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Old 12-14-2022, 11:05 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
West System has quite a few decent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...HlghAT6ciaY3hB

Decent video that quickly describes thickening. You are looking for a filler, not a bonding blend.



Full disclosure: Im not great at this stuff, but I am not awful. It can be tough to keep the area free of sags and drips. Tape will not keep epoxy from sagging, so make it thick for your vertical surface.

Good luck -

Peter
This is a good way for new boaters to learn about epoxy. I find the west system very convenient with lots of educational videos and a very long shelf life.

Note, epoxy can be difficult to sand. It’s often easier to add more than to remove too much.
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Old 12-14-2022, 11:10 AM   #22
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Greetings,
Mr. t. West System IS a good product BUT it develops that amine? ketone? blush upon curing which inhibits re-coating unless cleaned very well. There are similar less expensive products that work just as well without that extra step. Can't remember which ones but they have been mentioned several times in various TF posts.


As far as bonding vs filling...I think it's both. Perhaps a thickened epoxy with cloth would be in order.
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Old 12-14-2022, 11:36 AM   #23
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Yes, there is an amine blush with West epoxy. Just wash it with freshwater and scrub it with a brush. Rinse it off and let it dry.
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Old 12-15-2022, 07:06 AM   #24
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Im going to offer a different product suggestion for that. If that’s just a trim piece pulling away and there’s no structural damage behind it, you can fill it. If you want to be sure it hardens, you do need a two part product. I like a seam sealer like this:https://www.amazon.com/LORD-Fusor-10.../dp/B00B3HXUAG
Just clean all the old sealant off the surface, do a solvent wipe, and squirt this stuff in. You can smooth the surface, wait a few minutes for it to harden, and paint right over it.
Fusor products are top notch. They require a special gun to dispense it but the small one isn’t too expensive.

We don’t really know what your skill set is, and some epoxy repairs may seem a little daunting. I like to do proper repairs, but I have a wide skill set.
If you just want to stabilize the area and make it look better, the seam sealer will do the trick.
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Old 12-19-2022, 01:35 PM   #25
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OMG! This thread has the more advice that I would call 'wrong' than ANYTHING I have seen on TF!

Trim is 'trim' and it often is only esthetic. But that trim might be protecting places where water could get into the boat - meaning into the 'walls' - where it will cause rot and major failure of the structure.

As in almost all boat repairs the only way to do it right is to take the entire boat apart and rebuild it correctly. On a practical level you just need to keep water from getting into screw holes etc.

Don't freak out about it!

Generally a very good way to clean something for repair is acetone and bronze wool or a green scrubby pad. That will get that awful silicone out. Get heavy dishwashing gloves for when you use the acetone. Then cover up those gaps with Sikaflex 291 or anything that is NOT permanent. Don't use the epoxy until you are doing a permanent repair.

I would say to do the above even if there is evidence that you need a bigger repair (the fiberglass is really easy to push in, it sounds hollow when you knock on it, the deck above is 'bouncy' etc).

Just stop things from getting worse (keep water from getting in) and make it look okay.

Then use and enjoy your boat!

That spot has clearly been a problem for years and it can stay a problem for more years without you doing much (or anything) about it. And if a major repair is needed in that spot then a major repair is probably needed in lots of places. And it has needed those repairs for years and it can keep needing them for years.

Use your boat and enjoy it!!

When you are ready to address those major repairs SELL THE BOAT and buy one that does not need those major repairs.
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Old 12-19-2022, 02:40 PM   #26
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Julie (MisfitManaged) we know that you are a lady, and have a Marine Trader trawler. What is your level of comfort working with power tools, fiberglass and wood work? What year is the boat.

Next I feel that this is a "covering board" for the transition between the flying bridge fiberglass (possible molding but also plywood covered with fiberglass for the side of the flying bridge.) The area below this is the actual roof of the cabin top of the pilot house/salon of the boat.

To remove this is fairly difficult. It is probably screwed in from the outside and just is a cosmetic covering. So you are looking for a semi permeant cosmetic solution. The wood may be teak, which is an oily wood and does not adhere to other materials as well as most other wood. This was caulked at the builders and most likely a number of other times during the boat's life.

As noted by many, you will have to get any trace of previous caulking materials (especially any silicone or silicone complex materials) out of the void before it can be filled semi permanently. I would start with a sharp putty knife and scrape along the top, removing both old paint and old caulking material. Go from each end of the void. I have a number of sharp carving tools, which I used for this type of work--thin knife blades, gouges, small scrapers etc. The average boat owner does own such tools so you may have to fabricate or adapt an old pearing knife which has been sharped to an edge which will get into the grove and pull out material. I also have several Dremel tools, and even larger motors with flexible shafts which take bits to get into tight places. If using a Dremel Tool, I would be using their flexible shaft to get the angle more acute into the slot you are cleaning out. Be cautions, you can removed a lot of material rapidly if you are not careful. Also the oscillating saws which are made by many companies now (Fein tools was one of the first and still is the best). I have several, and they have very fine tooth blades which will work scraping into this void.

I would favor filling with thickened West system epoxy (This is what I have worked with for many years and keep around my shop. There area other epoxy cheaper and just as good.). I use fumed silica, (Cabosil) and West Systems (no relation to West Marine) medium density filler. You can make this with enough cabosil that it will be very thick. The more Cabosil, the more difficult it will be to fair after it has set up.

Avoid "Bondo" or any auto body type of filler. These will fail in the marine environment.

I would also like to see a photo several feet off, looking at the area below this--ie the cabin top. This will either verify or disprove my postulate that this is a covering board over the joint between the flying bridge side and roof of the trawler. Let us know how it is going. There is going to be no "short cut".
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Old 12-19-2022, 02:41 PM   #27
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I agree with Mr. RTFirefly, your problem area appears to be at the joint between the vertical side of the fly bridge and the horizontal surface of an edge of the narrow deck piece. I’m not sure whether the issue extends beyond the photos you submitted, but the area in y9ur photo ought to be dug out with a Dremel type tool, cleaned with acetone and repaired with fiberglass.

It’s difficult to tell whether much cloth is needed, but once you have exposed the damaged area, you can decide how extensive a repair is needed. And yes, in my opinion, I would want to use some form of West systems epoxy. They make small repair kits with cloth, thickener, etc that you can buy.

Let us know how you finally make out. And welcome. Alex
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Old 12-19-2022, 03:56 PM   #28
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OMG! This thread has the more advice that I would call 'wrong' than ANYTHING I have seen on TF!
Said the pot....
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Old 12-19-2022, 04:11 PM   #29
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Greetings,
I've noticed that Ms. MM has not posted for almost a week. Hopefully we have not alienated her already (usually takes either an anchor or illicit political thread).


Hello Ms. MM....


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Old 12-19-2022, 04:14 PM   #30
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I had the same rotted trim and ripped it all off. It's purely decorative and to hide the joint between the 'house' and the flybridge.
It's maybe not the easiest of jobs, but once off you can hide the joint with a plastic strip, which will be maintenance free.
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Old 12-19-2022, 05:24 PM   #31
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I have used epoxy and fumed silica (Aerosil) for fairing and filling. Mixing in the silica depends on the job - thick peanut butter for filling large gaps, thicker if a vertical surface, thinner is good for injecting into delaminated layers with a syringe and large bore needle. But it sets up hard and is difficult to sand.

TotalBoat’s fairing compound is a pre-formulated, two part epoxy which is easy to use, thick, has a reasonable working time, easier to sand and has a long shelf life. Have been using for a few years. I’ve been finishing with sprayed on two part polyurethane with good results.

https://www.totalboat.com/product/totalfair/

Available from Amazon.

Good luck with your repairs.
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Old 12-19-2022, 05:36 PM   #32
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BTW, I am a single female and this is my first boat. So, don't talk to me like I'm an idiot, but also talk to me like I'm an idiot. If that's possible
First & foremost -welcome aboard! Despite some previous comments, most of us start off like idiots about Fiberglas repair, but we can all learn. You have been given lots of advice some of which is rather conflicting.

First principles are important: Prep work is absolutely key. If you don't get back to clean, stable substrate, the repair, (regardless of the material used) will eventually separate, allow water to enter the seams and rot/failure follows.

The first attempt, most of us, don't make a big enough hole, grind out far enough/deep enough or get rid of ALL the rot, 'cause it either will lead to a much bigger job than we want to tackle or, more commonly, we are uncertain how to fill the defect. One of the beauties of Fiberglas (FRP) is that it is infinitely rebuildable with simple techniques, and inexpensive materials. Clean out the defect, carefully clean all surfaces and rebuild with layers of torn pieces of Chopped Strand Mat and either polyester resin (only use with CSM above the water line) or (more expensive, but structurally stronger) Epoxy resin (which can also be thickened with West 403 for small/vertical defects. Whichever resin, you choose, be meticulous about working temperature and correct proportions. The worst thing that can happen is you have to grind it out and do over. More likely, you will just have to sand out the high spots and perhaps build up a few low spots you missed. You don't need a lot of expensive tools, at minimum N95 masks or proper respirator, a basic disc sander or inexpensive 4" angle grinder, possibly a Dremel tool/equivalent for small areas/cracks. Since you are painting, no worries about gelcoat.

Here's a useful video illustrating the basic principles. Andys technique of saturating the CSM with a chip brush is easy and very useful. Your pic suggests that it is not a structural repair (hopefully) so for a fully contained defect, you won't have to grind the edges out as far, concentrating more on filling the defects from the bottom up.

http://blip.tv/boatworks-today/diffe...repair-6021211

try a small area or fill a defect on a scrap piece of wood/FRP, you may surprise yourself.
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Old 12-19-2022, 06:31 PM   #33
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BoatWorks Today has a lot of great videos on fiberglass repair. Some are public and some are for paid members. It costs about $3 per month and there is lots of knowledge there.
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Old 12-19-2022, 06:47 PM   #34
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A repair like that has to be done properly. Invest in a oscillating tool from HBR Freight and carbide blade cutback till you can reinsert a core Exterior ply, lots of saturating epoxy then grind back and re-lam the deck. Never have the problem again. 150 bucks of stuff and labour then done!
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Old 12-19-2022, 07:07 PM   #35
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Another Welcome! Julie, I’ve seen guys that can’t successfully remove a screw (my dad was one) and worked with ladies who could dial in a 120 foot long tool. It just comes from what we were exposed to and took an interest in as we get older. The smartest thing you’ve done with is ask for help. Where you need a visual, Andy at http://blip.tv/boatworks-today/diffe...repair-6021211 is superb. There are other YouTube blogs that demonstrate how to make boat repairs.
From my experience, the first thing would be to establish the limit of the void and any hidden extensions. This is relatively easy to do using anything to tap with from a very small hammer, to a pocket knife. When you tap on a place that’s “solid”, that is there’s no separation in the laminating, you will get a sharp return. You can test the sound by tapping on you table. If the return is muffled, there’s an issue. The most common in the area you are working would be “soft wood”. That a nice way of saying rotted. It could also be the result of a past repair or a construction void.
I keep four power tools aboard. A 20v driver, a 20v drill (both Black and Decker), a small shop vac and an oscillating tool. Depending on the extent of the void plus the suspect surrounding area, a simple clean and fill may do the job, Personally I like “Thickso” which is thickened polyester resin. Clean up the hole, lay in the Thickso, then cover with Duck Tape. The suggestions of practicing with the material is spot on. The advantage of Thickso or your own mixture of polyester resin is how quickly it will “kick”. A slow to kick material is an obvious issue with vertical surfaces. If the area sounds like it’s, say 6” x 3”, then there are other options. First the area has to be dry on the inside. Iiwm, I’d get out the oscillating tool and if I could get at it from the back side, cut the fiberglass and layer of reinforcement (plywood) but not cut the outer fiberglass. Next I’d peel the cut area away from the outer layer of fiberglass and then clean and dry the cavity. To backfill, a piece of plywood cut to fit and soaked in a catilized 50/50 mix of resin and acetone would be pressed into or covered with a “buttering” (smeared layer of bonding compound) of Thickso. Push the plywood plug in firmly and use something to hold it in place. After eight hours or so, sand everything flat with the plug are depressed so you can butter the fiberglass layer/piece you cut out and insert it in the depression getting it as close to its original position as you can. Clean up the squeezed out Thickso, and finish the repair based on Andy’s demonstration (the boatwerks guy).
For the time being, as you are deciding how big the area is and your repair plan, you can cover the opening with Duct Tape, I prefer Gorilla Tape.
I too would welcome any questions via private message.
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Old 12-20-2022, 08:17 AM   #36
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well, I'm more comfortable working with polyester resins, so this would be the way I would do it.
First, clean out the area good with a dremel tool, clean with acetone.
Assuming it's structurally sound, I would fill the bulk of the gap with fiberglass reinforced Bondo, as that set up quickly and is compatible with polyester resins.
Then I would put 2 layers of resin and 1 1/2 once fiberglass mat, then sand/grind smooth, then gelcoat or paint (gelcoat would be my first choice).
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Old 12-20-2022, 09:39 AM   #37
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That trim piece is 100% decorative. It does not cover any seams or joints. You could actually rip it off, patch the damaged area with fiberglass and paint the decorative trim line on the boat.

I went a different route on my boat. I carefully tapped the trim piece and painted it.

Now, since you are new and I have not said it in a while I'll say it again. (Regarding your use of latex/silicone caulk.)

Do not use any product which you can buy at Home Depot, Menards or Lowes (or the like) on your boat! This includes lumber, caulk, fasteners, paint, varnish, electronics, fixtures, tune up parts,etc.

Certain plumbing parts may be the exception. Maybe Windex also, but don't use windex on electronics or clear plastics.

Oh, BTW, Welcome Aboard!

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Old 12-20-2022, 02:47 PM   #38
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Be careful here as there is a lot of advice using epoxy resin. Epoxy like 3M 5200 has its place so when used insure it’s being applied where removals are not required down the road. These Taiwanese fly bridges like almost all smaller yachts in the U.S. and Europe are fabricated on the shop floors atop jigs then lifted and installed atop the deckhouse roof. Attachment schemes can include anything from a wood cleat fastened to the roof that the bridge coamings slip over and around with screws driven from the outside into the cleat. Other bridges have a base flange that usually extends 1 1/2 - 2” inboard so it can be screwed down into the deckhouse roof. The third option that I’m familiar with is the bridge footprint large enough to slip over the outside perimeter of the roof then screwed laterally and trimmed off. I have no idea which method your boat uses.

I do know this when I had my shop we had several jobs where boats were being trucked across country so we were hired to remove flybridges then build framing to stow them atop the aft cabin overhanging the cockpit. Had somebody gone in and epoxied or 5200’d the bridge to the roof it would have turned the unfastening job into a cutting job - I think you get my drift. So remember these flybridges do get removed from time to time

If you have water migration into the deckhouse roof then you have wet Lauan plywood core resulting if both delamination and probably fungal rot. But understand there is quite a bit of camber to the roof so generally water and deterioration will be limited to the perimeter if your lucky. If the condition has grown and extended well below or beyond the coaming base then you’re now looking at bridge removal or elevation to effect repairs. You don’t want to go there if possible. If you have wet rotted ply core around the flybridge base it’s probably from lack of proper bedding of inside cleat fasteners or flange screws. I seriously doubt you have a condition that is structurally significant, so I’d address your problems locally without tearing too much apart. Sorry I can’t be more specific but I don’t have enough information and pictures won’t work for me. If you have a moisture meter or somebody that REALLY knows how to use a surveyors hammer then it would behoove you to inspect the entire roof.

Rick
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Old 12-20-2022, 06:54 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
West System has quite a few decent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?lis...HlghAT6ciaY3hB

Decent video that quickly describes thickening. You are looking for a filler, not a bonding blend.



Full disclosure: Im not great at this stuff, but I am not awful. It can be tough to keep the area free of sags and drips. Tape will not keep epoxy from sagging, so make it thick for your vertical surface.

Good luck -

Peter
+1 for a fiberglass or epoxy filler. WEST System is by far the best to learn with. Plenty of videos on YT to show you the way. Lots of additives to experiment with. Once your comfortable with it it’s ALMOST fool proof. The 2 part epoxy paste from total boat works well and will stand up on vertical repairs just fine. Easy to fair and paints well as long as it’s primered. Try and get all of the loose particles out first then let dry or heat gun. The 2 part paste sets up in minutes. Try and make a jig to drag over the repair to match the shape of adjacent surface as close as possible. Then sand and fair as needed.
Good luck and share some pics. You got this !
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Old 12-20-2022, 07:43 PM   #40
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Be careful here as there is a lot of advice using epoxy resin. Epoxy like 3M 5200 has its place so when used insure it’s being applied where removals are not required down the road. These Taiwanese fly bridges like almost all smaller yachts in the U.S. and Europe are fabricated on the shop floors atop jigs then lifted and installed atop the deckhouse roof. Attachment schemes can include anything from a wood cleat fastened to the roof that the bridge coamings slip over and around with screws driven from the outside into the cleat. Other bridges have a base flange that usually extends 1 1/2 - 2” inboard so it can be screwed down into the deckhouse roof. The third option that I’m familiar with is the bridge footprint large enough to slip over the outside perimeter of the roof then screwed laterally and trimmed off. I have no idea which method your boat uses.

I do know this when I had my shop we had several jobs where boats were being trucked across country so we were hired to remove flybridges then build framing to stow them atop the aft cabin overhanging the cockpit. Had somebody gone in and epoxied or 5200’d the bridge to the roof it would have turned the unfastening job into a cutting job - I think you get my drift. So remember these flybridges do get removed from time to time

If you have water migration into the deckhouse roof then you have wet Lauan plywood core resulting if both delamination and probably fungal rot. But understand there is quite a bit of camber to the roof so generally water and deterioration will be limited to the perimeter if your lucky. If the condition has grown and extended well below or beyond the coaming base then you’re now looking at bridge removal or elevation to effect repairs. You don’t want to go there if possible. If you have wet rotted ply core around the flybridge base it’s probably from lack of proper bedding of inside cleat fasteners or flange screws. I seriously doubt you have a condition that is structurally significant, so I’d address your problems locally without tearing too much apart. Sorry I can’t be more specific but I don’t have enough information and pictures won’t work for me. If you have a moisture meter or somebody that REALLY knows how to use a surveyors hammer then it would behoove you to inspect the entire roof.

Rick
Rick, first, 5200 is NOT epoxy. "3M™ Marine Adhesive Sealant 5200 is a one-component, high-strength, moisture-curing, gap-filling polyurethane."

2nd, and maybe this is shortsighted of me, but if the next owner wants to take off the fly bridge and ship it, and has to cut it off . . . . so be it! I'd personally make the "seam" permanent! YMMV
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