120V outlet wiring

[Comodave]

Beside the fact that K and T wiring only has 2 wires, hot and neutral, no ground wire and expansion is an issue. Here is an excerpt that addresses some of the issues with it.

The 2008 National Electric Code addressed some issues with knob and tube wiring, most notably its high heat dissipation that poses a fire hazard when combined with fiberglass insulation. As a result, the NEC now requires that knob and tube wiring not be in "hollow spaces of walls, ceilings and attics where such spaces are insulated by loose, rolled or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors."

It's important to note, however, that this code is not mandatory. States can choose to follow it at their own discretion.

Knob and tube wiring also poses a problem for insurance companies. Some demand higher premiums from customers with this kind of wiring in their homes, while other companies refuse to insure homeowners at all until the wiring is changed.

Personally I would not live in a house with it. You may think differently. That is your choice. I am not about to risk my loved ones in a house with it.

 

[SoWhat]

I once lived in a house with knob and tube. Seemed safe enough. Not much risk of a short because wires would never touch. Amazed I'm still alive after living in such a dangerous house.

The pennies behind the fuses were probably not code compliant pennies.

 

[SoWhat]

16ga is standard gauge for house AC wiring in lots of boats and houses.

Wire your house with 16awg. Then call your building dept. in for the rough inspection. Post the results.

 

[catalinajack]

16 gauge? Isn't it no less than 14 gauge for 15 amp circuits and 12 gauge for 20 amps?

Wire your house with 16awg. Then call your building dept. in for the rough inspection. Post the results.

 

[rslifkin]

16 gauge? Isn't it no less than 14 gauge for 15 amp circuits and 12 gauge for 20 amps?

Correct

 

[catalinajack]

I respect your opinion and your apparent knowledge. I grew up in a town in New England where I bet more than 1/2 the houses (100s) have knob and tube wiring. House fires are rare and faulty wiring not always the cause. By your standard literally 100s of thousands, more likely millions, of homes should be condemned as unsafe. My town should have burned to the ground 50 years ago, yet, she still stands, intact, old, but intact. Sure, you can cite some anecdotal stories about fires but the overwhelming evidence suggests that this is not a "huge risk" (your words) as you opine.

Beside the fact that K and T wiring only has 2 wires, hot and neutral, no ground wire and expansion is an issue. Here is an excerpt that addresses some of the issues with it.

The 2008 National Electric Code addressed some issues with knob and tube wiring, most notably its high heat dissipation that poses a fire hazard when combined with fiberglass insulation. As a result, the NEC now requires that knob and tube wiring not be in "hollow spaces of walls, ceilings and attics where such spaces are insulated by loose, rolled or foamed-in-place insulating material that envelops the conductors."

It's important to note, however, that this code is not mandatory. States can choose to follow it at their own discretion.

Knob and tube wiring also poses a problem for insurance companies. Some demand higher premiums from customers with this kind of wiring in their homes, while other companies refuse to insure homeowners at all until the wiring is changed.

Personally I would not live in a house with it. You may think differently. That is your choice. I am not about to risk my loved ones in a house with it.

 

[Comodave]

I believe it is a huge risk if it is your house that catches fire while you are sleeping in it.

 

[Comodave]

Here is a bit more about Knob and Tube wiring, more than 28,000 fatal fires per year...


It’s so easy never to think about where the power in your home comes from and goes to, but could there be a potentially lethal killer electrical issue in your attic? In this article, we dispel the myths of wiring and uncover the truth about outdated knob and tube wiring that contributes to more than 28,000 fatal house fires per year.


The National Electrical Code, the National Fire Protection Association, and the American National Standards Institute all recommend or require that knob and tube wiring be completely removed and replaced with approved, code-compliant wiring. Service Detectives wholeheartedly agrees with these agencies and the national code.

Our service experts have seen too many fires, and would never want to risk our Southern Illinois families’ safety by allowing knob and tube to remain. It’s also becoming more and more common for insurance companies to deny coverage based on the presence of knob and tube, and even existing policies can deny claims if knob and tube are discovered to have been the cause of the fire. Many realtors also require the removal and replacement of knob and tube wiring in home inspections before a sale, which can hurt the value of the home and put new owners at risk.

It’s never worth risking your home, yourself, or your family for the sake of saving a little money on replacement wiring. Our service expert’s top tip is to have knob and tube wiring removed adequately by a licensed, bonded, and insured professional.

 

[catalinajack]

Here is a bit more about Knob and Tube wiring, more than 28,000 fatal fires per year...


It’s so easy never to think about where the power in your home comes from and goes to, but could there be a potentially lethal killer electrical issue in your attic? In this article, we dispel the myths of wiring and uncover the truth about outdated knob and tube wiring that contributes to more than 28,000 fatal house fires per year.


The National Electrical Code, the National Fire Protection Association, and the American National Standards Institute all recommend or require that knob and tube wiring be completely removed and replaced with approved, code-compliant wiring. Service Detectives wholeheartedly agrees with these agencies and the national code.

Our service experts have seen too many fires, and would never want to risk our Southern Illinois families’ safety by allowing knob and tube to remain. It’s also becoming more and more common for insurance companies to deny coverage based on the presence of knob and tube, and even existing policies can deny claims if knob and tube are discovered to have been the cause of the fire. Many realtors also require the removal and replacement of knob and tube wiring in home inspections before a sale, which can hurt the value of the home and put new owners at risk.

It’s never worth risking your home, yourself, or your family for the sake of saving a little money on replacement wiring. Our service expert’s top tip is to have knob and tube wiring removed adequately by a licensed, bonded, and insured professional.

Here's a quote from the National Fire Prevention Association website that I just pulled up.

"During this five-year*period, US*fire*departments responded to an estimated average of 354,400*home*structure*fires per year. These*fires*caused an*annual*average of 2,620 civilian deaths; 11,220 civilian*fire*injuries; and $6.9 billion in direct property damage. 2,560 civilian*fire*deaths."

Twenty-eight thousand deaths per year from knob and tube when TOTAL deaths averaged 2,560/year? And that is all causes, not just knob and tube. From where are you getting your numbers?

According to the NFPA, electrical fires are the fourth leading cause of fire deaths and averages 500/year from ALL electrical causes. Your assertion that knob and tube is a "huge risk" is not supported by national fire statistics.

 

[boatpoker]

I respect your opinion and your apparent knowledge. I grew up in a town in New England where I bet more than 1/2 the houses (100s) have knob and tube wiring. House fires are rare and faulty wiring not always the cause. By your standard literally 100s of thousands, more likely millions, of homes should be condemned as unsafe. My town should have burned to the ground 50 years ago, yet, she still stands, intact, old, but intact. Sure, you can cite some anecdotal stories about fires but the overwhelming evidence suggests that this is not a "huge risk" (your words) as you opine.

Tell it to the underwriter

 

[Comodave]

Ok, the numbers in the article I quoted look way off. I still would not own a house with K & T wiring. But if you feel like it go ahead.

 

[CharlieJ]

@Bacchus #40

I'm curious...
Your bio lists ABYC Certified Technician so you must put some weight/ value in that "certification"

I absolutely do. I have over 20 years experience in the recreational marine industry as a Marine Electrician and 21 years of experience as a Naval Engineer, 18 of them in Nuclear Power. In other words, I understand standards and my work reflects that understanding.

When performing the electrical work you outlined that does not meet ABYC (voluntary) standards...
Do you explicitly explain / document to owners that your work does not meet current (maybe even legacy ) ABYC standards?

Of course I do. If you read my resposes for content you would see that I worked with the surveyor and the owner in developing the approach. In one case the underwriter was part of the discussion early on.

How about if they are responding to insurance Cos when correcting survey issues?

Of course. This work was done with everybody's eyes wide open.

It seems like you are crossing at least a moral line if advertising ABYC Certification if you dont follow their STDs.

I follow, taught and write the Standards.

Just my opinion

.
And everyone has one. Some are even informed.

Also curious... was solid copper ever accepted by ABYC? If so, what era?

The use of solid copper pre-dated the development of the ABYC Standards.

 

[Bacchus]

CharlieJ
Thanks for the comprehensive response.
Opinion changed given that level of openness.
Thnx

 

[psneeld]

What I am seeing is that many posters (not just in this thread) forget that the more "expert" or "experienced" you are at something...and are above average in research withing your profession...

.....The more likely a pro understands risk management when it come to finding a compromise solutions and convincing "authority" that exceptions are well within intended guidelines.

 

[Bacchus]

What I am seeing is that many posters (not just in this thread) forget that the more "expert" or "experienced" you are at something...and are above average in research withing your profession...

.....The more likely a pro understands risk management when it come to finding a compromise solutions and convincing "authority" that exceptions are well within intended guidelines.

I agree with that but still have a concern that DIY types may read this and interpret above post as "ABYC Master Tech reported its OK to use/mix solid (untinned?) & stranded wire on boat AC systems" ?

 

[schono]

I have been slowly replacing the 120V wiring on my 1968 Grand Banks 32. I started at the shore power inlet with a Smart Plug and ran it to a Blue Seas EFCI master breaker, through a small Charles isolation transformer, and then to a new 3 circuit breaker panel and a voltage gauge. I still need to replace some of the wiring downstream of the circuit panel to finish the job, but I feel much better about my shore power than I did before!



The old wire was stranded and looks to be original vintage 1968. However, in contrast with the new Ancor wire I'm using, the ground wire is uninsulated versus the green cover on new. And, as commented above, the old stuff is stiff and hard to manipulate to remove! Since I'm not replacing it all at once, I have added ring terminals to the old wire and used terminal blocks where there are connections, replace the old compression couplings. I'm also making sure all outlets have GFCI protection!

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Stranded wire under a screw is a no no as tightening the screw in that configuration tends to break strands of wire.

Don't know what the wiring standard was 40 years ago. Before you start, a survey of your wiring would be a good idea. Make sure the ground isn't tied to the bonding system or the DC negative. Checking for GFI outlets would also be a good idea.

Ted

Agreed, always use a solderless ring terminal to terminate a stranded wire to a screw. Some outlets offer a clamp option, as well as the screw.

However, "Make sure the [AC safety] ground isn't tied to the bonding system or the DC negative" is incorrect. If you are following ABYC Standards, for electrocution prevention, all of these are common. More here https://www.cruisingworld.com/how/inspect-your-grounding-system/

Even 40 years ago Hatteras did not commonly use solid romex style wire, so it's likely been added. You could confirm by looking at the back of your panel (if you are comfortable doing so).

If you are unsure about any of this, call an ABYC Certified electrician, you can find one geographically here www.abycinc.org/recreationalboaters

 

[catalinajack]

You cite bogus statistics and I give you facts and a source and that's your response? Sad.

Tell it to the underwriter

 

[sailalfin]

Hi, for those quoting that ABYC standards are voluntary, I have some news. I have been working in ABYC committees since 1963 and for the last 40 years I have been an expert witness working in the court system. I have this opinion---Juries have made ABYC standards obligatory if you have to go to court. I also worked with USCG standards and those are very limited, ABYC has the ones to follow.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Hi, for those quoting that ABYC standards are voluntary, I have some news. I have been working in ABYC committees since 1963 and for the last 40 years I have been an expert witness working in the court system. I have this opinion---Juries have made ABYC standards obligatory if you have to go to court. I also worked with USCG standards and those are very limited, ABYC has the ones to follow.

While I agree they should be followed, and there are potential legal ramifications of you don't, at least for pro's, you should follow them because they make, in the vast majority of cases, for a safer and more reliable vessel.

 

[rolomart3]

I humbly request to be pointed to the scientific information concerning the obscure physical phenomena that explain the results indicated by the statement: Solid copper work hardens from vibration, over tempers and degrades. I never herd of it. As far as I know material fatigue in wires occurs from bending, not vibration.

Furthermore, I remind everyone that marine alternators have solid copper winding subject to intense and continuous vibration and temperature changes, and I have never herd of it to harden or degrade or over temper. In fact, I do not know what is the meaning of temper here.


There are many myths in boating, with the common denominator always being a more expensive alternative. Here is one: the bad reputation to using soldering in boating. Yet, that is exactly what tinned wire is: copper soldered with tin.


On the other hand, prohibiting the use of biodegradable materials in structural components like decks is conveniently ignored. For the boat manufacturer it is cheaper to use marine plywood whatever that is. And for the boatyard, nothing will open more widely the wallet of a boater than the brown chocolate coming out of a compromised core of a deck, a radar arch or a stringer.


Never forget that surveyors talk. Boatyard operators talk. Marine products stores sales persons talk. Insurance company reps talk. Standardization and recommendation organizations talk. But you are the one that operates the boat facing all the consequences. So under-spending for safety in one area because you blew the budget on fancy boating spending on another area would not spare you from the responsibilities and the consequences.



If the insulation of the copper wire is in good shape and a resistance test shows adequate insulation in humid conditions, consider other areas of safety to use the money planned to spend replacing the solid copper wire.



Some examples where money is better spent than replacing solid copper wires in good operating order include: calibrate instruments, gauges and compasses, recheck hydraulic systems, test GFCIs and over-current circuit breakers, replace exhaust elbows, replace hoses, check and adjust engine mounts, re-tighten connector screws, re-caulk cleats, and clean propeller to name a few.



Happy boating,

 

[Bacchus]

Rolomart3

Several discussions and scientific papers re Cu hardening with vibration.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw2FUq0EjaCDP8iplFcw6BeI&cshid=1596975309921

I think you are misinformed if you think a solder joint is equivalent to tinned stranded wire... individual tinned strands vs a solid mass that creates a stress point where the mass ends. The material is the same or similar alloy but its apples and oranges. Higher quality marine terminal / lugs are tinned Cu for conductance and corrosion protection and they not only allowed but are preferred. Very different than a solder joint.

Similarly with a Cu winding and vibration. Windings are tight and 100% supported. Not so with strung wires.

I think you will find Cu fuel lines not used for similar reasons.

Obviously anyone is free to DIY as you see fit but for me I'd rather follow best practices and do it correctly.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Rolomart3

Several discussions and scientific papers re Cu hardening with vibration.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw2FUq0EjaCDP8iplFcw6BeI&cshid=1596975309921

I think you are misinformed if you think a solder joint is equivalent to tinned stranded wire... individual tinned strands vs a solid mass that creates a stress point where the mass ends. The material is the same or similar alloy but its apples and oranges. Higher quality marine terminal / lugs are tinned Cu for conductance and corrosion protection and they not only allowed but are preferred. Very different than a solder joint.

Similarly with a Cu winding and vibration. Windings are tight and 100% supported. Not so with strung wires.

I think you will find Cu fuel lines not used for similar reasons.

Obviously anyone is free to DIY as you see fit but for me I'd rather follow best practices and do it correctly.

Agreed on all points, and ABYC does prohibit the use of solid copper wire.

This is no myth or boat yard, builder of surveyor conspiracy to drive up the cost of boat building. It's settled science, solid copper wires are more prone to breakage when flexed, and that's far more likely on boats (and cars, trucks and aircraft, all of which use stranded wire exclusively).

Annealed copper fuel and LP gas lines are completely acceptable and ABYC compliant. Copper's only drawback with diesel fuel is its tendency to oxidize the fuel, thereby promoting its degradation. In practice that's not really an issue unless the tank is copper and those are pretty rare.

 

[Bacchus]

Agreed on all points, and ABYC does prohibit the use of solid copper wire.

This is no myth or boat yard, builder of surveyor conspiracy to drive up the cost of boat building. It's settled science, solid copper wires are more prone to breakage when flexed, and that's far more likely on boats (and cars, trucks and aircraft, all of which use stranded wire exclusively).

Annealed copper fuel and LP gas lines are completely acceptable and ABYC compliant. Copper's only drawback with diesel fuel is its tendency to oxidize the fuel, thereby promoting its degradation. In practice that's not really an issue unless the tank is copper and those are pretty rare.

Steve thanks for confirming my thoughts
I'm surprised ABYC allows Cu Fuel / Propane lines. Aren't they subject to the same hardening with flex / vibrations found aboard?

 

[rolomart3]

Rolomart3

Several discussions and scientific papers re Cu hardening with vibration.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...Vaw2FUq0EjaCDP8iplFcw6BeI&cshid=1596975309921

I think you are misinformed if you think a solder joint is equivalent to tinned stranded wire... individual tinned strands vs a solid mass that creates a stress point where the mass ends. The material is the same or similar alloy but its apples and oranges. Higher quality marine terminal / lugs are tinned Cu for conductance and corrosion protection and they not only allowed but are preferred. Very different than a solder joint.

Similarly with a Cu winding and vibration. Windings are tight and 100% supported. Not so with strung wires.

I think you will find Cu fuel lines not used for similar reasons.

Obviously anyone is free to DIY as you see fit but for me I'd rather follow best practices and do it correctly.

Don,


I respectfully disagree for various reasons. With respect to the scientific paper you cited, it supports more my statement than yours. I say this for various reasons:


1. The paper cited is a report about what happened when "Using the apparatus described in the preceding report, the effects of superimposed ultrasonic vibration on compresive deformation (emphasis added) were investigated with several materials...". One of the materials was copper. Electric wires are not subject to compression and therefore the compresive deformation the apparatus provided is not present in electric wires. The study does not apply.



2. This report addresses investigation on metals under strong compression when bathed in strong ultrasonic vibration such as that possibly found in a jet engine. It does not shed any light on a solid piece of copper hanging on a wall with no compression at all.


3. The report further states: "...Of course, there are many factors other than stacking-fault energy which are expected to affect to the deformation and work-hardening. Therefore further investigation on the effect of vibration is necessary."


4. If indeed, the copper wires were to become harder, or to state it more succinctly, were to lose elasticity, who cares? Most of the electric wires in a boat are going nowhere.


As to the soldering in boat electric connections, if we reject soldering in boating we better start throwing away, radars, radios, electronic control cards of toilets, autopilot electric driven hydraulic pumps, variable speed thrusters, inverters, and all other electronic devices plagued with solder joints in their circuit cards.


Yes, stranded-tinned wire is more robust than solid wire. But I reiterate the important point I tried to make: If one wishes to improve safety in the boat, money should be spent on the weakest component not something as strong and durable as an inert piece of copper wire. Rest assured that before one can perceive any difference in wear and tear between stranded-tinned wire and solid copper wire, the effectiveness of the insulation or its connectors of such wire will be long gone.


Respectfully and humbly responded,


Rodolfo J Martinez III

 

[mvweebles]

I shuffled through this thread quickly, clicked on Steve Ds link, and I have a related question that will clearly demonstrate that electrics are my weak link.

How is AC on a boat properly grounded when the boat is disconnected from shore power? The bonding system which is essentially shared with the DC system?

For the record, my 1970 Willard 36 (built in USA) had stranded 120AC wiring (recently rewired with marine tinned wire). No sign of knob and tube in the attic.

Peter

 

[Bacchus]

Rolomart3
I agree the study of vibration on Cu is not wire related but simply confirms that vibration does affect Cu. I'm pretty confident you are safe no one will turn up a study of vibration on solid core wire aboard boats.

ABYC does not ban solder and I think we can all agree lots used in electronics of all kinds. Again if you equate a solder joint on a circuit board with a wire splice its apple's & oranges... similar to tinned wire strands.

Can it be done and not have problems... sure just not a best practice so why do it as a stud practice?
Would I do an emergency repair using wire nuts... you bet. I would be doing it when time permits and in a safe location.

Anyone is absolutely free to do as they please aboard their own boats - I just hate to see questionable practices suggested on forums like this where some may consider them as generally acceptable because they read it on the internet! 'Nuff said

 

[Steve DAntonio]

Steve thanks for confirming my thoughts
I'm surprised ABYC allows Cu Fuel / Propane lines. Aren't they subject to the same hardening with flex / vibrations found aboard?

If it's seamless annealed copper, and that's mandatory for ABYC compliance, for fuel and LP, it is surprisingly flexible and resistant to work-hardening. Some builders still use copper tubing for fuel distribution.

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I shuffled through this thread quickly, clicked on Steve Ds link, and I have a related question that will clearly demonstrate that electrics are my weak link.

How is AC on a boat properly grounded when the boat is disconnected from shore power? The bonding system which is essentially shared with the DC system?

For the record, my 1970 Willard 36 (built in USA) had stranded 120AC wiring (recently rewired with marine tinned wire). No sign of knob and tube in the attic.

Peter

There is no law or rule that governs electrical systems on recreational diesel craft in the US, however, if you want to comply with ABYC recommendations, the AC safety ground should be common with the bonding system, DC negative, DC grounding and lightning systems. This provides the greatest electrocution and lightning strike protection.

If you have an inverter or genset, the neutral and AC safety ground are bonded at those sources of power, only when they are sources of power. And as one might expect, there are exceptions. More on that here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/neutral-to-ground-demystified/

 

[SteveK]

There is no law or rule that governs electrical systems on recreational diesel craft in the US, however, if you want to comply with ABYC recommendations, the AC safety ground should be common with the bonding system, DC negative, DC grounding and lightning systems. This provides the greatest electrocution and lightning strike protection.

If you have an inverter or genset, the neutral and AC safety ground are bonded at those sources of power, only when they are sources of power. And as one might expect, there are exceptions. More on that here https://stevedmarineconsulting.com/neutral-to-ground-demystified/

Steve. We hear of swimmers shock due to leakage from vessels.
Is there no way to have a GFI trip circuit whenever power goes to ground.
Inverters, I think I read that they are often the source for swimmer shock as the auto connect white and ground is not released.