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Old 04-06-2020, 05:37 AM   #1
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Wagner 700 helm pump, HELP

Both my helm pumps are leeking from the shaft seal, i have got new seals but they look to big to knock in. the old seals were "O" rings but the new ones are "U" shaped with an iner spring on the seal. can anyone advise please if i have the right seals, part No: 500013 from Wagner.
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Old 04-06-2020, 10:22 PM   #2
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Parts for 700 pump attached. Part number agrees and picture looks like cup seals. Maybe a later upgrade. Cup seals work better than orings.
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:18 AM   #3
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Any chance you can post pictures of the pump overall, the seal in the pump, and the new seal? Something seems off. Thanks!
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:41 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gone Roaming View Post
Both my helm pumps are leeking from the shaft seal, i have got new seals but they look to big to knock in. the old seals were "O" rings but the new ones are "U" shaped with an iner spring on the seal. can anyone advise please if i have the right seals, part No: 500013 from Wagner.
I feel your pain as I went through this exact scenario last year. In short, you have the wrong part for your pump. I don't actually have the Wagner part number for you, read on for my details...

There are three different 700 series helm pumps that Wagner produced. The first (which you have) is the 700 helm pump. It is substantially different from the 701 and 702 pumps.

The 700 pump uses an oring to seal the shaft at the front of the pump.

The 701 and 702 pumps use the actual seals that you've obtained. Purchasing the right parts can be problematic, because most suppliers for Wagner immediately go to "700 series pumps" as the 701 and 702. It took me a long time to find the correct part number of the kit needed for the 700 pump.

I have found an actual 700 kit for sale online, but I'm sure they are actually for sale from Wagner/suppliers. When I rebuilt my first pump I had purchased the 701/702 kit, and simply found the correct sized nitrile o-rings (there are 4 total needed, plus 4 that the 701/702 kit had) to put it back together.

The proper parts kit you need for your 700 pump is Wagner 119-0001 (this is an original number from an old PDF catalog of theirs.) Unless you bought that seal separate, I'm guessing the kit you have is the equivalent of the original 119-0002, for the 701 and 702 pumps. If you haven't bought a full kit, disregard the issues I dealt with below.

The drawing Lepke posted above is of the 701 and 702 pump. I've never found a similar drawing of the exact 700 original pump. Your 700 pump comes apart via 4 Allen screws on the back cover. The 701 and 702 pumps actually have a large clamp ring that holds the back over onto the case. It also has bronze bushings for the front and back of the shaft along with that proper oil seal, an improvement over the 700 pump.

Photos below...

This first one shows the new seal you have, for the newer pumps, along with the o-ring I took out of mine. The housing is machined only for the o-ring. The seal is from the 119-002 kit I bought. Instead of returning the kit and getting the right one, I simply sourced some o-rings locally.

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Here are 4 o-rings that came out of my 700 pump that were not in the kit.

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The kit and its contents. Several o-rings I didn't need, and the gasket, while perfect, does not have the 4 Allen bolt holes punched out, as the 701 pumps are held together with a large locking ring instead of the Allen bolts (more on that below.)

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4 o-rings in the kit I DID need, the old ones on the left...

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The o-rings I bought. (I found them at Piston Service in Anacortes, WA.) I can't remember the sizes, I matched them up according to their assumed non-squished dimensions. I believe the two part numbers of the two bags are the two larger ones I needed, the smaller one is added in. I bought double of everything, so it looks like a lot. One of them (National 210PKG) is for the front seal (for the shaft.) I should have all the exact sizes written down in some notes someplace if you want them, I don't have them handy by the computer tonight. IIRC the two bags have the correct part numbers of the two larger sized National o-rings I bought, unfortunately I photoed them upside down.

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These next 3 are photos of marking and punching the holes in the gasket to fit.

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While I didn't go back and order up the different kit (mainly because of time), the few o-rings I needed were readily available nearby. It went together fine with no leaks. Full disclosure; after finding out all about how much better designed the 701 pumps are, I kept searching and finally found 2 used ones for sale on ebay. I rebuilt one and have it on my flybridge station. I have the other waiting to go at the lower helm when it needs a rebuild.

The 700 and 701 pumps are both designed to be flush mounted with a flush mount ring that goes on the front of a bulkhead. The 702 pump is the same design as the 701, but is made with a flange on the front of the case for bolting directly to a bulkhead.

Good luck!
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Old 04-07-2020, 01:45 AM   #5
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This might help

I had my wagner helm pump rebuilt by Olympic Drives in Richmond, B.C., Canada.( Olympic Drives Home Page). Wagner is a Canadian firm that was based in North Vancouver,B.C., Canada.

Go to the web site and you will find contact info. You might, if all else fails, shoot them an email and see if they can't ship you the required seals.

Or, you could do what I did years ago when I had a marine engine on a sailboat they no longer made, and the seals were leaking. You go to a industrial firm dealing with pumps, with the pump, and see if they can match the seal.
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Old 04-07-2020, 02:16 AM   #6
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WOW Guys.....

so much help thank you so much. this all makes things alot clearer. i think half the problem that i have is that the casing is so worn that the seals no longer make a seal. late yesterday i found a contact that had a number of "new old stock" pumps in the uk called Helmsman on the south coast. i have biyyen the bullet as it were and have ordered one for now and see what there like. if its any help for you guys his number is 07860889203 uk Pete Morgan.

Thank you very much for all your help its so good to know there are people like you about that can help. i will happly return the favour if i can.

Thank you.

Tony
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