Ascension of Lithium

[MurrayM]

There's going to be a massive increase in lithium battery production in the next three to seven years. Might be perfectly timed for when our lead acid golf cart batteries need to be replaced

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-28/china-is-about-to-bury-elon-musk-in-batteries

 

[dw8928]

Probably will kill off propane on boats too

 

[C lectric]

The batteries themselves are not the problem.
The charging and monitoring requirement are.
Those mfgr. doing a good job of chargers and proper monitoring are few and far between and their products are good but very expensive.
Failure to deal with the charge/monitoring g end will result in a very expensive failure of batteries.
It will come but be darn careful you do not get sucked into the hype.
Too many promoting without telling you the entire story.
Read CMS comments in a recent thread.

 

[MurrayM]

I'm waiting to see if there will be enough critical mass via cars and home storage that those problems get ironed out. Time will tell...

 

[Xsbank]

I cant see electric cars lasting in the public's affection until you can recharge one as simply as a fill up of gasoline. When that happens, all bets are off.

 

[BruceK]

South Australia (state), which is experiencing some difficulty supplying the State with electricity, is doing a deal with Elon Musk (Tesla) to build a massive lithium battery, the biggest ever made,with electricity supplied by wind farm generation. If it`s not built within 100days of the agreement (scheduled for mid October) it`s going to be provided free for SA.
I`ve read it could service 30000 homes overnight, but I`m really not sure of the projected capacity or lifespan. Or what happens if wind conditions are calm. As the largest ever built I assume it will take a lot of lithium.

 

[AusCan]

South Australia (state), which is experiencing some difficulty supplying the State with electricity, is doing a deal with Elon Musk (Tesla) to build a massive lithium battery, the biggest ever made,with electricity supplied by wind farm generation. If it`s not built within 100days of the agreement (scheduled for mid October) it`s going to be provided free for SA.
I`ve read it could service 30000 homes overnight, but I`m really not sure of the projected capacity or lifespan. Or what happens if wind conditions are calm. As the largest ever built I assume it will take a lot of lithium.

Because South Australia has such a high percentage of small wind an solar power generation (over 40%), the system is lacking big baseload generators to keep the system stable. Lithium battery packs are going to provide the stabilization when upsets to the grid system occur. This battery pack will provide 129 million amp hours of power when required.

 

[rwidman]

I cant see electric cars lasting in the public's affection until you can recharge one as simply as a fill up of gasoline. ............ .

Yea, that's easy to overlook for some folks. An electric car is useless for long trips so if you buy one, you'll need to either buy or rent a conventionally powered car for trips.

Electric cars have an advantage over boats - They can generate electricity from braking and going downhill. Boats seldom do that.

I have wondered though; Do electric cars have air conditioning? If so, how much does using it reduce the range of the car?

Going back to the original post and the assumption that we will be driving lithium battery powered cars and boats, perhaps we will someday but many of us have learned not to be the first to buy into some new technology. The leading edge is also the bleeding edge.

When I see the mainstream boat manufacturers using lithium batteries, I'll consider them.

 

[rwidman]

Probably will kill off propane on boats too

Why do you say that?

 

[dw8928]

Why do you say that?

There is already a movement in the RV world to get rid of propane and stand-alone gensets for batteries and huge alternator/solar power recharge systems.

 

[rwidman]

There is already a movement in the RV world to get rid of propane and stand-alone gensets for batteries and huge alternator/solar power recharge systems.

Why is that and why does it apply to boats? Who is promoting this "movement"?

RVs are a bit different than boats. RVs often use propane for refrigeration. Boats do not. I much prefer cooking with gas (natural or propane) to electric. It's going to take a mighty big bank of batteries to roast a turkey.

 

[DavidM]

There is already a movement in the RV world to get rid of propane and stand-alone gensets for batteries and huge alternator/solar power recharge systems.

I haven't seen that trend yet, maybe because I have a light weight tow behind trailer and I suspect your comment relates to Class A motorhomes. But from what I have seen in my somewhat limited RV view is that 95% of RVer's camp at established campgrounds with plug in power.

Also to eliminate propane, the RV industry would have to switch to Danfoss compressor cooled refrigeration, not the current propane/electric heat based absorption cooling. And what do you do about heating hot water? No RV that I am aware of hooks up the propulsion engine's cooling system to the hot water heater like boats do.

And finally for our type of camping which is in rustic, NP, SP and USFS sites, we use very little power- 5-10 AH daily, but we do use significant propane for cooking, water heating, refrigeration and if really cold, the furnace.

These needs will never be met with solar for us, because we always camp in shade.

David

 

[dw8928]

Why is that and why does it apply to boats? Who is promoting this "movement"?

RVs are a bit different than boats. RVs often use propane for refrigeration. Boats do not. I much prefer cooking with gas (natural or propane) to electric. It's going to take a mighty big bank of batteries to roast a turkey.

LOL, have you really roasted a turkey in a boat ? I used to say this too!!

A company called Roadtrek has a system called Voltstart that works the way I described. They were just bought by the largest RV manufacturer in Europe.

The big problem is the engine on a boat isn’t the same quiet operator as an automobile engine.

 

[Jeff F]

Yea, that's easy to overlook for some folks. An electric car is useless for long trips so if you buy one, you'll need to either buy or rent a conventionally powered car for trips.

Electric cars have an advantage over boats - They can generate electricity from braking and going downhill. Boats seldom do that.

I have wondered though; Do electric cars have air conditioning? If so, how much does using it reduce the range of the car?

Going back to the original post and the assumption that we will be driving lithium battery powered cars and boats, perhaps we will someday but many of us have learned not to be the first to buy into some new technology. The leading edge is also the bleeding edge.

When I see the mainstream boat manufacturers using lithium batteries, I'll consider them.

I have had a Nissan Leaf - a relatively affordable electric car - for almost 4 years. Great urban car that has never been more than 100 miles from home. I'd call it a secondary car, but that's not quite right - it's our primary car for local use. Yes has A/C, and in hot weather usage reduces range by typically 10%. Bigger challenge is winter, where range is reduced by up to 50% in cold (< -20 C).

One mitigation is to preheat or precool the car while plugged in - which can be preprogrammed or done on demand through a smart phone app. An unexpected benefit for us is that my partner who hates cold has taken to preheating the car all the time, even if not plugged in. She loves that, and with a short commute has the power available to do it without concern for range.

And to an earlier comment, recharging is less onerous than visiting gas stations. Plugging it in at the end of the day at home has become automatic. Keeping the car charged has proven to be no more difficult than keeping a phone charged.

 

[MurrayM]

Some have missed my point.

I don't think we'll all be driving electric cars in less than ten years, but there might be enough 'critical mass' in larger cities and China to drive innovation forward at an ever accelerating pace.

Mule skinner's used to laugh at those putt-putt vee-hickles struggling through the wagon ruts. Who foresaw how fast those weird diodes which emitted a soft dusky light would be improved? How long has the Internet been around?

If I was to improve our batteries today I'd go with carbon foam, but anticipate a rapid evolution of lithium battery system components once all these factories begin production.

Right now our alternator is limited by the size of our lead acid golf cart battery bank. Being able to install a much bigger alternator (or alternators) with batteries that don't need a float charge to reach full will be a game changer. So will availability of system components in remote locations. That's when I'll make the switch.

 

[C lectric]

Got your point.
I semi seriously looked at Li batteries two yrs ago but shied away because the charging and monitoring systems were still at the ( bit fiddler stage),my wife,s terminology.

I have had good success with my current batteries,gels, and another 10 years will likely see me out of boating or at least the longer range boating we do now.
The large extra expense, complications and hooplah , I determined, we're not worth it.

I agree that those problems will/are being overcome even as we discuss but for most of us
It will take a bunch more time that many don,t have. We need to change batteries now.

The auto and power grids will drive the changes but boating ,being small, will lag but will come.

For me, to late and far too expensive yet.
For you and many others another few years could be a game changer. Hope so.

 

[Ski in NC]

I could easily see me going with an electric car and then renting a gasser for long trips. That might be a model that works.

 

[Art]

Couple things bout the coming proliferation [i.e., new age Batt-Craze] regarding transportation vehicle and building-power "Batteries":

1. Transfer power loss from new-power generation mode to the actual added-charge accomplished inside batteries generally runs from 10 to 20+ percent power loss. That equals a bit of a cost problem regarding solar, wave, wind and other eco-clean power generator sources... while creating sizable increased %age pollution conditions when batt-charging power originates from generator systems using fossil fuels.

2. Once the billion-plus vehicles throughout the many levels of transportation systems [cars, motorcycles, bicycles, small trucks, boats etc] and, in addition, billion-plus buildings actually begin to become a substantial %age of them all being battery powered [rather than clean-energy or fossil fuel powered] - The elements/bulk of battery waste created as/while aged batteries fail will develop enormous pollution conditions of its own volition. Recycling procedures will hopefully be able to handle the mass of waste materials that will be continuously created.

In effect... for enabling the necessary requirement for having continued energy availability... the world will be trading portions of some pollution creating circumstances for a whole new group of pollution creating sources, conditions and circumstances. Which means, we may be getting into ever deeper and more problematic pollution conditions/circumstances.

Partial solution to this problem of producing/storing/using energy by either ongoing or differently accomplished yet potentially increased pollution sources/methods: Full-Cycle <atmospherically accomplished> "carbon neutral" liquid hydrocarbon energy sources of fungible, drop-in diesel, gasoline and jet fuels. This truly clean-energy, eco-stable fuel opportunity can be and is about to be brought to fruition. Please... Keep your eyes open!

 

[FF]

"Probably will kill off propane on boats too"

Doubtful,

nothing proposed can match 30-40 days of reefer operation for a $20 propane refill.

Or 2 -3 months of cooking for the same $20.

$10K for a noisemaker $5K for a fancy 5 year batt set?
That need maint and make noise, and eat fuel?

UGH!

 

[Lou_tribal]

Probably will kill off propane on boats too

Damned it! I'v just finished to do my new propane installation aboard



L.

 

[dhays]

Couple things bout the coming proliferation [i.e., new age Batt-Craze] regarding transportation vehicle and building-power "Batteries":

Your points are good ones. In solving some issues we may be creating others.

 

[Art]

Your points are good ones. In solving some issues we may be creating others.

In one of my primary businesses I live and breath circumstances/opportunities regarding clean electric and full cycle hydrocarbon power generation alternatives.

Electric power storage is another side of the coin. That said: Capabilities to continually "cleanly generate" enough power from different sources and for different applications are the geese with golden eggs.

Electric power storage is also very important; however, that procedure's containers'-manifestations are currently riddled with pitfalls of many different types and levels regarding efficiency capabilities and future environmental hazards.

Thoughtful advancement,

Art

 

[what_barnacles]

Lithium? I had one of the local pirates (thats what I call boat repair people in clear lake) tell me the diesel fuel spill that was spreading all over our dock was really lithium from the a/c units cooling coil. What you mean you didnt know marine a/c units had lithium in their condensers?

Never ever let your boat need repairs in clear lake tx.

 

[BruceK]

Damned it! I'v just finished to do my new propane installation aboard

L.

Will a mini coal fired power station in the cockpit be illegal too?

 

[Cottontop]

I could easily see me going with an electric car and then renting a gasser for long trips. That might be a model that works.

Chevy Volt. Problem solved.

I've had mine for 5+ years and 100,000 miles. Most of the time I'm 100% electric, but road trips on the gas engine, no problem.

I have spent $0 on repairs, and little on maintenance (4 oil changes).

When this one wears out, I'm getting another one.

 

[BDofMSP]

Last week I saw something that made me think that this is a new opportunity for marinas. There was a Tesla parked at the one spot that was close enough to the one slip that didn't have a boat in it, and it had a long extension cord running to the pedestal at that slip. If another electric car had needed juice? Or if someone had been using that slip? Not sure what he would have done.

If predictions are accurate, there may be a new service for marinas to sell - power at your parking spot.

 

[AusCan]

There are plenty of charging stations in this area already.
The city of Adelaide has free electric charging stations in many of their city owned car parks. The bonus is you get free parking while you are getting free electricity. Just another way of promoting a cleaner way a of motoring.

 

[Art]

There are plenty of charging stations in this area already.
The city of Adelaide has free electric charging stations in many of their city owned car parks. The bonus is you get free parking while you are getting free electricity. Just another way of promoting a cleaner way a of motoring.

"... a cleaner way a of motoring."

Not much cleaner [if at all cleaner] when the electricity comes off an electrical power-grid whose electric plants are burning coal... Even NG emits pollutants. Electrically recharge-powering cars in any location simply shifts the pollution into atmosphere from car exhaust onto electric plant chimney exhaust. With 18 to 22 percent loss factor over electricity power-grid transmission lines to reach the vehicle charge stations even though there are efforts to clean-up electric plant chimney emissions... representative air pollution due to cars is still occurring.

Now... if the electric energy used to recharge vehicle batts comes from "clean" electricity manufacturing sources i.e. PV, Airflow/Wind Blades, Geothermal, Wave/Tidal Action... etc. Then we are on the correct path to curtail atmospheric pollution from vehicles.

That said: After battery powered vehicles become dominant in sales/use... we run into another problem; i.e. taking care of the BILLIONS of Batteries' demise and hopefully 100% batt-product recycling. That in and of itself will become an enormous industry!

 

[AusCan]

"... a cleaner way a of motoring."

Not much cleaner [if at all cleaner] when the electricity comes off an electrical power-grid whose electric plants are burning coal...

Art - You are right - it depends on how your electricity is produced.

Electric cars in South Australia are much cleaner than those running on gasoline or diesel, mainly because we have shut down all of our coal fired power stations.

Wind power and solar supply close to 50% of current electricity production. Natural gas powers about the same amount. Landfill gas and biomass powers the rest. There are a couple small diesel generators as back up in the more remote areas.

Overall, it is not as clean as the electricity production in Tasmania, Quebec or British Columbia which which are over 90% hydro-powered, but far cleaner than most.

 

[MurrayM]

Art's looking at the big picture...I'm just looking at trends and guessing that some benefits might trickle my way.

In Canada we have lots of hydro (dam-water-turbine) power, so less air born pollution transfer from car to power plant.