's are actually deep cycle despite what the sticker may say) really need to get back to 100% SOC every 2nd or 3rd cycle for the best performance and longest cycle life. Ideally every cycle but that is simply not realistic unless you're in a lab

It should be noted that the effects of sulfation happen to all lead acid batteries, not just AGM. AGM batteries are just much easier to test and to show how we are murdering our banks by how we use and abuse them..

The Firefly, we know, can go 30 deep cycles, with full recovery, but I suspect a full recharge ever 7-15 days is more reasonable for that battery.

 

[rwidman]

......... a boat that lives on a pier requires a completely different set of parameters than one that spends most of its time away from the cord. .................

A boat that lives on a pier wouldn't really need batteries.

There are many ways to use a boat, even a trawler. Mine typically sits in a slip for months at a time and then goes out on a cruise for two to three months in the spring and then for two weeks in the fall. When cruising, it will run anywhere from three hours to twelve hours per day. One of three nights (on average) will be at anchor or a dock without electricity. The rest will be at marinas with shore power.

There's a lot of talk about "cycles". Unlike a golf cart or floor polisher, we don' run our boat's batteries until a light comes on saying "recharge", the boat is run (and the batteries charged) as needed by the people using the boat. Hopefully, one night at anchor isn't a complete discharge cycle and a day's running may or may not fully recharge the batteries.

So - How to we match the typical use to the battery specs or requirements?

 

[angus99]

Please don't be fooled by the "US Battery" logo, US Battery is the manufacturers name, not where their AGM batteries are made. At least on their new labeling, click your own link, they put "Made in China" in the lower left of the label. Other than that they have been what I consider a bit misleading on country of origin for their AGM's..

US Battery does make their flooded batteries in the USA but their AGM's are made in China. US Battery is merely the distributor/re-branding company when it comes to their AGM product..

I know who their AGM manufacturer is but for obvious reasons I won't out them as to who that is.. Rolls also has their AGM's built in China.....

You’re right (of course) Rod. I confused the origin of their non-AGM FLAs with AGMs. Apologies, all.

 

[Maerin]

There's a lot of talk about "cycles". Unlike a golf cart or floor polisher, we don' run our boat's batteries until a light comes on saying "recharge", the boat is run (and the batteries charged) as needed by the people using the boat. Hopefully, one night at anchor isn't a complete discharge cycle and a day's running may or may not fully recharge the batteries.

So - How to we match the typical use to the battery specs or requirements?

Excellent point. Particularly the "as needed by the people running the boat" who may or (more likely) may not be aware of what's happening with the charging system. If they have battery monitoring, they're already at an advantage of knowing what's happening. Herein lies the importance of the SYSTEM, insuring all the components (of which the battery is but one) are working together. The better the system is tailored to the typical use, the better it will work and the longer the battery component of the system will last.

So there is no "typical use" by which to match battery spec, it's a compromise predicated on the use of the individual vessel. The specific battery spec is incidental when considering that it's only a single part of the larger picture. The highest quality battery in the world is worthless if it's connected to a crappy charger, or has lousy cabling, inadequate alternator, clueless operator.... etc.

 

[CMS]

You’re right (of course) Rod. I confused the origin of their non-AGM FLAs with AGMs. Apologies, all.

Not your fault at all. Many battery manufacturers out there do not adequately disclose they are not the actual manufacturer nor where the batteries are manufactured.

There is also a ton of cross-manufacturing (and I am not even talking about private labeling). Years ago US Battery built a G-31 "marine" battery for Johnson Controls who then sold it to Wal*Mart. It was a hell of a value in a G-31 battery.

JCI has since built a plant in Mexico and no longer uses the USB product for their G-31 "marine" battery and the current crop of G-31's at Wal*Mart are nowhere near the same quality as the old USB built JCI/Wal*Mart battery. I have yet to test a single JCI built GC2 or G-24, 27 or 31 flooded battery that meets its 20 hour rating, heck I have yet to even see one deliver within 90% of the rating.Very frustrating to say the least. US Battery also used to build the Interstate Golf Car batteries. East Penn actually makes the GEL batteries for one of the biggest deep cycle guns in the industry, because they make an excellent GEL battery. US Battery & Rolls, among others, re-brand Chinese AGM's etc. etc. etc..

Just because a battery is Chinese in origin does not mean it is a bad battery. The Fullriver AGM's are actually a decent quality AGM and Fullriver also manufactures batteries for some of the big guns too. There are however many low quality Chinese made AGM's that are not deep cycle, despite claiming they are..

Both Crown & Trojan recently built brand new USA based AGM factories so we still have a bunch of US made AGM's to choose from. Northstar, Odyssey, Lifeline, Crown (many Crown AGM's are now US made their entire line will eventually be back in US), East Penn, Trojan & C&D Technologies (Outback) are also US built.

 

[angus99]

Many battery manufacturers out there do not adequately disclose they are not the actual manufacturer nor where the batteries are manufactured.

Sure enough! There’s no disclosure on the labels on my two-year-old batteries; the fine print seems to be a fairly recent addition. And, as you note, their website is misleading.

I’d prefer US-made, of course, but it’s not an outright deal-killer for me. I bought these because the 305 profile fits perfectly in the space I have and the AH capacity was among the largest for that footprint I could find short of an L16.

 

[RCook]

WesK,

I agree with the comments about how a proper system is essential to house batteries working well over a long life. In my 26-footer with Volvo diesel I installed a 75A Balmar alternator, Balmar MC612 external regulator, and Link 2000 battery monitor. We used our boat much as you describe your usage, except that we anchored for the night maybe 3/4 of the time. We had no generator. Our East Penn Deka 12V G31 AGM house bank did a fine job for 11 summers of cruising. You can get them these days from Sam's Club (Duracell label) for $180 each - pretty good price performance.

I just re-did the batteries in my 37 Nordic Tug with another set of Deka G31 AGM's. Considered GC's, but the G31's fit the space available and GC's did not. Wanted Firefly's, but they were not available. By the next time I need batteries, I'd probably choose Firefly's, assuming their reputation is still as good as it seems so far.

 

[Brooksie]

I have always had great luck and longevity with WalMart deep cycle flooded batteries. One of only 2 things I go to Walmart for.
I too would never pay for "premium" batteries like Rolls, they are not worth the difference IMHO besides too many non warranty things can happen to a battery, even a "premium battery.

 

[caltexflanc]

Rolls also has their AGM's built in China.....

Why does it say on the label Made in Canada? All their AGMs I've seen are so-labeled.

 

[Larry M]

Why does it say on the label Made in Canada? All their AGMs I've seen are so-labeled.

Maybe they’ve changed/moved where they are manufactured? All the wet cells look like they say either Product of Canada or Made in Canada on he label. I didn’t see any county of manufacter on a couple of the AGMs I looked at.

 

[CMS]

Maybe they’ve changed/moved where they are manufactured? All the wet cells look like they say either Product of Canada or Made in Canada on he label. I didn’t see any county of manufacter on a couple of the AGMs I looked at.

Their flooded batteries most definitely are made in Canada.

Their AGM's were/are not, unless they very recently built a production line. The Chinese battery manufacturer they were or are still using is very good and Rolls is the one standing behind them, which they do, with excellent support and warranty.

I would have a lot more worry over some of the others who have Chinese manufacturers build their AGM product than I do with Rolls. Again, from where I sit, I like to see a country of origin displayed. A made in China sticker does not prevent me from buying a product. I just prefer the manufacturer be honest U& up front about it.....

"Manufactured Under License For Surrette Battery Company Limited"

 

[caltexflanc]

Not now, or they're lying and I still don't see "Made in China"even on those pics posted above. The link here duplicates what I saw in person when shopping:

http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/drawings/S6-460AGM.pdf
http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/drawings/S6-370AGM.pdf

 

[CMS]

Not now, or they're lying and I still don't see "Made in China"even on those pics posted above. The link here duplicates what I saw in person when shopping:

http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/drawings/S6-460AGM.pdf
http://www.rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/drawings/S6-370AGM.pdf

They are still made in China but I don't believe they are lying, just perhaps not clearly labeling the product as such, or as well as they could.. They have not moved production to Canada on the AGM batteries.

Again, this is not a big deal they are good batteries. The corrugated box they ship in is very clearly label Made in China. Rolls directly or any of their distributors can confirm this with no qualms, if you ask them.

I can buy the actual manufactures version of the Rolls S6-460 (L-16) for about $70.00 less than I can from Rolls, but Rolls has a better warranty and stands behind the product extremely well so the $70.00 premium for the red case is usually worth it to me.

 

[john61ct]

Rolls AGM are made by FullRiver.

Yes in China, just like all our smartphones.

Excellent quality control specs, processes and oversight enforcement, just like Apple, their reputation is on the line.

Odyssey, Lifeline and Northstar are the other good AGMs in the US market.

Firefly Oasis for handling unavoidable PSOC abuse.

 

[bshanafelt]

in 2008 I remade my house bank with Fullriver 6v units as shown.

My boat does not have a generator.

Charging is handled by a large frame 200amp alternator with smart regulation, or at the dock by a 75A IOTA charger.

We typically are out 45-60 days during the summer in the PNW.

Anchoring 95% of the time.

The bank is sized to allow up to 5 days at anchor without starting the main.


I don't keep track of the number or exact depth of discharge prior to a recharge, but it is rare that it is less than 75%.

The bank is now 9 years old and as far as I can tell it performs the same as the day it was installed.


In 2008, Fullriver was just arriving in the mainstream, so it was a bit of a gamble, but I had found some fairly re-assuring comments from battery guru's in the know.

YMMV

 

[Codger2]

in 2008 I remade my house bank with Fullriver 6v units as shown................................

In 2008, Fullriver was just arriving in the mainstream, so it was a bit of a gamble, but I had found some fairly re-assuring comments from battery guru's in the know.

I had a very similar experience and also was reassured by 2 different battery gurus. The photo below is of my bow thruster bank. (24v thruster) These are FullRiver batts and I've been quite happy with them. (If you enlarge the photo, you will see that it reads 26.7 volts on a 24v bank.)

 

[john61ct]

Yes I've heard great things about the self-branded, but did not mean to imply they're **as good** as the ones they make for Rolls/Surrette.

RS' stellar reputation would IMO require higher specs, and the most stringent QA verification processes.

And they could switch vendors anytime, or build out AGM production lines in Canada.

 

[FF]

"The bank is sized to allow up to 5 days at anchor without starting the main."

Great , how do you run your reefer?

 

[bshanafelt]

Great , how do you run your reefer?


fridge/freezer is 12v deck unit Waaeco.

Daily use is around 85-100 amp hrs

Longest stay at anchor is typically 3 nights or less, could go 5 and be closer to 50-60% discharge

 

[FF]

Reading the latest National Fisherman is an article on Rolls batts.

They state their batts are built better than the "imports".

Rolls is a Canadian company , and I assume "made in the USA" was not their target , the 3rd world or China was.