#@%$! Garmin

[Nepidae]

I understand what you are saying, but let me ask, how long do you think you should get support for?

Should the manufacturer slow the progress of the tech field to meet the need of a few who want a long life in the 'software'?

I was talking with Garmin yesterday over the advances this yr, and while you can still get updates on your 7612xsv, you won't be able to get ALL of the current updates. That is a tech thing. I asked about your 7612 and was informed that the unit is 8yrs old. Phones & TV generally don't go that long and yes, we had to replace a TV that worked fine when they changed the signal. TV is much better to watch now. Much clearer screen better pictures, unfortunately programming has hit the toilet, as far as I'm concerned.

The new + versions will have a lot of new features, including menus. I was told they will have a mobile interface like. Active Captain will take front & center to provide updates, including the daily chart updates.

We have an 8616xsv which I will replace in 2 more yrs. I find that if i stay out front, I sell the old MFD, that the cost difference is easier to handle and someone gets a good deal.

They also changed their model for charts. Instead of the 4 o 5 for an area, there are now 4 main charts, N, S, E & W. If you go here (https://www.garmin.com/en-US/MarineChart-MapPurchase/) you will see some current info and while here if you go to Coastal Charts and select Shop Now you will see the areas that the charts will cover.

To get from where we are now will only take 2 charts, S & E which gets us home (we are on the Loop). 1 chart this yr and 1 next. IT is a good thing that Garmin bought Navionics.

I know it is hard to accept change at times but with Garmin, which seems to stay in front of everyone else with either their own R&D or in acquiring tech, I'm staying with the front runner.

1 other item to mention. Before you change horses, call Garmin for support. Even if you don't own Garmin right now. See how they handle that. You might never need to call if you own Garmin but it's good to see how they handle it and I've read about others waiting on hold. I've got better things to do.

Good luck out there & stay safe.

 

[bowball]

I understand what you are saying, but let me ask, how long do you think you should get support for?

Should the manufacturer slow the progress of the tech field to meet the need of a few who want a long life in the 'software'?

I know it is hard to accept change at times but with Garmin, which seems to stay in front of everyone else with either their own R&D or in acquiring tech, I'm staying with the front runner.

Regarding your “front runner” comment, everyone has different opinions. In my own, having spent considerable time looking at the alternatives this past fall, I concluded Furuno was currently the best solution for my completely new installation. Again, the following is just my opinion.

To me Furuno’s latest system was clearly more intuitive with an easier to use user interface. Since it’s a system I was purchasing, the Furuno radar is substantially better than Garmin’s as is the satellite compass. I also preferred the autopilot. There were a few things I liked about the Garmin better. However, overall I voted with my dollars for Furuno (but 5 years ago or perhaps if I had legacy equipment, I would have come to a different conclusion.

Consequently, it’s preferences were reasonable people can disagree, but Garmin certainly wouldn’t be a front runner in my opinion. The TZ3 is awesome (and less expensive btw!)

As for the earlier Microsoft analogy, Microsoft went to great lengths to ensure backward compatibility even when new OS’s were release. The kept the older versions of the OS operational long after new versions were available.

 

[DDW]

I've bought Garmin products that were obsolete in <3 years. No map/chart updates. Yes I've called Garmin support, and waited on hold for a long time to be told "tough luck". My distaste for Garmin is from hard experience, not hearsay or guesswork.

Software updates are different than database (chart) updates. I do not expect Garmin or anyone else to continue to develop new software, or even to fix existing bugs after EOL in a product. However they sold it to do just one thing: display charts. If, in less than 3 years, it can no longer do that, it's a problem for me.

Now you will say, but it still displays the charts it came with right? While that might be true, the world (and US) is cut up into regions. If you bought charts for the NE coast, now the product goes obsolete and you move the boat to the south you need to buy NEW chart sets of that NEW area. Can't get 'em. See how it works?

 

[Nepidae]

No doubt, a personal choice. I've asked before, why is Furuno a better choice?

Is it price, ease of use, better graphics, better charts and whose do they use, what makes the Furuno a better radar? Is that for a radome or an open array or both? How about support that was mentioned. Does Furuno offer a call back for a jammed support line? How about Raymarine?

You mention the satellite compass. What makes Furuno better than the MCS10 that's a Garmin improvement?

It is an easy comment that can be made that 1 manufacturer is better than another. I want to know why.

I'd like to exit this discussion with this. Usually, a company can be rated by its net worth. It is this that allows a company to provide R&D for its products, to make acquisitions and really to stay in business.

Furuno, as a company has '21 sales of $100M, high end of the scale. Net worth wasn't available online.

Raymarine, as a company was just bought, again and their numbers aren't available.

Garmin, company sales for '21 was $1.19B and has a company net worth of $23.36B.

Me, I like the fact that a company will probably stay in business, for a while.

To each his own choice.

Stay safe out there.

 

[bowball]

No doubt, a personal choice. I've asked before, why is Furuno a better choice?

Is it price, ease of use, better graphics, better charts and whose do they use, what makes the Furuno a better radar? Is that for a radome or an open array or both? How about support that was mentioned. Does Furuno offer a call back for a jammed support line? How about Raymarine?

You mention the satellite compass. What makes Furuno better than the MCS10 that's a Garmin improvement?

It is an easy comment that can be made that 1 manufacturer is better than another. I want to know why.

I'd like to exit this discussion with this. Usually, a company can be rated by its net worth. It is this that allows a company to provide R&D for its products, to make acquisitions and really to stay in business.

Furuno, as a company has '21 sales of $100M, high end of the scale. Net worth wasn't available online.

Raymarine, as a company was just bought, again and their numbers aren't available.

Garmin, company sales for '21 was $1.19B and has a company net worth of $23.36B.

Me, I like the fact that a company will probably stay in business, for a while.

To each his own choice.

Stay safe out there.

You called Garmin the front runner so I responded that it didn’t seem necessarily so. . And outlined my reasons.

Furuno was founded in 1938, with their first fish finder in 1948, so I’m confident that they will be around for a while longer.

I’ve spent a small fortune on Garmin gear, primarily for planes, not to mention all their handheld consumer devices, so I know them too.

I agree personal preference. Just pointed out that I voted with my dollars too this past fall. And my friend prefers Garmin, but I don’t think he realizes how much of an improvement the tz3 is.

Should we discuss anchors instead?!

Cheers! All the best.

 

[BandB]

Regarding your “front runner” comment, everyone has different opinions.

Front runner is always the one with the most recent releases, then someone else leaps them.

 

[markpj23]

...I was talking with Garmin yesterday over the advances this yr, and while you can still get updates on your 7612xsv, you won't be able to get ALL of the current updates. ....

So is this where you walk back your claims in post #52? Was uncalled for and wrong.


4 years after purchase is too short a time to be left out of the next technical iteration IMHO. 'nuff said.

 

[BruceK]

In praise of Garmin USA.

Years ago I bought 2 Garmin stand alone GPS/Sounder units on express advice from Garmin Australia they could run on one transducer. They could not. Garmin(Sydney) would not make good fixing the issue the incorrect advice created, were retaining one of the units I sent them at their request, and were ignoring me.

Communication direct to Garmin USA brought about an instant change in the attitude of Garmin Aust(Sydney). Suddenly they could not do enough to help. The withheld unit was returned and a shoot thru the hull install made for a working solution without another haulout and another hole in the hull.

So well done Garmin USA. And belatedly well done, Garmin Aust(Sydney).

 

[RobertLeatch]

I still like and use Garmin but I'd have to agree with Bruce regarding Garmin AU vs Garmin US.

I'm in the process of upgrading from 5012 MFDs to 8412xsd MFDs and also installing a new 24xHd radar. Was looking at the option of using the existing 5012s as dedicated radar displays (hate throwing away working devices). On the AU website the list of compatible devices for that mix is completely different from on the US site. Eventually spoke to AU technical support who (eventually) confirmed that the US website was correct (the 24xHD would work fine on the 5012). On the AU website "compatibility" isn't just a technical issue but also seems to reflect local market supportability and/or marketing preferences.

 

[ranger58sb]

Garmin doesn't issue firmware updates for obsolete plotters, but as far as I know, they do issue chart updates. Not "Navionics" charts, "Garmin" charts.

When we got this boat last Summer, with a working Garmin 7612xsc MFD plus radar and sonar, I was able to get both software update and chart update (G2 to G3).

No clue yet about additional (annual?) chart updates.

I asked about your 7612 and was informed that the unit is 8yrs old. Phones & TV generally don't go that long and yes, we had to replace a TV that worked fine when they changed the signal.

Ummm... our phones are 10 years old, one laptop is 11 years old, another is 8 years old... and our home TVs are all from right after the switch to digital transmission, circa mid 2009.

-Chris

 

[cat38skip]

Garmin compatibility

Excuse the rant BUT...


7612xsv chartplotter bought by PO for $3700 a mere 4 years ago is now incompatible with the new Navionics charts. And all that remains is for me to wait until the G2 / G3 charts are no longer updated for this unit so I can toss it in the trash...

This has been a major problem with Garmin. Their planned obsolescence. Never backward compatible. New hardware can't read earlier chart-cards. Propriatary chart cards, Chart updates not available for older equipment...
Rant-in-agreement over,
Deep breath ... pour a glass of wine.

 

[BandB]

This has been a major problem with Garmin. Their planned obsolescence. Never backward compatible. New hardware can't read earlier chart-cards. Propriatary chart cards, Chart updates not available for older equipment...
Rant-in-agreement over,
Deep breath ... pour a glass of wine.

More and more, backward compatibility becomes impossible, especially when bringing other products into the Garmin fold. Often it requires maintaining two systems and they aren't willing to do so.

 

[Nepidae]

Garmin bashing

I think I've read enough about how Garmin has left some in the dust as it pursues bigger & better electronics.

SOOO, let me ask, who does it better?

What manufacturer supports their products better than Garmin?

It is really easy to say, imagine a whine here, that this or that company has left me in the dust, has shortened the life on their products so I have to buy new, charges exorbitant prices for updates to their electronics and even more for the chart updates.

What I'd really like to see is someone, anyone do some research and come up with not only the whine but also a solution. You know, something like Garmin didn't treat me right so I did some homework and found that XYZ company does a better job because of their, 1reason, 2 reason, 3 reason compared to what Garmin does for reason 1 then reason 2 and then reason 3. I think that is called substantiating their comments.

SO, let me ask, WHO DOES A BETTER JOB?

Let's presume that a company who has a strong bottom line has the ability to perform both R&D and market research to bring the best products to market. They can hire the best people and have the most up to date manufacturing facilities. That is some of what a strong bottom line can provide. Would you agree?

I recently looked up a few facts.

Raymarine was just purchased, again, and there are no '21 figures for the company. Ray was put on the block a couple of years ago, sold off Flur and has been languishing waiting for a buyer. Thinking about a strong bottom line and the products left on the shelf would probably not be the best choice to buy at this time. How about support as well?

Someone mentioned Furuno. It is said that Capts like that product and it is on ALL of the charter boats. Well, Google told me that Furuno, for '21 had sales in the $10-100M range. With numbers like that, how many charter boats is that product in, UNLESS, the product is very old.

Can we agree that the 2 best chart companies are CMAP & Navionics?

Furuno uses Raster & Vector charts, (https://furunousa.com/en/products/gps_and_chart_plotters). NOAA won't be supplying them much longer and Raymarine uses something called Lighthouse charts (https://www.raymarine.com/marine-charts/lighthouse-charts.html). Don't know who makes them or what is behind them.

Do you really want to put the safety of your crew & boat in the hands of charts from a source that can be questionable?

Now, I've been saving the best for last.

Garmin is a $24B company. Sales for '21 were $1.6B. They have the bottom-line to develop or buy the best technology.

In this discussion, as far as I'm concerned, I'd like to add that I was discussing with a Garmin tech about 2-3 days ago and brough up the support of a 7612xsv MFD and was informed that that product is 8yrs old. That the 8yo product will still get updates but not the best updates because the computer inside the MFD of an 8yo product will not support the newest charts or other capabilities.

Do I really want an 8yo phone? I can probably make a phone call but might have a problem taking pictures of my grandkids. How about a 10yo computer. Do I really want to wait 5min while it boots up? Me, NO.

I can only wait for the uproar of comments.

IN CLOSING, for me, NAV products are A PERSONAL CHOICE. You do your own due diligence and make the purchase. I used to own a 7612xsv before my current 8616xsv. In probably 2 yrs I will be updating again and put my 8616 on the market. Anyone interested?

Stay safe out there.

 

[bowball]

@nepidae

You are now sounding a bit strident in your support of Garmin; obviously you are happy in your choice so that is what matters. I chose differently so reasonable people can disagree and situations can vary and trusted installers may have alternative recommendations. There is no wrong choice. No need to defend your choice.

 

[Barking Sands]

I am generally a Garmin guy. Someone here talked about the Furuno TZT3 interface and I watched a few videos. It does look pretty slick. I think I would prefer that to my brand new Garmin. We are strictly talking about the user interface though.

But I am not sure that all the Garmin products being stranded are planned obsolescence. I think some of it was the nature of progress as well as the logistics of some of their acquisitions in recent history. If I had to bet I would bet that as of right now, in the current configuration of the newest Navionics Vision+ and the latest and best plotters that you will likely get a decent amount of useable time out of them. Where Garmin is as of now seems to be where they wanted to go. You had to know that when they bought Navionics...but could not run Navionics on their plotters that big changes would be coming.

The other reason I am stuck with Garmin is because I work for a company that is a Garmin affiliate. So I get the 35% discount..lol. So I can put up with a lot for 35% :lol:

 

[danderer]

Someone mentioned Furuno. It is said that Capts like that product and it is on ALL of the charter boats. Well, Google told me that Furuno, for '21 had sales in the $10-100M range. With numbers like that, how many charter boats is that product in, UNLESS, the product is very old.

Can we agree that the 2 best chart companies are CMAP & Navionics?

Furuno uses Raster & Vector charts, (https://furunousa.com/en/products/gps_and_chart_plotters). NOAA won't be supplying them much longer and Raymarine uses something called

Indeed it is a personal choice. And you're entitled to make your opinion/choice, but not make your own facts.

Furuno's 2021 Financial Statement shows sales of $774MM, $592MM of which came from their marine business. See https://www.furuno.co.jp/Portals/0/images/ir/library/annualreport/ar2021_furuno.pdf. For comparison Garmin's marine segment generated $658MM in 2020. See https://www.garmin.com/en-US/investors/earnings/

NOAA will continue to be supplying vector charts. Raster charts are going away for everyone, including Garmin (I used to run them on my 76XX displays).

..and as for "someone" mentioning Furuno.. I seem to recall more than one person mentioning them.

 

[BandB]

Indeed it is a personal choice. And you're entitled to make your opinion/choice, but not make your own facts.

Furuno's 2021 Financial Statement shows sales of $774MM, $592MM of which came from their marine business. See https://www.furuno.co.jp/Portals/0/images/ir/library/annualreport/ar2021_furuno.pdf. For comparison Garmin's marine segment generated $658MM in 2020. See https://www.garmin.com/en-US/investors/earnings/

NOAA will continue to be supplying vector charts. Raster charts are going away for everyone, including Garmin (I used to run them on my 76XX displays).

..and as for "someone" mentioning Furuno.. I seem to recall more than one person mentioning them.

And he talked about charter captains and Furuno. Not charter captains, commercial boats, ships, and Megayachts. It's important because Furuno has to be responsive to a more demanding customer and one depending on extended support.

Another area in which Furuno differs that depresses their recreational sales. They don't have captive deals with manufacturers.

That said, as a strong supporter of Furuno, I'll say there is nothing that bad about any of the others. We had Garmin on our Sunseeker we used for the loop and in total for more than 12,000 nm. We had no complaints. I'd take the comments on life of products and support with Garmin as a simple warning, not an avoid at all risk. Try to purchase their products near the beginning of the life rather than at the end. If the product is 6 years old, then perhaps hesitate. If it's 1 year old, they buy it, knowing it's likely remaining life is around 7 years. There are complaints when a brand isn't coming out with improvements and then a complaint when they discontinue support of old products. It's a no-win situation.

I can remember in my youth when 3 years was a very long time between versions of software. Now, it's longer. Going to toss Microsoft Windows (personal versions, not server versions) out as a little history.

1.0-1985
2.0-1987
3.0-1990
3.1-1992
95-1995
98-1998
2000-2000
XP-2005
Vista-2008
7-2009
8-2012
10-2014
11-2021

I find nothing wrong with Garmin's strategy. They are aggressively trying to stay at the lead of the industry with acquisitions, integrations of those acquisitions, and improvements.

I think it will be interesting to follow Simrad, now that they're owned by Brunswick. Definitely adds a large captive customer, however that customer isn't cruising but is small recreational and fishing boat customer.

Another misrepresentation by Nepidae who says Raymarine "sold off Flur and has been languishing waiting for a buyer." First, FLIR was the parent, having purchased Raymarine. Second, FLIR Systems, including Raymarine, was purchased by Teledyne via merger and is now Teledyne FLIR. The price of FLIR in the transaction was $8 Billion. This added FLIR's $1.5 Billion annual sales to Teledyne's $3 Billion.

 

[DDW]

The fact that Garmin is a large company with a small marine business is as much cause for concern as hope. They could make a management decisions tomorrow to shut it down. Same is true of Teledyne of course. On business basics alone, Furuno is the most stable, having mainly a marine business to tend to and profit from.

The source for most chart data is the same: NOAA and other government agencies. There is no mystery where the Raymarine charts come from, in the US they are derived from NOAA vector charts. NOAA is not going to discontinue vector charts. Raymarine can also display Navionics and C-Map charts.

Happy that Nepidae loves his Garmin. I'm done with them, I already have all the doorstops I need.

 

[bowball]

The other reason to support Furuno, Raymarine, etc is that Garmin could act like a monopolist when it dominates an industry segment., to our detriment.

Looking at the industry financial segment for Garmin, their profit margin on aviation is far far higher than any other segment and advertising expense is zero. Consequently, it can reasonably be inferred they have monopolistic pricing.

Garmin reports they are spending twice as much on r&d on marine than Furuno, which is positive, but does that include stereos etc? It could be misleading as I imagine much of that r&d is allocated from corporate r&d so how directed to marine is it really?

We want several viable competitors to keep innovation, customer support and pricing competition robust.

 

[bowball]

BandB - those were the new product windows releases. In between those there were many major and minor releases.

 

[ranger58sb]

What manufacturer supports their products better than Garmin?

SO, let me ask, WHO DOES A BETTER JOB?

Can we agree that the 2 best chart companies are CMAP & Navionics?

Furuno uses Raster & Vector charts, NOAA won't be supplying them much longer...

In this discussion, as far as I'm concerned, I'd like to add that I was discussing with a Garmin tech about 2-3 days ago and brough up the support of a 7612xsv MFD and was informed that that product is 8yrs old. That the 8yo product will still get updates but not the best updates because the computer inside the MFD of an 8yo product will not support the newest charts or other capabilities.

Do I really want an 8yo phone? I can probably make a phone call but might have a problem taking pictures of my grandkids. How about a 10yo computer. Do I really want to wait 5min while it boots up? Me, NO.

IN CLOSING, for me, NAV products are A PERSONAL CHOICE.
.

In order... can't say, really. I've inherited a limited Garmin system, seems to work OK, saw some errors on the charts. I only have personal experience with Raymarine and Furuno. Didn't have the Ray units long enough to need tech support. Furuno tech support, mostly only about when I couldn't figure out how to adjust a setting, was always perfect... even for inherited units that were getting on toward 20 years old. I DID have to physically replace a Furuno GPS unit that aged off due to satellite rollovers; that GPS unit was about 19 year old at the time.

Not really, Haven't ever used Navionics. Had C-Map on the earlier Raymarine plotter, seemed good. But that's not a lot of exposure, so no vote. NOAA charts have been good.

NOAA will continue to provide NOAA vector charts.

I don't buy phones to take pictures (although it's a pleasant by-product feature), nor do I buy phones or computers just to get the latest features. My 11-year-old ship's laptop does indeed take 3.5 minutes to boot up sometimes, but once booted everything's fast enough. When it comes to installed nav equipment, I want to buy once per boat, never again. Can't imagine any "new" features nifty enough to make me care.

And finally: agree.

-Chris

 

[BandB]

When it comes to installed nav equipment, I want to buy once per boat, never again.

-Chris

So you just buy a new boat when the equipment gets old.

 

[JDCAVE]

Garmin makes marine stuff? I didn’t know that. I thought they just made GPS’s for cars? [emoji57]

My Furuno open array radar is 20 years old and Furuno still supports it.

Jim

 

[ranger58sb]

So you just buy a new boat when the equipment gets old.

 

[Barking Sands]

Finished up the Garmin install today...

 

[BandB]

Finished up the Garmin install today...

Looks great. Just don't depend on it in the Exumas until they get it straightened out.

 

[Barking Sands]

Looks great. Just don't depend on it in the Exumas until they get it straightened out.

LOL...I was kidding. That's the Garmin G5000 system in the Citation Latitude. A little over a half a million or more depending on details.

 

[BandB]

LOL...I was kidding. That's the Garmin G5000 system in the Citation Latitude. A little over a half a million or more depending on details.

And I wasn't kidding about the Exumas although was totally asleep to the airplane. It's been a very long and exhausting couple of days. Now watching the Super Bowl and just trying to catch our breath.

 

[Helmsman]

I spoke with a former employee of Vector. He wasn’t included in future product discussions in regards to Vector products now that Garmin owns them. Rumors, though, are that the older AIS units will be sunsetted at some point in the next couple of years. The Vesper Cortex will be “ok” for the next two or three years. I bought the Cortex for an April install. So, I may end up with an issue.

I went with Furuno for the majority of my systems, due to the technical phone support I received from them in the evaluation period prior to purchasing. Every time I spoke with Furuno, I received excellent experienced advice. I had to wait for call backs twice. One wait was an hour, the second was about two hours. I chose Furuno because they support their legacy equipment. I chose against Raymarine because they sunsetted a two year old plotter and their support was mainly through their excellent forum, which I understand is no longer available.

I chose against Garmin, due to their reputation for sunsetting equipment in three or four years, and due to their reputation for proprietary interfaces. Some of this perception came from talking with multiple technicians at a week long set of seminars last fall. I figure they know the issues best, since they are the interface between the customers and the manufacturer. Garmin’s recent decision to not continue the Navionics relationship with MapMedia cemented my decision to not use Garmin. Techs also told me that Garmin and Simrad offer incentives to techs to sell their equipment. It is my understanding that Furuno doesn’t, though I didn’t specifically hear that.

They all are similar in their offerings, with reputations for different types of equipment being better for some than others. I don’t like sunsetting, the TZ3 interface is much better than the others based upon the number of clicks to get “somewhere” in their screens, and was more intuitive to me, so I went with Furuno. That was the right decision for me.

 

[Steve1.0]

"I spoke with a former employee of Vector."


I that may have been Victor. Roger now has that position. Aaandd.. Clarance is now in charge of sunsetting AIS equipment. He's waiting for clearance to proceed with the sale. I called urgently for info on availability. Everyone aboard was counting me.


Thank you Leslie Nielsen