I have a 2021 Duffy 22' Cuddy and I just had a Balmar SG200 gauge installed. The Duffy presently has a E..⇡..F gauge but it doesn't tell you anything more than that. The SG200 tells me SOC, SOH (state of health--comparing the energy it had when the batts were brand new), volts, amps in & out, time to go in hours and minutes. You name it, I have owned Victron, Maretron, etc. over the years but this Balmar is the best I've ever experienced. The photos below shows what the gauge indicates when you scroll through the data with quick clicks on the button. The SG200 is a learning gauge and requires no re-calibrating after initial set up which is "dirt simple." Those indications were viewed with shore power connected and everything else turn off. As the boat runs, all those values change instantly as the battery slowly discharges.
__________________ Done with diesel power boats! Have fallen in love with all electric!
Glad you like it! I've had nothing but trouble with mine. As soon as my solar kicks in in the morning and reverses current flow, I get a "Low SOH" fault code, and my SOH goes to 0%. I also get faults every time the engine starts (high discharge current), and every time my alternators exceed 80A of current (high charging current).
I put in a service ticket with Balmar and they told me I needed to update the firmware, which required spending another $55 on a bluetooth module. The firmware update did nothing & they haven't returned my last service call. Basically it's a voltmeter and an ammeter at this point.
Did you initialize the learning aspect of the gauge by discharging your bank down to 40% depth of discharge six or seven times?
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalrider
Glad you like it! I've had nothing but trouble with mine. As soon as my solar kicks in in the morning and reverses current flow, I get a "Low SOH" fault code, and my SOH goes to 0%. I also get faults every time the engine starts (high discharge current), and every time my alternators exceed 80A of current (high charging current).
I put in a service ticket with Balmar and they told me I needed to update the firmware, which required spending another $55 on a bluetooth module. The firmware update did nothing & they haven't returned my last service call. Basically it's a voltmeter and an ammeter at this point.
As soon as my solar kicks in in the morning and reverses current flow, I get a "Low SOH" fault code, and my SOH goes to 0%. I also get faults every time the engine starts (high discharge current), and every time my alternators exceed 80A of current (high charging current). .
I wish I could comment on your problems but 3 things you have that I don't are: solar, engines & alternators. My boat is all electric and all the SG 200 has to deal with is a 440 battery bank & AGM batteries.
__________________ Done with diesel power boats! Have fallen in love with all electric!
Did you initialize the learning aspect of the gauge by discharging your bank down to 40% depth of discharge six or seven times?
Is that a thing or are you joking? Can't remember that from the manual & they never suggested it. This is a 660ah bank; doing that would take me several weeks of messing around. I never take the pack down that far under normal operation - we cruised with it for 2 weeks last month and I got the same fault every morning. Still get it once a day while the boat's on her mooring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codger2
I wish I could comment on your problems but 3 things you have that I don't are: solar, engines & alternators. My boat is all electric and all the SG 200 has to deal with is a 440 battery bank & AGM batteries.
I'm jealous! You should put some solar on that big beautiful bimini! You'd never need to plug it in... probably need to get a new battery monitor though
No, it was certainly not a joke. I encourage you to read RodCollins article (with video) on his marinehowto.com website on the testing and installation of the SG200. You may find it quite enlightening.
The unit requires deep cycling in order to self-calibrate. It appears that you do not deep cycle your batteries. I have a 932ah bank. I got the SG200 calibrated and working flawlessly by not plugging into shorepower overnight six times. I cycled down to 40% depth of discharge and recharged to 100% which took about five hours. Until you do as Rod Collins advises, you cannot know that the unit does not work. I agree that Balmar's instructions are lacking in this regard. I can only guess that Balmar thinks boaters deplete their batteries to 50% DOD on a regular basis. I do. In fact 40% is my limit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalrider
Is that a thing or are you joking? Can't remember that from the manual & they never suggested it. This is a 660ah bank; doing that would take me several weeks of messing around. I never take the pack down that far under normal operation - we cruised with it for 2 weeks last month and I got the same fault every morning. Still get it once a day while the boat's on her mooring.
I'm jealous! You should put some solar on that big beautiful bimini! You'd never need to plug it in... probably need to get a new battery monitor though
CatalinaJack isn't joking, the manual does say to discharge down to 40% and charge back up to full. You may have to do this as much as 7-10 times so the SG200 can give you a true SOH. I did mine in the slip with shore power off, inverter on,TV, refrigerator, lights, etc. ON. I only had to do it once as my bank is only 4.5 months old. New batts respond with an SOH much quicker.
Note: The installation must be done exactly as the directions say or the gauge will not work! (ie: the shunt must be located no more than 12 inches from the negative post of the bank.) When installed exactly as the directions describe, your gauge should work fine!
BTW, Several years ago an owner did put solar panels on the bimini and took the boat from Newport beach, around the outside of Catalina and back to LA Harbor. (100 miles)
__________________ Done with diesel power boats! Have fallen in love with all electric!
I took the liberty of copying some info from the marinehowto.com article.
Patience is a Virtue:
TIP:*Once your SG200 is installed & programmed*please be patient. The SG200*requires your bank to be deeply-cycled*quite a few times in order for SoC and SoH to hone in. The deeper these cycles are, the faster the SG200 can learn the bank. Don’t be afraid to take your lead acid bank to 11.7V, if you want to speed up the learning process, just be sure you can recharge to 100% on the next cycle. Shallow cycling will just prolong the time it takes for the SG200 to “learn” bank behavior such as SoH.
Quote:*“Rod, I have had my new SG200 connected for almost four weeks and am still getting three dashes for SoH? We have not been able to leave the dock yet but was hoping to know my banks condition before we do?”
***The SG200 can’t learn SoH while tied to a dock charging 24/7***
The SG200 also cannot determine SoH while not charging and resting. To test this, we connected a lead acid battery to the SG200 and let it sit for two and a half months, with no charging or discharging, other than the SG200’s connection to the battery. At the end of 2.5 months the SG200 was still showing three dashes*—*for SoH. Bottom line? The SG200 is smart enough to know whether you’re cycling or not. The good news is that the SoC prediction, at the end of 2.5 months, was accurate to within 3%, while just sitting there.
Also, it is critical that the connection from the battery to the shunt is very short and there are NO negatives connected to the batteries as opposed to a busbar on the load side.
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalrider
Is that a thing or are you joking? Can't remember that from the manual & they never suggested it. This is a 660ah bank; doing that would take me several weeks of messing around. I never take the pack down that far under normal operation - we cruised with it for 2 weeks last month and I got the same fault every morning. Still get it once a day while the boat's on her mooring.
I'm jealous! You should put some solar on that big beautiful bimini! You'd never need to plug it in... probably need to get a new battery monitor though
I'm afraid I'm in the problems camp with this device. And I've followed the manual, tech support, posts on other forums, and Rod Collins and still was not able to get reliable readings from mine. My major issue is not the SOH (which doesn't appear accurate) but rather the SOC. It indicates % state of charge that is too high relative to resting voltage. Ie.. it appears to tell me I have more power left than I actually do. There is a thread, dozens of pages long on another forum about the SG200 and I have participated on that as well. Plenty of complaints there too along with satisfied users. I haven't pulled the SG200 out yet. Going to give it another season and see.
I guess I am one of the lucky ones. But, knowing how different one boat is from another, and knowing how some folks do "things" they believe do not make a difference but do, I wonder if, sometimes, it is user error. I am not suggesting that you have made installation blunders. I am just wondering in general.
Having said that I find your observation that you are not getting reliable readings on State of Charge (SOC). To what measure are you comparing the SG200 SOC reading? How do you know that your other measuring device is accurate? Perhaps it is not and the Balmar is reporting a more accurate measure.
My MRC-50 monitor for my Magnum 2812 measures SOC. It differs from the SG200. I choose to think that the SG200 measure is more accurate especially since the MRC-50 does not correct for State of Health.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospective
I'm afraid I'm in the problems camp with this device. And I've followed the manual, tech support, posts on other forums, and Rod Collins and still was not able to get reliable readings from mine. My major issue is not the SOH (which doesn't appear accurate) but rather the SOC. It indicates % state of charge that is too high relative to resting voltage. Ie.. it appears to tell me I have more power left than I actually do. There is a thread, dozens of pages long on another forum about the SG200 and I have participated on that as well. Plenty of complaints there too along with satisfied users. I haven't pulled the SG200 out yet. Going to give it another season and see.
I guess I am one of the lucky ones. But, knowing how different one boat is from another, and knowing how some folks do "things" they believe do not make a difference but do, I wonder if, sometimes, it is user error. I am not suggesting that you have made installation blunders. I am just wondering in general.
Having said that I find your observation that you are not getting reliable readings on State of Charge (SOC). To what measure are you comparing the SG200 SOC reading? How do you know that your other measuring device is accurate? Perhaps it is not and the Balmar is reporting a more accurate measure.
My MRC-50 monitor for my Magnum 2812 measures SOC. It differs from the SG200. I choose to think that the SG200 measure is more accurate especially since the MRC-50 does not correct for State of Health.
I think it's more accurate to say I'm one of the unlucky ones. I'm sure there are plenty of happy users like yourself. I was a happy user of the original smartgauge and upgraded for the additional functionality.
As to what's leading me to believe there's an issue... I am using the SG200 it's self. It indicates an SOC after a night on the mooring of let's say 86%. But voltage is down to maybe 12.1V on minimal to no load suggesting a much lower SOC. This voltage is confirmed by a separate blue seas voltmeter in the battery compartment. But I know voltage as an indicator of SOC can be misleading...So I run my single cup coffee maker via my Victron 2000W inverter/charger and it shows a low voltage error. I don't believe it would do this if my 300amp/hr FLA bank was actually at 86%. Perhaps I misinterpreting the data? But I've shared this info with Balmar and they haven't suggested I'm wrong. Just that they just don't know "why". But this has led me to not trust the SOC reading. Further, I have never gotten a SOH reading of less than 100% despite repeated charge/discharge cycles on my 5 year old FLA bank. I find this hard to believe.
You are right to say it could be something unique to my system. I carefully installed the monitor shunt with a heavy duty 4/0 cable within 12" of the negative battery terminal. All charge/load negatives are on the other side serviced by a heavy buss bar.
One thing that may be "different" about my system is I have a Blue Sea ACR charge relay that paralell's my banks together during charging. Balmar has stated to me that they have not totally sorted the interplay of an ACR with the SG200. But feedback has been limited so it remains a bit of a mystery. I may just disconnect the ACR to see if it improves performance. But with the SG200 any change requires lengthy recalibrations so it's a tedious trial and error process.
Not trying to trash the product or the company. And I'd welcome any help on getting it to work as it should. Help from Balmar has been limited. Just my two cents.
Mine seemed to work just fine (except for high current faults when starting) until I upgraded my solar array. It'll show a rational SOC reading in the evening as my batteries are drawn down, but then as soon as the solar pushes the bus voltage up to 13V or so I get the "Low SOC" fault, and SOC shows 0%.
It's installed correctly per the instructions. Just a single house bank so a very simple system to monitor. I can understand needing to cycle the pack to get the SOH calibrated, but this is something different.
Prospective, now you have me wondering. My SOH shows 100% after cycling six times. I would have thought it to be lower given that the batteries are four years old. I just assumed that the unit was still learning. But, as you do, I have two Blue Sea ACRs, one for the thruster, one for the generator starting batteries. I could easily disable both ACRs to see if doing so changes the reported SOH. I hardly ever use the thruster and could easily get along without it. Unfortunately, one of my electric heads is wired to the generator batteries but we have two heads. Also, one of my generators has an alternator that provides charge current to its batteries.
When I get back to the boat next Monday, I am going to disable both ACRs and cycle down to 40% several more times. I will report back in two weeks.
Again,12 VDC is proving to be a black art befuddling many with seemingly endless combinations of equipment and wiring alternatives affecting outcomes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospective
I think it's more accurate to say I'm one of the unlucky ones. I'm sure there are plenty of happy users like yourself. I was a happy user of the original smartgauge and upgraded for the additional functionality.
As to what's leading me to believe there's an issue... I am using the SG200 it's self. It indicates an SOC after a night on the mooring of let's say 86%. But voltage is down to maybe 12.1V on minimal to no load suggesting a much lower SOC. This voltage is confirmed by a separate blue seas voltmeter in the battery compartment. But I know voltage as an indicator of SOC can be misleading...So I run my single cup coffee maker via my Victron 2000W inverter/charger and it shows a low voltage error. I don't believe it would do this if my 300amp/hr FLA bank was actually at 86%. Perhaps I misinterpreting the data? But I've shared this info with Balmar and they haven't suggested I'm wrong. Just that they just don't know "why". But this has led me to not trust the SOC reading. Further, I have never gotten a SOH reading of less than 100% despite repeated charge/discharge cycles on my 5 year old FLA bank. I find this hard to believe.
You are right to say it could be something unique to my system. I carefully installed the monitor shunt with a heavy duty 4/0 cable within 12" of the negative battery terminal. All charge/load negatives are on the other side serviced by a heavy buss bar.
One thing that may be "different" about my system is I have a Blue Sea ACR charge relay that paralell's my banks together during charging. Balmar has stated to me that they have not totally sorted the interplay of an ACR with the SG200. But feedback has been limited so it remains a bit of a mystery. I may just disconnect the ACR to see if it improves performance. But with the SG200 any change requires lengthy recalibrations so it's a tedious trial and error process.
Not trying to trash the product or the company. And I'd welcome any help on getting it to work as it should. Help from Balmar has been limited. Just my two cents.
Although this is slightly off topic, and only partially answered OP's question, calculating battery state of health (SOH) is easy.
Assuming you have a reasonably accurate voltmeter and battery monitor that calculates state of charge(SOC)
1. Look on your battery manufactures web site or owners manual and copy the state of charge vs voltage chart.
2. Discharge your batteries slowly, stopping periodically and testing voltage.
3. Adjust the battery monitor battery capacity input to match the SOC at that voltage.
4. The resulting capacity figure vs the manufacturers claimed capacity will give you a good idea of battery SOH.
A few things to keep in mind:
- Some batteries do not meet mfg's rating even when new.
- Batteries loose capacity as they age.
- Batteries produce less power the faster they discharge. Most are rated at what is called "a 20 hour rate".Therefore don't discharge too fast or your calculations will not be accurate.
- Batteries show a lower voltage as they are being discharged, therefore before checking voltage, stop all discharge, and "rest" the batteries for 20 to 30 min.
- Do this test over the discharge range that you usually use. Testing every 10% discharge from 100% to 60% will probably be appropriate for most.
- It is not necessary to do this test every day. Probably a couple of times a season is sufficient.
- SOH is the figure you need to decide when it is time for new batteries.
I bought one of these plus the bluetooth module earlier this spring and haven't installed it. Between reading this thread and others about this device, I'm questioning whether I ever want to. I initially thought it might be more user friendly than my existing Victron BMV-600S, but it seems I'd just be trading the devil I know for the devil I don't. I'm considering selling it and waiting to see how the technology continues to evolve. If anyone wants an uninstalled open box unit, feel free to make me an offer.
I had a long conversation this morning with Rod Collins of the marinehowto.com website about ACRs, DC-DC chargers, alternators, and the Balmar SG200. He was very generous with his time. As for the SG200 he emphasized that, for the SOH function, patience is the key. He said it takes many iterations of deep discharge before the unit will learn. I told him I had done six discharges down to 40% depth of discharge but I was still showing 100% SOH. He said it will take many more iterations but it will eventually learn. It will not self-calibrate plugged into shore power or when the bank is not deeply discharged, at least to 50%. He also said having ACRs feeding auxiliary batteries has absolutely no affect on the learning. So, folks, it appears we need to be more patient with this device before passing judgment.
Rod also educated me on a few other things electrical.
1. My two Balmar 100 amp alternators are insufficient for charging my 920 Ah battery bank. The alternators are being overworked, get too hot, and if a temp sensor is used as one should be, the regulator will derate its output down to 50%.Then, when the alternator cools down enough it will put out more until it gets hot again. This repetitious cycling is NOT good for the alternators. His recommendation for the Balmar regulator is to derate to Level 3 or 4 to,prevent this cycling and mitigate heat damage to the alternators. Rod recommended the Balmar XT-170 for a two engine system as a good upgrade.
2. Thruster batteries should be AGMs. He recommended two Group 31s, either Odyssey or Northstar.
3. I should combine my two separate four golf car FLA banks into one. It is now configured with a Blue Sea on-off-1-2 battery switch. It is as simple as taking the feed off the #2 position on the switch and adding it on top of the #1 position. That will mean I do not need two smart shunts for the SG200 but it also means I have to start the learning process all over again. Oh well. It also means that I now have an extra shunt if anyone is interested.
4. A shunt to monitor the thruster bank is a waste according to Rod. He explained that, although the current draw can be as high as 400 amps, the total time the thruster is being used is so short that the batteries will never be depleted more than a few per cent and is recharged fairly quickly.
5. Presently, I have a single Group 31 sealed lead acid battery for my thruster. Rod strongly recommended replacing it with two Group 31 AGMs and feeding them with a DC-DC 30-amp charger rather than through an ACR. Charging the generator starting batteries through my existing ACR is just fine. He also said my two Group 27 generator starting batteries are overkill. One Group 31 is more than adequate. He also had no issue with the fact that I start my mains with the house bank.
Thanks for that - very helpful! Makes me feel good about my super-simple single FLA (6 GC batt) house bank that I use for starting and everything else.
Quote:
Originally Posted by catalinajack
So, folks, it appears we need to be more patient with this device before passing judgment.
I'd buy that if the issues were just with the SOH algorithm. That's the true innovation of the SG200, and it's meant to track long-term battery health, so taking a long time to calibrate isn't an issue per se (though if you're like me and never discharge to 40% I'm not sure if it will ever properly calibrate).
I can deal with the nuisance current faults, stupidly factory set & non-modifiable.
The real issue is the SOC algorithm, which shows me a fault every time the solar kicks in (and re-sets the SOH and SOC both to 0%). This renders the device useless, and Balmar can't seem to resolve it. They finally responded to my latest reminder e-mail by offering to send me a free Bluetooth module. Nice gesture, but I already bought it & the updates didn't fix my issue (as I had told them in the preceding email). Now more silence.
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"He also had no issue with the fact that I start my mains with the house bank"
I continue to wonder about the effect this has on the SG200. I'm pretty sure their shunt is rated at 350 amps, but am not sure what that means in practice. If it can't accurately measure a larger starting burst then the cycle-based learning goes out the window...
"He also had no issue with the fact that I start my mains with the house bank"
I continue to wonder about the effect this has on the SG200. I'm pretty sure their shunt is rated at 350 amps, but am not sure what that means in practice. If it can't accurately measure a larger starting burst then the cycle-based learning goes out the window...
That's a good thought - starting my FL120s does fault it out sometimes, as the starter current is right around 300a, but doesn't impact SOC or SOC readings. The actual amp-hours that could be "missed" would be de minimus (lots of amps, but very few hours!), so it shouldn't really impact things much. More A-h would be "missed" due to resistance losses in wiring, for example.