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Old 07-08-2020, 02:43 PM   #21
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It is a seam. Not just decorative. You can even see the bung on the edge where the fastener is holding the joint together.

The problem with joints is that the two pieces of wood are going to expand at slightly different rates, thus the caulking attempting to flex. In this case the grain is not that different. Iíve always found the fasteners loosen up a little over the years. Just removing the bung and tightening things up might help. Personally Iíd try to rebed The whole thing as who knows when Iíll get to it again. Iíve had good success using epoxy on these joints, but then I am under cover most of the time. I absolutely would build an extra thickness of varnish there. Thin varnish lifts.
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Old 07-09-2020, 11:26 AM   #22
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Here are pictures of the epoxied joints that were done 12 years ago. As you can see, the joint has not moved.

The wood was wooded 8 years ago and epoxied. Varnish was applied over the epoxy. It's in need of varnish. I'm probably going to paint it white.
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Old 07-10-2020, 11:05 PM   #23
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Thanks !!

Thanks everyone for the great input.


I think my next step is to dig the black stuff out and get a better look at what I have. I like the idea of sanding the groove and then varnishing it and then replacing the black stuff and then varnishing the rail.



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It is a seam. Not just decorative. You can even see the bung on the edge where the fastener is holding the joint together.

What do you mean by "the bung on the edge where the fastener is holding the joint together"? Maybe it's my ignorance but I'm not seeing it.
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Old 07-10-2020, 11:08 PM   #24
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1st post, second picture, bottom right of picture. On the side of the rail a round bung outline can clearly be seen. Also looking at the grain.
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Old 07-11-2020, 10:11 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by rlrrlrll View Post
Thanks everyone for the great input.


I think my next step is to dig the black stuff out and get a better look at what I have. I like the idea of sanding the groove and then varnishing it and then replacing the black stuff and then varnishing the rail.






What do you mean by "the bung on the edge where the fastener is holding the joint together"? Maybe it's my ignorance but I'm not seeing it.

Just to be clean on my side.
My neighbor did not varnish over the black stuff. He says its to flexible, to wide to bridge with varnish. I'm not saying this is the right way or not, I'm not sure myself as I have not tried it.
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Old 07-11-2020, 11:07 PM   #26
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Just to be clean on my side.
My neighbor did not varnish over the black stuff. He says its to flexible, to wide to bridge with varnish. I'm not saying this is the right way or not, I'm not sure myself as I have not tried it.
Well I think it makes a lot of sense, and will not varnish the caulk next time. I'll need to get hold of some pinstripe tape, and it will fiddly to setup.

My caulk is in good condition. It appears to be well bonded to the teak on both sides, so I wont remove it to varnish the teak end grain. However, it likely does have a small cracks. I'll try and leave the tiniest sliver of caulk exposed so that the teak/caulk contact gets varnish, but definitely avoid having varnish bridging across to the other contact point.
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Old 07-15-2020, 12:37 AM   #27
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I went back down to boat over the weekend and dug the failed black caulk or whatever is out. It seems there is some rubber like stuff in the grooves.



I then walked around the dock and looked at other boats with a teak rail to see how their seems were. Most had a simple splice with a very thin section of black caulk in between. Not the big ones like I have.



I then looked at mine again and agree it IS a seem where 2 pieces of wood are connected. I found it is a combination seem and cosmetic. If I look under the rail I can see a small seem that is then rounded out and filled with caulk on the top.


What is this process of re sealing the seems called? Is there a technical term for it? Does anyone know of some good videos that shows the process of re sealing?


Looks like I need to dig all the caulk out. Sand it. Put new caulk in.


I have seen several references to "taping" in the responses. Does this mean to tape around the seem sort of like masking tape?


I have added more pictures. The first is the seem from the with the caulk removed and the second is the seem from the bottom. I can see where the 2 pieces of wood come together at the bottom of the photo.
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Old 07-15-2020, 01:11 AM   #28
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I'm guessing, but I suspect originally there was just a tight scarf joint, perhaps with glue in it. Then the varnish kept on failing - water ingress at the joint as it moved slightly over time with heat/humidity changes. So a PO came up with the bright idea of a putting a groove of caulk in in an effort to prevent water ingress.

As discussed above, you need to avoid varnish spanning across the caulk for that to work best.

From now, I would clean out the groove and sand, and if possible to slide sandpaper into the scarf below the groove then sand both side of the joint. Once clean, then with a fine brush or perhaps a syringe put some penetrating epoxy into the joint. Try to avoid epoxy in the thick part of the groove. I would consider using some hand carving chisels to extend the groove down to the GRP although that is probably not all that important to do.

Having removed the stanchion that touches the groove, mask each side of the groove and lay in something like Sika 291 as caulk. When cured, sand both the teak and caulk.
Then as discussed in earlier threads, put some pinstripe tape over the caulked groove (I would leave a tiny bit of caulk unmasked on each side) and varnish the rail, probably 6-8 coats. One trick will be removing the pinstripe without peeling up the varnish on either side. You could try removing it after each coat of varnish when the varnish is tacky. New pinstripe before next coat. Alternatively a sharp blade and delicate touch could work after the final coat of varnish is dry.

Finally, use some butyl tape to re-bed the stanchion.
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:10 AM   #29
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Pic 2 seems to show cracked caulk in one section. It may not have been the best product for the job,I`m wondering about silicone, a high quality caulk may give better results. The area looks badly "festered" in pic 1.
My last boat came with a decorative line of unidentified black caulk of some kind (I never had to renew it in 10 years) on the bowsprit. Every year or so I sanded and re-oiled and recoated wood and caulk alike with a polyurethane varnish, Deks Olje 2. The wood and the black material had previously been saturated with Deks Olje 1(the oil).
There was never a failure of the varnish in terms of its joining the caulk.I`m sure it didn`t involve a scarf, but it`s still caulk set into wood.
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Old 07-15-2020, 02:20 AM   #30
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Looks like a joint that is used in classic post and beam construction. The traditional joint didnít use fasteners. Wedges were driven in from each side pushing the two beams apart and locking the joint. In this rail application I think it should have been glued with epoxy. No idea why it would be caulked.

I would not varnish over the caulk. It just moves too much. Iíd tape the caulk, varnish the rail, then remove the tape before the varnish drys. Repeat several times.
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Old 07-15-2020, 08:20 AM   #31
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First things first. Nothing will work if the joint is moving. Can you cause or feel any movement when stressed? Any at all? If so, joint needs to come apart, get cleaned up and reassembled. When cleaned up, you need to try to preserve the close fitting parts, so be careful. To get the bungs out, start with a course screw dead center in the bung. If the bung hasnít been epoxied it will come right out when the screw bottoms on the head of the screw holding the joint. If the doesnít work, use a Forstner bit perfectly positioned. If it were me, Iíd epoxy it back together, including the artificial channel.
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Old 07-17-2020, 09:55 AM   #32
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Iím in the final stages of prepping our rails for refinishing with Allwood. All of the joints, with the exception of the bow, are tight and immobile.

Thanks to this thread, I know what to do about the open joint. Can I assume that the tight joints can just be coated over? Seems like a waste to purposely open joints that are otherwise sound, but I donít want to see the new finish fail at those joints either.

Allwood is, I read, more flexible than standard varnish.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:16 AM   #33
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What??? Did you put Allwood on your mooring lines?
I’ve seen green, black ... but pink?

The joints are there to “allow” movement. If you don’t have the space for movement the fasteners may be ripped out. Or the cap rail may split up. Or even hull damage could occur.

An interesting thought is that if there were more (enough) joints (wide enough) movement may be so small varnish failure may may not occur.
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Old 07-17-2020, 10:21 AM   #34
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What??? Did you put Allwood on your mooring lines?
Iíve seen green, black ... but pink?
Actually, theyíre red. Came with the boatóliterally dozens of eye-spliced docking lines. Iíve been looking for someplace to offload some of them. How many would you like?
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Old 07-17-2020, 11:13 AM   #35
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Folks for those who just read the most recent posts, please donít overlook my questions in post #32.

Thanks!
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Old 07-17-2020, 11:34 AM   #36
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The joints are there to ďallowĒ movement. If you donít have the space for movement the fasteners may be ripped out. Or the cap rail may split up. Or even hull damage could occur.

An interesting thought is that if there were more (enough) joints (wide enough) movement may be so small varnish failure may may not occur.
Thanks, Eric, I understand their purpose. Elsewhere on this thread, it was recommended to open up failing joints, clean them out, expose the newly clean joint faces and caulk with Sika 291 . . . and avoid varnishing directly over the new caulk.

My joints, with one exception, are not failing and show no signs of movement. Best I can tell they have been that way for 33 years. So, the answer is probably obvious, but I'm asking for the most prudent course for my situation.
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Old 07-17-2020, 01:28 PM   #37
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I donít touch joints that are solid. If feels solid but some indications of trace movement, remove the bung and see if it will tighten and put a new bung in. The joints can be difficult to work with on an otherwise solid rail, so lots of reasons not to touch them if you donít need to.
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Old 07-17-2020, 01:28 PM   #38
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Basically all joints move due to the woods expansion & contraction. Many feel that any attempt to treat the jointed rail as a single piece will fail varnish wise-just a question of when .
My preference is to treat each piece as being separate- cut out all caulk & old varnish with a very sharp chisel. Ease (round) any sharp corners to maintain mil thickness at the edges. Apply your 10 coats or so of high solids varnish of your choice, scuff sanding the joints as carefully as u do the rest of the cap rail. Then re- tape & fill the joints with a high flex UV resistant sealant - basically performing as an elastic, cosmetic filler, instead of trying to seal the wood end grain or the varnish .My preference is Sikaflex 295UV Black. Annual /semi/annual coats of high gloss varnish can go over the caulk if itís in good shape & no varnish peel. I donít believe u can effectively seal the varnished rail with caulk. Nether can you prevent movement between 2 pieces of teak anymore than you can prevent expansion/contraction in each individual piece of teak unless itís Indoors, out of the sun & climate controlled for heat & humidity year round.
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Old 07-17-2020, 01:46 PM   #39
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From the look of the Ďwhiteí in the finish I think it is pure polyurethane which does not adhere well to wood. Strip, clean out seam, build up entire rail with multi-varnish coats then apply one topcoat of 3 part Awlbrite. Tape either side of seam and apply black or white marine caulk.
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Old 07-17-2020, 02:10 PM   #40
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Basically all joints move due to the woods expansion & contraction. Many feel that any attempt to treat the jointed rail as a single piece will fail varnish wise-just a question of when .
My preference is to treat each piece as being separate- cut out all caulk & old varnish with a very sharp chisel. Ease (round) any sharp corners to maintain mil thickness at the edges. Apply your 10 coats or so of high solids varnish of your choice, scuff sanding the joints as carefully as u do the rest of the cap rail. Then re- tape & fill the joints with a high flex UV resistant sealant - basically performing as an elastic, cosmetic filler, instead of trying to seal the wood end grain or the varnish .My preference is Sikaflex 295UV Black. Annual /semi/annual coats of high gloss varnish can go over the caulk if itís in good shape & no varnish peel. I donít believe u can effectively seal the varnished rail with caulk. Nether can you prevent movement between 2 pieces of teak anymore than you can prevent expansion/contraction in each individual piece of teak unless itís Indoors, out of the sun & climate controlled for heat & humidity year round.
Thanks. Problem is It would take a razor to cut into the seams. Theyíre extremely tight (except for the bow). I do like your idea of rounding off any edges at the joints to ensure mil thickness. No varnish will be used on this job: Awlwood.
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