Adding electric outlets where I want them

[Gdavid]

The anchor brand multi connector is tinned and probably the most common. I tend to think of multi connector wire as romex because that is what it looks like but it is certainly different and the multi strand conductors make it limp unlike romex.

I like to use closed loop terminal fittings on all boat wiring but outlets can be a pain with these as the threads on the screws are defomed a bit to make them captive, they can be forced out but can be a bear to get started again. This may be one good use for slotted terminals but so far I just fight the screws off and back on again. Someone probably makes more marine friendly outlets but I have not seen them.

 

[rwidman]

You can use the plastic outlet boxes that are also used for home wiring. You can flush mount them just as you would in your home.

West Marine (and other marine retailers) sells "triplex" cable, three color coded conductors in an outer sheath that is similar to "romex" but with marine grade stranded wire.

Secure the cable near the boxes and along its length where possible, use the correct gauge of wire for the overcurrent protection (or vice versa). Use marine crimp connectors and terminals, not wire nuts.

 

[SteveK]

Gotcha. I prefer to use tinned cable, but as long as it's stranded, it'll do the job.

Stranded will do the job except ABYC says tinned only, so I heard.

 

[Turtle Blues]

Romex is specifically identified as not acceptable in most marine industry technical information. It is not acceptable for unprotected, exposed installation per nec. It does not meet the criteria for exposed bilge or engine compartment installation.
This statement will undoubtedly result in the recurring argument about standards vs requirements.
For the couple extra dollars buying marine cable should be worth the peace of mind.
The builder used individual conductors you have the option of that or multi conductor in a single jacket which is superior to the original.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

I used the word 'romex' generically - was referring to tinned, stranded wire in a white plastic jacket - looks very similar to Romex, but obviously not the home version.

 

[HeadedToTexas]

Me too. Romex makes many different types of wire and cable including stranded, tinned cable that complies with ABYC. So popular its name has become synonymous with a certain type of wire commonly used in dirt homes. Such is life.

FWIW, the 50’ of stranded, tinned 14/3 cable I bought for this project arrived yesterday. I only need about 8’ for the two outlets, but 50’ was cheaper. Again, such is life.

 

[SteveK]

Me too. Romex makes many different types of wire and cable including stranded, tinned cable that complies with ABYC. So popular its name has become synonymous with a certain type of wire commonly used in dirt homes. Such is life.

FWIW, the 50’ of stranded, tinned 14/3 cable I bought for this project arrived yesterday. I only need about 8’ for the two outlets, but 50’ was cheaper. Again, such is life.

Murphy says you will find use for the rest. I found the same, value in the 50 foot precut.

 

[Circumnavigator]

A thought not mentioned above. Over the long run -- say ten years -- an ordinary outlet, even a premium grade, has steel parts that will corrode. It's best practice to use hospital grade outlets -- identified with a green dot on the face. They have better internal specifications and must hold the plug more securely.


I tend to agree with the thought that a GFI outlet should protect itself and not anything downstream. The marine environment is difficult for GFIs -- there is often a little leakage from salt mist deposits, so they sometimes open when there is no real problem. I'd much rather lose one outlet when that happens than a whole circuit.


Jim

 

[Bacchus]

A

I tend to agree with the thought that a GFI outlet should protect itself and not anything downstream. The marine environment is difficult for GFIs -- there is often a little leakage from salt mist deposits, so they sometimes open when there is no real problem. I'd much rather lose one outlet when that happens than a whole circuit.


Jim

No problem with using the best quality receptacles as possible.
If several in a string I dont see a problem with first being GFCI.
In order to separate and have each receptacle GFCI independent it will take more work to rewire.
If the cir unit GFCI is easily accessible not a big problem to notice and reset.

 

[Circumnavigator]

If several in a string I dont see a problem with first being GFCI.
In order to separate and have each receptacle GFCI independent it will take more work to rewire.
If the cir unit GFCI is easily accessible not a big problem to notice and reset.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear. On boats, GFI outlets have a tendency to open because of salty moisture induced stray currents and cannot be reset without a through cleaning or perhaps replacement. If that happens you lose the whole string of outlets.


Certainly this is not a frequent occurrence, but it has happened to me often enough so that I wire them to protect only themselves and not the downstream string.


Jim

 

[Nick F]

Commodave, you've said this twice about needing a separate circuit for each GFI - and I am missing why that is necessary.

If the breaker feeds the LINE side of the first GFI, and then you go from that same LINE side (not the LOAD side) to the next GFI - why can't you have multiple outlets on the same breaker? Granted, that would have two sets of wires on the LINE side. Is that what you're assuming wouldn't be done? And obviously, you couldn't pull 15A from each outlet all at the same time.

Oak Box´s suggestion seems elegantly simple and certainly safe. I have the same question in my mind, and no-one answered this. Is there some standard saying that only one GFCI outlet may be on a breaker?

I anyone out there knows - please answer!

Thanks,
Nick

 

[SteveK]

Oak Box´s suggestion seems elegantly simple and certainly safe. I have the same question in my mind, and no-one answered this. Is there some standard saying that only one GFCI outlet may be on a breaker?

I anyone out there knows - please answer!

Thanks,
Nick

IF you daisy chain from the line side then you can string multiple GFCI plugs and they will each work independantly.
As soon as you feed from load side there is no need for any more GFCI plugs downstream on that line. Actually, it may even have false trips, dunno.
Just remember where to go to reset the tripped circuit.

 

[Nick F]

IF you daisy chain from the line side then you can string multiple GFCI plugs and they will each work independantly.
As soon as you feed from load side there is no need for any more GFCI plugs downstream on that line. Actually, it may even have false trips, dunno.
Just remember where to go to reset the tripped circuit.

Thanks Steve - but the original question remains unanswered . . .

 

[Bacchus]

IF you daisy chain from the line side then you can string multiple GFCI plugs and they will each work independantly.

As soon as you feed from load side there is no need for any more GFCI plugs downstream on that line. Actually, it may even have false trips, dunno.

Just remember where to go to reset the tripped circuit.

I dont know what you mean by working independently but all the "downstream" outlets will work off the GFCI they are tied to. So if any one triggers a GFCI trip ALL outlets .one power. I would not consider that independently operation but maybe in your terminology it is

I guess if you feed multi GFCIs on the line side you do get what you describe... many don't understand the basics of wiring GFCIs so make sure you know and wire appropriately.

 

[SteveK]

Bacchus, at first you disagree but then agree, did I read correctly. IF all GFCi are connected to the line then they do not do what any other one does. ONLY if the next one is connected to the load of the previous one will the primary one affect the next one.

 

[SteveK]

Oak Box´s suggestion seems elegantly simple and certainly safe. I have the same question in my mind, and no-one answered this. Is there some standard saying that only one GFCI outlet may be on a breaker?

I anyone out there knows - please answer!

Thanks,
Nick

None that I am aware of.
As a matter of fact my recent survey I was told to add one in each location where there is water (sinks etc). My argument that it was covered off the load of the first GFI fell on deaf ears. So I re wired nothing on load side and added GFI. (For me an easy DIY)

 

[catalinajack]

None that I am aware of.

As a matter of fact my recent survey I was told to add one in each location where there is water (sinks etc). My argument that it was covered off the load of the first GFI fell on deaf ears. So I re wired nothing on load side and added GFI. (For me an easy DIY)

So, another ignorant surveyor adding costs unnecessarily.

 

[Bacchus]

Bacchus, at first you disagree but then agree, did I read correctly. IF all GFCi are connected to the line then they do not do what any other one does. ONLY if the next one is connected to the load of the previous one will the primary one affect the next one.

Yes true
As I replied I realized there are 2 ways to wire them with different results.
The "nomal" way / per GFCI instructions are the first where downstream outlets are fed from the load side.

I dont think the instructions include your approach of feeding all to the line side only but agree that if done that way each protects itself only.

 

[rwidman]

I'm willing to spend the $10 per outlet (buying in bulk) to put one GFI at each place. Then, if something trips, the reset is right there where whatever it is plugs in.
If I did the wiring, I *might* remember where the master GFI outlet is on a circuit... But several years later (when, not if, I forget), or for guests, or if I ever sell the boat - it would sure be nice to not have to go hunting for a GFI outlet somewhere else.

But unfortunately, it does complicate the wiring.

Another place I ran into a similar conundrum was in the engine room. Incoming AC supply line, but I wanted to use that for a set of LED lights for the engine room, an engine room heater, and ideally a spare plug for power tools, pumps, etc...

The easy solution would have been to install an outlet or two, but I got mixed answers on whether or not it was ok to have outlets in the engine room of a gas powered boat.

I CLEARLY understand the risk of spark when you plug / unplug something. But I also think any REASONABLE person wouldn't try to plug something into an outlet when they could smell gas fumes. And hopefully I'd never have (unreasonable) people down in the engine room...

It is definitely Not OK to install an electrical outlet in the engine room of a gasoline powered boat. Don't be tempted to do that just because you can. Not only can it be a source of sparks when you plug something into it or unplug it, many of the things you might plug into the outlet (lights, power tools, etc.) can also be a source of sparks.

 

[rwidman]

No problem using a multi conductor cable, but it can't be Romex, as it needs to be stranded, not solid conductor. Multi conductor stranded marine cable is available for stuff like this.

It's called "triplex" and is available at west Marine and other marine vendors.

Three stranded and tinned conductors (black, white and green) in a protective sheath. Available in several gauges.

 

[STB]

Just catching up on this thread...

Nothing wrong with wiring multiple GFCI breakers on the same circuit as long as they are all off of the load side vs the line side.

If one were to daisy chain off of load and any one would trip, they'd probably all trip. A bunch of stuff would lose power. It would be hard to know where to start debugging. And each of them would need to be rest individually.

 

[Nick F]

Just catching up on this thread...

Nothing wrong with wiring multiple GFCI breakers on the same circuit as long as they are all off of the load side vs the line side.

If one were to daisy chain off of load and any one would trip, they'd probably all trip. A bunch of stuff would lose power. It would be hard to know where to start debugging. And each of them would need to be rest individually.

Hi Gkesden - was this a typo? Did you mean to say (or am I misunderstanding?):

"Nothing wrong with wiring multiple GFCI receptacles on the same breaker circuit as long as they are all off the LINE side, not the LOAD side."

 

[STB]

Hi Gkesden - was this a typo? Did you mean to say (or am I misunderstanding?):

"Nothing wrong with wiring multiple GFCI receptacles on the same breaker circuit as long as they are all off the LINE side, not the LOAD side."

A GFCI breaker has two sides. On one side is the upstream side from which it "gets" the electricity (wiring leads to the "main"), which is known as the LINE side. The other side is the downstream side, known as the LOAD side, which acts as an extension of the GFCI receptacle, and is therefore anything properly wired to it is protected by the GFCI.

If we want to have regular outlets protected by a GFVU outlet as if they were plugged into it, we can connect such that they "get" their electricity only from the LOAD side of the GFVI outlet.

But, if we want to have other GFCI outlets on the same circuit, we do /not/ want to connect them on the LOAD side. This would place one or more GFCI outlets downstream of the GFCI as if they were plugged into it. If we would daisy chain them this way, it would be like having GFCI outlet ater outlets after outlet plugged into each other. As I mentioned, this isn't helpful and can cause a lot of things to lose power when one faults, complicate debugging, and make resetting everything a pain.

Having said that, anything at a GFCI's LINE terminal and upstream (toward the main) is not protected by the GFCI and can be used to supply another GFCI.

So, for example, if you wanted a string of GFCI's on one circuit, at each GFCI you could run pigtails from the branch circuit to the GFCI outlets LINE terminal, leaving the LOAD terminal unused.

In all questions you, of course, want to pay attention to good wiring, wire routing and protection, wire management, &c practices.