When is a WIP too much?

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man n black

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We have the opportunity to buy a WIP luxury ocean crossing trawler.....

The question is when does a WIP become too much?

Short story...less than 10 years old.....outside has a recent repaint and likely needs teak refurbishing along with a few other cosmetic fixes....Inside is an easy gut and open canvas for us...Boat with about 2500 hours total in calmish waters...redundant Simrad elecronics...MAN engines don't look to have ever been serviced on a short cursory inspection....some hydraulics seem to not be working (lift) , but others seem fine (passerelle)

I'm of 2 opinions....I could buy this for WAAYYYYY below going rate just based on it needing a complete interior gut and redo, exterior refurb....but I can have exactly what I want in a real blue water ocean going vessel for below market cost with a little bit of elbow grease....

Or it could be a complete mechanical nightmare in which case putting my stamp on the interior won't matter because all my refurb budget would be spent on mechanical issues.....

Where do I draw the line? Or better yet, is there a great or easy way to make sure this boat is sound from a mechanical standpoint? Pitfalls?

Ch
 
I am bewildered myself as what a whip trawler is too and even if I knew...what the OP is really worried about?
 
Sounds like 10 years with zero maintenance. Catching up with deferred maintenance can be expensive. Some things could go from merely 'maintain' to 'replace'. You don't indicate boat size or engine size, but if ocean crossing then it ought to be reasonably large, by TF standards ....

Just a few moments ago I was reading about a guy who bought a boat with MAN 800HP engines. They were 5 yo, and had not had the prescribed 2 year service. No problem, just do it, right? It was only $15k ! Now smaller and older engines might be a lot less. But high service cost does seem to be the achilles heel of MAN's, an otherwise really good engine IMO.
 
A <10yo 2500 hour boat needs a total refit?
To answer the OP`s question:
Q."Where do I draw the line? Or better yet, is there a great or easy way to make sure this boat is sound from a mechanical standpoint? Pitfalls?"
A. Mechanical Survey
TF seems weird today.
 
So you are considering a "project" boat.


The challenge with a "project" boat is that you might tend to underestimate the real costs of taking your "great deal" from where it is now, to where you envision it.

This can lead you to having much more dollars in the boat than you could buy an equilvent model for.

In order for a project boat to be worth while you need to have the skills to accurately estimate the costs, in order to come up with a purchase price.

Do you either have those skills, or have someone in your employ that you trust with your dollars to have those skills?
 
Find a good surveyor and talk to him/her explaining what you want to do.
You will also need a mechanical survey. A few $$ now, relatively, could save you a lot of grief and expense.

What is the hull material? If it is metal then you need someone who can properly assess the condition.

If you really want to gut the interior then a conversation with a shipwright or marine carpenter skilled in cabinetry may be in order.

There have been more than a few people who have done what you are contemplating and it backfired because they did not have a clue about costs to bring the boat up to their standards. The stars were obscuring the reality.

It could be a good deal but get some advice from qualified people who can actually inspect, assess and give you some serious advice and values.
 
To answer some queations...yes WIP is work in progress...the hull material is FRP.

Thanks to the helpful responders so far.

As far as projects goes...The current owner of this boat removed almost all of the furniture...what is left is either dated or not well taken care of..as far as total gut...I mean all the rest of the inside furniture and floors need redoing due to either color or condition. Probably the appliances need a looksee.....The wheel house didn't look too bad...switches and some stuff is dated but in decent condition..Fly bridge switches surely need replacing and there is ZERO furniture or canvas outside...the teak on all decks and rails needs a refresh..The boat is less than 10 years old but neglected in service and upkeep except for new paint on the hull and bottom...Things like the anchor locker were super clean, though the engine room smelled and felt of oils and I know the boat has been sitting for about 1 year or more unused..

As far as our skills go...we have no problems doing remodel type demo, and completing many a home refurbishment jobs (short of complex electrical or complex plumbing)...I have much better than average boat buyer mechanical skills as I've been building cars, motorcycles and such for 30 years...I have a fair amount of common rail Cummins engine experience as I service the one in my truck and but no MAN engine experience..

We are contemplating a really low ball offer largely because of our ability to do the refinishing...so we have yet see/hear the engines or gennies run..and the owners rep wasn't able to get the a hydraulic actuated door to open for a looksee...The engines and hydraulic mechanical stuff is what is concerning us greatly as to my trained eye the valve covers have never been off these engines so I'm thinking no 60 hour retorquing of the heads nor valve adjustment since new (now has approx. 2500 hours) ...so since we've not made an offer yet..no mechanical inspection or survey/sea trial has been scheduled.

The boat is currently sitting in a marina in a largely English speaking European country so it's a trek to do that stuff but not a real problem...

Anyone know approximately the cost to move a nearly 80ft boat from the Med to say the Carolinas or West Coast USA?



Hope that helps

Ch
 
Last edited:
man n black said:
We have the opportunity to buy a WIP luxury ocean crossing trawler.....

The question is when does a WIP become too much?

Short story...less than 10 years old.....outside has a recent repaint and likely needs teak refurbishing along with a few other cosmetic fixes....Inside is an easy gut and open canvas for us...Boat with about 2500 hours total in calmish waters...redundant Simrad elecronics...MAN engines don't look to have ever been serviced on a short cursory inspection....some hydraulics seem to not be working (lift) , but others seem fine (passerelle)

I'm of 2 opinions....I could buy this for WAAYYYYY below going rate just based on it needing a complete interior gut and redo, exterior refurb....but I can have exactly what I want in a real blue water ocean going vessel for below market cost with a little bit of elbow grease....

Or it could be a complete mechanical nightmare in which case putting my stamp on the interior won't matter because all my refurb budget would be spent on mechanical issues.....

Where do I draw the line? Or better yet, is there a great or easy way to make sure this boat is sound from a mechanical standpoint? Pitfalls?

Ch
Click to expand...



What make and model is this WIP :confused:
 
"Anyone know approximately the cost to move a nearly 80ft boat from the Med to say the Carolinas or West Coast USA?"

On her own bottom?

Or in a boat transport? Perhaps $35-50+K

Have it operational BEFORE you buy it.
 
Like the death star, it must be made OPERATIONAL..! :D
 
FF said:
"Anyone know approximately the cost to move a nearly 80ft boat from the Med to say the Carolinas or West Coast USA?"

On her own bottom?

Or in a boat transport? Perhaps $35-50+K

Have it operational BEFORE you buy it.
Click to expand...

I would think at least double FF numbers to East Coast, and 3 x for West Coast.

The strip-out might be because it wont sell, and your low ball offer might work. Still, you do need to know how much its gonna cost for it to become operational before you finalise. Perhaps low ball offer subject to adjustment after engine/mechanical survey?

Were it me, I'd get it sorted in its current location and spend at least one season cruising in Europe. Then you could do final R&M before sailing back on its own bottom. The shipping cost is dead money, better to spend it on the boat.
 
Greetings,
Mr. mnb. As suggested, survey, survey, survey. Until you have a full and accurate assessment of the mechanicals you have no idea how deep this money pit may be. I know nothing about Man diesels other than they went through a stage where they were termed "Man grenades" (Prone to exploding, I suspect). Tough call, I know, but I'm sure you're aware that "good deals" often aren't.

I've looked at my share of WIP's but my Admiral has always dragged me back down to earth.

Just saw post #13. Good advice. Then, she can cross on her own bottom as mentioned.
 
Last edited:
Good advice all...Ironically it was the Admiral rhat prompted me to consider this boat as a WIP...

I considered crossing her on her own bottom but

1. I don't really want to be dead in the water in the middle of the Atlantic...

2. This boat needs enough inside work to be comfortable that it is almost not worth moving our tools, electronics, furniture....lives etc...

I would consider moving her on a large ship to somewhere it would be easier for us to complete the refurbishment if she were mechanically sound beforehand and the price was right....otherwise I'll keep looking at like models..

For the purposes of shipping is weight a factor or just length? If so she's a big girl at 220k pounds...

Ch
 
man n black said:
Boat with about 2500 hours total in calmish waters...redundant Simrad elecronics...MAN engines don't look to have ever been serviced on a short cursory inspection....some hydraulics seem to not be working (lift) , but others seem fine (passerelle)

Where do I draw the line? Or better yet, is there a great or easy way to make sure this boat is sound from a mechanical standpoint? Pitfalls?
Click to expand...


Factory-recommended service intervals on MAN diesels are expensive, although that could potentially works itself out as you negotiate overall purchase price. Boat neighbor has 800-hp V10s, and I think he said the 1000-hour service was big bucks. Suggest you call MAN to discuss before deciding. Might need engine serial numbers...

-Chris
 
Even with the best surveys, an itemized list from the yard, perfect weather and a rosary, the work itself will uncover more problems that must be handled. The hidden fuel tank seepage. The cutlass bearing leak. The sanitation hose rot. The rat that chewed all the electronics. And yes, yard mistakes.
Unless you have a healthy contingency budget, my advice would be keep looking, on these shores, for the boat that speaks to you.
 
If the boat is only 10 years old and is already in the bad shape you describe I would really be careful to anything mechanical and electrical and to everything that cannot be seen like tanks, plumbing etc. If the PO was not taking care of anything visible, great chance he did not take care of the engine either or to anything else aboard.

On the WIP side, and considering the shape of the boat, think about how long you will need to rebuild a 80 feet boat from bilge to deck.

L.
 
man n black said:
To answer some queations...yes WIP is work in progress...the hull material is FRP.

Thanks to the helpful responders so far.

As far as projects goes...The current owner of this boat removed almost all of the furniture...what is left is either dated or not well taken care of..as far as total gut...I mean all the rest of the inside furniture and floors need redoing due to either color or condition. Probably the appliances need a looksee.....The wheel house didn't look too bad...switches and some stuff is dated but in decent condition..Fly bridge switches surely need replacing and there is ZERO furniture or canvas outside...the teak on all decks and rails needs a refresh..The boat is less than 10 years old but neglected in service and upkeep except for new paint on the hull and bottom...Things like the anchor locker were super clean, though the engine room smelled and felt of oils and I know the boat has been sitting for about 1 year or more unused..

As far as our skills go...we have no problems doing remodel type demo, and completing many a home refurbishment jobs (short of complex electrical or complex plumbing)...I have much better than average boat buyer mechanical skills as I've been building cars, motorcycles and such for 30 years...I have a fair amount of common rail Cummins engine experience as I service the one in my truck and but no MAN engine experience..

We are contemplating a really low ball offer largely because of our ability to do the refinishing...so we have yet see/hear the engines or gennies run..and the owners rep wasn't able to get the a hydraulic actuated door to open for a looksee...The engines and hydraulic mechanical stuff is what is concerning us greatly as to my trained eye the valve covers have never been off these engines so I'm thinking no 60 hour retorquing of the heads nor valve adjustment since new (now has approx. 2500 hours) ...so since we've not made an offer yet..no mechanical inspection or survey/sea trial has been scheduled.

The boat is currently sitting in a marina in a largely English speaking European country so it's a trek to do that stuff but not a real problem...

Anyone know approximately the cost to move a nearly 80ft boat from the Med to say the Carolinas or West Coast USA?



Hope that helps

Ch
Click to expand...

So...

I get this idea, and correct me if I'm wrong...

Are you contemplating this boat as a DIY in that you are doing the work?
Or
Are you contemplating hiring a competent shipyard to do the work?

If you are going to do the work yourself, buy an already seaworthy boat and go cruising. You're probably years of labor from having a operational boat, and thats if you are skilled in all the various disipines required for a refit.

If you are hiring a shipyard, then break out your checkbook. Fortunately or unfortunately I am extremely familiar with doing a full on refit of a 50' 10 year old neglected boat in the PACNW. Even at a "refit rate" or a discounted labor rate you are going to pay $80 per hour for skilled craftsmen/technicians. Thats not just for time "doing" thats for time thinking, plotting, planning, and figuring things out. Thats what you get with a large refit, allot of labor hours are spent deciding how to best tackle a certain job and you have to pay for that time.

As far as getting a 80' to the west coast from europe...

I was quoted somethere in the 30K range for getting my fully operational boat from Port Everglades to Italy, and another 30K if I wanted it taken from Ensenada to Fort Everglades. My guess is that you'll be into it a hundred k just getting the boat home, and probably more than that.
 
Simple, when the price of time and or health exceeds the price in dollars. You need all three to enjoy boating. Lots of red flags indicate she is a broken dream. If your dream is to resurrect a broken dream then by all means have at her. It's only money and time at this point. But if you really want to continuously be at sea or perhaps on a remote part of the planet then figure out what your willing to pay for that first. This one sounds like your going to spend two years living in the yard. Not fun even if you are under 30.
 
If the country is on the Atlantic, get a price to bring it to SE FL. Get the service price for the engines. Knock those two numbers off your asking price. While I wouldn't want to pay Ft. Lauderdale prices to refit a boat, that's likely where the delivery ship comes in. Also, should have a choice of engine service dealers. Once it's mechanically sound, you could move it elsewhere on the East coast to finish your refit. Then cruise it through the canal if you want it on the West Coast.

Ted
 
cafesport,
You make many things seem simple.
But this really is simple.
But simple often becomes complex.
What happens to simple when one tries to tally up all the stuff wrong w the boat? Then more problems are found. And more. And more........
 
don't walk, RUN away from this.

If you want a project boat....get one with a better history, and closer to home

If you're trying to get more boat than you can afford...get a smaller one that is operational at least....

If you have so much time and money you don't know what to do with it, start a charity...

If you want a boat, buy something that at least runs and floats.
 
If what you want is a project, then buy a project boat. If what you want is a boat, then buy a boat.

Many, many unfinished projects (this one, perhaps?) were previously bought by someone who wanted a boat and mistakenly thought that buying a project boat was the way to get one cheaply. No. Not at all. In the long run, a project boat will almost always cost you more (most certainly, if you count your own time and effort as being worth anything at all) than if you had simply spent the money in the first place to buy a boat that was ready to go (or very nearly so).

As long as you are aware that you are not buying a boat, you are buying a PROJECT (which one day may, perhaps, become a boat), then you are probably on solid ground.

Good luck.
 
FF said:
"Anyone know approximately the cost to move a nearly 80ft boat from the Med to say the Carolinas or West Coast USA?"

On her own bottom?

Or in a boat transport? Perhaps $35-50+K

Have it operational BEFORE you buy it.
Click to expand...

I'd guess more in the $60-80k range based on recent quotes.
 
man n black said:
I'm of 2 opinions....I could buy this for WAAYYYYY below going rate just based on it needing a complete interior gut and redo, exterior refurb....
Click to expand...

You lost me with this sentence. You don't have the knowledge to determine the cost of bringing it to decency so you can't possibly know the going rate. The going rate for a piece of junk boat is $1 and they are periodically sold for that in Key West.

Oh and my quote of price to get it to US was to South Florida. You can change my $60-80k to $100-120k for west coast. Yes, new boat builders ship for far less, but you're not a builder. You might find a fly-by-night broker who will do it for less but you take your chances.

The only way to determine the value of this boat to you as it sits is to get a survey which includes all costs to bring the boat to a usable condition, get the shipping price, then look at the time and effort you'll have to put in and a value, if you value your time. Increase the surveyors estimate by about 50% for problems that will be identified later.

I cannot imagine that a boat in the condition you describe can justify shipping it across the Atlantic. At $1 it could be overpriced. If you're serious, then time to hire surveyors, one for the boat, one for the engines, although I'm doubting the engines can even be surveyed without spending money to get the operational and get the boat running.

We've had one house flipper previously here. I say that since you mention what you can do on a house. She did a beautiful job on a Hatteras, which was in decent mechanical condition. She used it less than a year.

I know a man who makes money on boats like this. How? He has his own boatyard and lets them work on the boats when business is slow, during their off season. He is in no hurry for completion. He buys at salvage prices. He knows enough to estimate what it will take and what it will be worth after and he undertakes no deal that won't allow him to at least double his money. I would lose an arm and a leg on a boat like this as I'd have to pay for all work, I'd have no idea how to value it for purchasing, and I'd lack the patience for two and three year projects.
 
Already been said...you should decide if you want to work on a boat or if you want to go cruising.

And..if you want to work on a boat I have to believe there are some WIPs a lot closer where you can put the $50k Plus into the boat rather than moving it.

Opinions are like........
 
First question might be what are you going to DO with an 80ft boat?

Even if it were free how do you plan on using that volume?

Second question is have you checked costs of slip space for such a vessel?

You may find its $20K+ a year just for dockage .
 
Benthic2 said:
don't walk, RUN away from this.

If you want a project boat....get one with a better history, and closer to home

If you're trying to get more boat than you can afford...get a smaller one that is operational at least....

If you have so much time and money you don't know what to do with it, start a charity...

If you want a boat, buy something that at least runs and floats.
Click to expand...

And I will say what many must be thinking:
1. If you have to ask the question, you do not have the skills to get this project done.
2. Why are you the only person who thinks this is such a good deal. IOW, the boat is in Europe, assuming VAT is paid, why would not some local think this is a great deal? Since they don't. Why would you think it's a smart idea to buy, transport and then fix?
Which then bring us back to #1.
 
All new exterior paint on a 10 year old otherwise neglected boat seems odd.
 
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