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07-17-2018, 07:10 AM
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#21
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Senior Member
City: Pompano Beach, FL
Join Date: May 2017
Posts: 110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree
That's such BS. Anything you write is inherently copyright, whether marked or not. Marking is just puts you in a better position to defend the copyright and claim damages. And regardless, I have a copy of the Douglass book and it is most certainly copyright, and marked so.
Whether Kaylee is someone acting on their own, or someone fabricated by AC or acting on AC's behalf is only half of the problem. It would take a judge about two seconds to agree that AC content is a copyright infringement of the Douglass book. That's the base problem and it's not going away regardless of who/what Kaylee is. Garmin "bought" that copyright infringement when they bought AC, and AC knew there was alleged issue based on past discussions here on TF. When buying a company, the company typically has to disclose and issues like this, and warrant there are no others. If AC didn't disclose what was required, that would be a problem between Garmin and Jeff.
The Kaylee questions then compounds on top of that. If Kaylee is not a real person acting on their own, but actually the hand of AC, then AC itself is responsible for the copyright infringement. At that point not only did AC know about the problem, but they actually engineered it in the first place and caused it to happen. That could make for a really big problem.
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In simplest terms, the issue is whether the information as arranged is sufficiently original to merit copyright protection. Facts alone are not copyrightable but their organization and display can be-if there is sufficient creativity. Copyright is often not as simple as it appears. And note, you do have to register a copyright to enforce it in the US.
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07-17-2018, 11:14 AM
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#22
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Guru
City: Fort Lauderdale. Florida, USA
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 21,449
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Wifey B: Whether copyright infringement or not, it's still plagiarism. It's the kind of stuff to get you flunked out of school or fired from a job. And if someone knowingly publishes plagiarized information then they're just as guilty whether or not they're the ones who actually plagiarized. Who cares about the legal aspect. Jeffrey's argument goes from didn't, to she may have, to not legally so don't care. Well, I still give it an F. At the very least give the originating resource credit.
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07-17-2018, 12:00 PM
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#23
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Guru
City: Inside Passage Summer/Columbia River Winter
Vessel Name: Alaskan Sea-Duction
Vessel Model: 1988 M/Y Camargue YachtFisher
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 8,050
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Well I sent Garmin an email and also post the following on their FB page:
Garmin, Are you aware of the possible copy right violations related to Active Captain? It would appear a fictitious person named Kaylee plagiarized posting directly from the Douglass guides.
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07-17-2018, 01:08 PM
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#24
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Guru
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 4,309
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Will be interesting to see if you get a response. I know people at garmin but they are aviation so it does no good for me to reach out to them.
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07-17-2018, 02:17 PM
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#25
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Guru
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB
Wifey B: Whether copyright infringement or not, it's still plagiarism. It's the kind of stuff to get you flunked out of school or fired from a job. And if someone knowingly publishes plagiarized information then they're just as guilty whether or not they're the ones who actually plagiarized. Who cares about the legal aspect. Jeffrey's argument goes from didn't, to she may have, to not legally so don't care. Well, I still give it an F. At the very least give the originating resource credit.
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Agree. He's just dug a hole so deep that now dirt is just flying everywhere. I had hoped all the Jeff drama was over post Garmin, but I guess not.....
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
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07-17-2018, 05:29 PM
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#26
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Guru
City: Chicago/Montrose Harbor
Vessel Name: Sea Jay
Vessel Model: Non Trawler ;-) Ask me if it matters LOL
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 512
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The FB posts read like the Jeff of his TF persona- so damn emotionally connected to his perception of truth. Reminds me of a 13 year old pouty little boy
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07-17-2018, 06:02 PM
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#27
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twistedtree
That's such BS. Anything you write is inherently copyright, whether marked or not. Marking is just puts you in a better position to defend the copyright and claim damages. And regardless, I have a copy of the Douglass book and it is most certainly copyright, and marked so.
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07-17-2018, 06:04 PM
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#28
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmarr
The FB posts read like the Jeff of his TF persona- so damn emotionally connected to his perception of truth. Reminds me of a 13 year old pouty little boy
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I thought we were supposed to keep politics out of TF.
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07-17-2018, 06:04 PM
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#29
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,333
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You do all remember Jeffrey thrives on controversy?
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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07-17-2018, 07:21 PM
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#30
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Guru
City: Seattle
Vessel Name: AZZURRA
Vessel Model: Ocean Alexander 54
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 4,309
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Here. Is how I see things. Slowboat points out a questionable coincidence between Kaylee AC and the Douglass guide(facts). Jeffery takes offense that they didn’t come to him directly. We are still no closer to the truth but Jeffery now has less credibility due to all the verbal shucking n jiving instead of posting facts. Plagiarism and copyrights we will leave to the courts. With the change in media and the fact that both are describing land features in non creative styles copyright infringement becomes a difficult case to prove. Still not my problem. On the other hand I now have the Douglas guide for SE Alaska on my SeaIQ App as verified by Slowboat. Now I would be wrestling with the moral concept of fairness using the AC data while not owning the Douglass guide, except I am not planing to boat in SE Alaska any time soon(I could also use the excuse that I don’t have enough facts to know I was doing something morally wrong or I could just have no morals or something between the two)
In the end Slowboat has really opened my eyes. I will be paying a lot more attention to who is reviewing on AC.
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07-17-2018, 08:45 PM
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#31
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Guru
City: Vermont
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 10,097
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For what it's worth, Slowboat did take this up with Jeff a year or more ago. And posted a thread here on TF on the subject as well. All were met with the same response.
__________________
MVTanglewood.com
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07-17-2018, 09:45 PM
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#32
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Guru
City: Southwest MI
Vessel Name: Sobelle
Vessel Model: C-Dory 22 Cruiser
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 1,229
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The problem with most internet supplied input is that you have no information on the qualifications of the person making the entry. Someone who is a licensed captain with 40 years experience is likely to provide more accurate and pertinent information than someone out on their first boat ride. However, anyone can post an entry and to all appearances to the reader, they carry the same weight ("Hey, its on Active Captain, it must be accurate!"). Even if the poster lists their qualifications, there is no way to know if the listed qualifications are true.
While this may be fairly inconsequential for Yelp reviews of a local restaurant, when it comes to maneuvering marine vessels in remote locations, the consequences for inaccurate information can be a lot more serious.
Unfortunately, neither the previous operators of Active Captain or Garmin have the resources to vet every entry they receive to the Active Captain database for accuracy.
This may be stating the obvious, but there are way too many people who believe that if it is on the internet, it's got to be true/accurate/honest. It seems that critical thinking is not something they teach in school these days. Guess it isn't on the test.
Caveat Emptor and all that.
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07-18-2018, 01:56 AM
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#33
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Guru
City: Sydney
Vessel Name: Sojourn
Vessel Model: Integrity 386
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,333
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Kayley`s surname could be Douglass. Or it could be her maiden name, if Kayley be female. That could explain it in a credible way. But if it was, wouldn`t JS would have said so right away.
__________________
BruceK
2005 Integrity 386 "Sojourn"
Sydney Australia
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07-18-2018, 08:37 AM
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#34
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Guru
City: Chicago/Montrose Harbor
Vessel Name: Sea Jay
Vessel Model: Non Trawler ;-) Ask me if it matters LOL
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 512
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And.....he hasn’t engaged Kayley in now what, 2 years, to come forth to vindicate him....I think that’s the telling scenario. The emails he has are probably those feom his alter ego, or 12 year old niece.... kinda fun to play with is actually
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07-18-2018, 09:27 AM
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#35
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Guru
City: Jacksonville
Vessel Name: Alzero
Vessel Model: Hatteras 63' CPMY
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,548
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Perhaps it really IS true that behind every great fortune is a crime......?
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07-18-2018, 09:56 AM
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#36
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Guru
City: Gig Harbor
Vessel Name: Kinship
Vessel Model: North Pacific 43
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 9,046
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssobol
The problem with most internet supplied input is that you have no information on the qualifications of the person making the entry. Someone who is a licensed captain with 40 years experience is likely to provide more accurate and pertinent information than someone out on their first boat ride. However, anyone can post an entry and to all appearances to the reader, they carry the same weight ("Hey, its on Active Captain, it must be accurate!"). Even if the poster lists their qualifications, there is no way to know if the listed qualifications are true.
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I think it is key to remember that AC is crowd sourced information. In general, a crowd-sourced consensus is VERY accurate. Any individual review, information, or opinion is suspect, but when aggregated they can be reliable. The problem is when you only have a few entries to go on.
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