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Old 05-21-2018, 11:25 AM   #21
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I got out last week and recorded the new sound levels at the same location and in the same manner as the original measurement before the pad was installed. Here are the before and after screenshots to compare results.

The left graph is before pad installation and the right graph is after the pad was installed. The yellow line represents the peaks during the recording period and the white line is the current level. The white line dropped each time I grabbed the screenshot presumably due to my hand and fingers covering part of the cellphone mic. So let's ignore the white lines and focus on the yellow peak recording.

Each recording was taken at the lower helm along centerline, at ear level (~5.5 ft), at cruise power of 1800 RPM and with all doors, windows and hatches closed. I drew a line through each recording (on paper) to represent the average or mean of the measurements for comparison. I documented those means in the table below to show numerically what is represented graphically in the images.

Summary: The measured noise level improvements on my boat varied with frequency, as expected. The low frequency below 500 Hz was minimally impacted. Above 500 Hz, the dB improvements ranged from the mid teens to low 20s. To me, this represents a value that I cannot quantify in my head but in the boat, it makes a profound difference. I found that I was using lower volume for my news and music listening while enroute, phone conversations were easy without needing to reduce power to hear better and the ambient noise level just seemed muffled and less obtrusive. In terms of noise attenuation, I score this improvement successful and welcome.

The other factor in my carpet underlayment upgrade was comfort under foot as a carpet pad. I chose the 1/2 in foam/1 lb vinyl and find the plush feel very comfortable...even relaxing to my feet. I'm glad I didn't opt for the 1/4 inch foam.

Surprisingly, I really like the carpet underlayment that I installed in the passageway down below. Before this, I had no pad in that section and each step was like a step on a hard surface. Now as I step off the fwd steps to the carpet below, the foam pad softens the step and feels great.

I hope this helps others who are deciding how to attenuate the noise and soften the feel of their vessels. Again, many thanks to Keysdisease Steve for his expertise in this significant upgrade.
Attached Thumbnails
No Carpetpad Installed.png   Carpetpad Installed.jpg   Sound Level Chart.jpg  
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Old 05-21-2018, 11:59 AM   #22
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Awesome. As we had discussed the choice of 1lb barrier was a compromise for the hatches as the 2lb barrier product is twice as heavy and not nearly as flexible. The 2lb would have impacted the lower frequency noise more, but would have made dealing with the hatches more difficult.

Very happy to hear you are pleased with performance.

To answer Ranger's question, the goal is full coverage and tight sealing. Anything less creates a "leak" for the noise to enter through a loose fit hatch or "flank" any noise insulation to a non insulated section.



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Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
Summary: The measured noise level improvements on my boat varied with frequency, as expected. The low frequency below 500 Hz was minimally impacted. Above 500 Hz, the dB improvements ranged from the mid teens to low 20s. To me, this represents a value that I cannot quantify in my head but in the boat, it makes a profound difference. I found that I was using lower volume for my news and music listening while enroute, phone conversations were easy without needing to reduce power to hear better and the ambient noise level just seemed muffled and less obtrusive. In terms of noise attenuation, I score this improvement successful and welcome.

The other factor in my carpet underlayment upgrade was comfort under foot as a carpet pad. I chose the 1/2 in foam/1 lb vinyl and find the plush feel very comfortable...even relaxing to my feet. I'm glad I didn't opt for the 1/4 inch foam.
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Old 05-21-2018, 01:25 PM   #23
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I used foam window insulation tape like the one linked below for around engine room access doors and on the bottom edges of access hatches. Made a pretty big difference.

https://www.uline.ca/Product/Detail/...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 05-21-2018, 02:14 PM   #24
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Exactly, any kind of gasket or seal is the best cost / performance dollar you can spend for noise reduction. A very easy and inexpensive way to determine if you would benefit or not from gasket install or replace is to just take some masking tape and seal up the hatch or door. This should give a pretty quick and easy indication if you might benefit from new gaskets




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I used foam window insulation tape like the one linked below for around engine room access doors and on the bottom edges of access hatches. Made a pretty big difference.

https://www.uline.ca/Product/Detail/...E&gclsrc=aw.ds
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Old 05-21-2018, 06:56 PM   #25
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Al,

Thanks for the comrehensive and timely follow up.

Best Wishes,
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keysdisease View Post
To answer Ranger's question, the goal is full coverage and tight sealing. Anything less creates a "leak" for the noise to enter through a loose fit hatch or "flank" any noise insulation to a non insulated section.

I get that leaks would be less effective.

I'm just stumped trying to figure out how to get a flat floor with the underlayment overlapping underlayment where the hatch seams meet the main saloon sole.

-Chris
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Old 05-22-2018, 04:53 PM   #27
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You don't overlap underlayment or carpet, you cut oversized on the hatch a
by a couple of inches and that acts like a flap seal. The underlayment and carpet butt together



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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
I get that leaks would be less effective.
I'm just stumped trying to figure out how to get a flat floor with the underlayment overlapping underlayment where the hatch seams meet the main saloon sole.
-Chris
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:32 PM   #28
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Steve, Last is Hadik?
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Old 05-22-2018, 05:47 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
I get that leaks would be less effective.

I'm just stumped trying to figure out how to get a flat floor with the underlayment overlapping underlayment where the hatch seams meet the main saloon sole.

-Chris
Chris, If you look at the 4th pic of the original post, you'll see the missing hatches and the "overlap" gap left when the hatches and their pad covers are removed. The cut of the pad never lies directly above a hatch gap...it's 2 inches beyond the limit of the hatch.
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Old 05-23-2018, 04:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keysdisease View Post
You don't overlap underlayment or carpet, you cut oversized on the hatch a by a couple of inches and that acts like a flap seal. The underlayment and carpet butt together
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyWright View Post
Chris, If you look at the 4th pic of the original post, you'll see the missing hatches and the "overlap" gap left when the hatches and their pad covers are removed. The cut of the pad never lies directly above a hatch gap...it's 2 inches beyond the limit of the hatch.

Think I'm getting what you're saying. Your 4th pic is with the hatches open, yes?

OK, so in that situation the underlayment covers the hatch seams... but then you also said your carpet is wall-to-wall and floating, so to expose your hatches the whole top carpet has to come up. Yes?

I think I can't do that in our saloon... too much furniture, a pedestal table (pedestal surrounded by carpet), etc.

IOW, I need to be able to lift each hatch -- and it's attached underlayment and carpet -- without lifting the surrounding carpet.

-Chris
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Old 05-23-2018, 05:12 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
Think I'm getting what you're saying. Your 4th pic is with the hatches open, yes?
Yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
OK, so in that situation the underlayment covers the hatch seams... but then you also said your carpet is wall-to-wall and floating, so to expose your hatches the whole top carpet has to come up. Yes?
Yes, I pull the entire carpet, but it's possible to pull up one end and fold it over. With my salon layout, it's easier to pull it all and have it out of the way for maintenance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post
I think I can't do that in our saloon... too much furniture, a pedestal table (pedestal surrounded by carpet), etc.

IOW, I need to be able to lift each hatch -- and it's attached underlayment and carpet -- without lifting the surrounding carpet.

-Chris
Can you have a serged carpet panel and the pad secured to your hatch for removal? Got pics?
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Old 05-25-2018, 06:34 AM   #32
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Quote:
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Can you have a serged carpet panel and the pad secured to your hatch for removal? Got pics?
I'm not sure what "serged" is, but our current configuration has both pad and carpet attached to each hatch... so everything over each "hole" comes up at once . The original carpet isn't "wrapped" (around the edges of the main floor or each hatch), but the replacement will be.

Each hatch rests on a lip all the way around the circumference of the hatch, and that lip is part of the flooring structure. IOW, the lip system is not just (e.g., metal) framing added afterwards to support the hatches, but rather part of the main floor. The overlap seems similar to what you've described with your underlayment.

I've got some pics, maybe I can post one or two later today...


@FlyWright/Al: Which foam did you use? I see it was 1/2" but the Soundown website lists "charcoal" or "Premium"?

@Keysdisease/Steve: What's the functional difference between the "charcoal" and the"Premium" foam? Our installer said yesterday (after her own search) that the charcoal is more cushy, and the premium is firmer. That right? If so, anything else? Any difference in sound attenuation?

-Chris
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Old 05-25-2018, 08:31 AM   #33
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Hello Chris,

Your installer is correct, the charcoal is more "cushy," but the overwhelming opinion is that it's too "cushy" and that your feet find the floor as if there isn't any foam there at all.

Al bought the "premium," which provides a very plush feel underfoot.

As far as noise reduction performance, the function of the foam is to "decouple" the mass layer from the structural foam. Both foams do that equally, the premium foam has a little more mass so it probably performs a little better, but likely in the "measurable" range and not the "noticeable" range.

I hope this is helpful

Steve



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Originally Posted by ranger42c View Post

@Keysdisease/Steve: What's the functional difference between the "charcoal" and the"Premium" foam? Our installer said yesterday (after her own search) that the charcoal is more cushy, and the premium is firmer. That right? If so, anything else? Any difference in sound attenuation?

-Chris
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File Type: pdf Carpet 2010.1.A.pdf (850.7 KB, 27 views)
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Old 05-25-2018, 09:57 AM   #34
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Nice work Al - congrats!
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Old 05-25-2018, 10:16 AM   #35
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Good job Al . Nice upgrade for the boat , feet and ears .
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Old 05-26-2018, 06:45 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keysdisease View Post
Your installer is correct, the charcoal is more "cushy," but the overwhelming opinion is that it's too "cushy" and that your feet find the floor as if there isn't any foam there at all.

Al bought the "premium," which provides a very plush feel underfoot.

As far as noise reduction performance, the function of the foam is to "decouple" the mass layer from the structural foam. Both foams do that equally, the premium foam has a little more mass so it probably performs a little better, but likely in the "measurable" range and not the "noticeable" range.

I hope this is helpful

VERY helpful, thanks! And I apparently hadn't found that link on the Soundown site, so that helps even more.

I'm meeting the installer at the boat later this morning to discuss details. I think she just wants to double-check her calcs but also maybe to confirm the total 5/8" or 3/4" overall thickness will be workable..

-Chris
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Old 05-26-2018, 08:43 AM   #37
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Some pics...

Port side hatch, "notched" a bit to deal with the shape of the cabinetry (another owner of an earlier build tells me his port side hatch is just a rectangle, parts of it underneath the cabinetry, and he had to do some significant work to open his up):

Click image for larger version

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Starboard side hatch, just a rectangle, closed and open:

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The chairs pictured are replacements for the original Flexsteel sleep-sofa, and that was a bear to move (and "stow" someplace) when that hatch needs to be opened.

The original carpet wasn't "wrapped" around the hatches... just dressed up a bit after I simply cut the carpet and pad and unscrewed the hatches...

-Chris
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Old 05-26-2018, 10:19 AM   #38
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Serged

A picture of serged carpet
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Old 05-26-2018, 01:49 PM   #39
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Ah. Thanks. No, ours isn't serged, and the plan so far is to wrap each engine room hatch. There's another hatch in the stateroom that's already wrapped, and we'll just re-do that the same way, too.

1/2" Premium foam is our menu choice.

Our next decision is about the 1- versus 2-lbs/sq ft. mass layer; just at the moment, I don't see any downside to the heavier layer (aside from extra cost) since the weight increase isn't a huge deal for our boat...

-Chris
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Old 05-28-2018, 07:22 AM   #40
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FWIW, I took some "before" sound measurements yesterday, so I'll have something to compare after the installation... Not as sophisticated as Al's frequency-specific graphs, but at least averages/maximums/minimums at various RPMs (idle and 1200 in the slip, 2200 and 2400 underway).

From memory, the max I saw was 100 dB-C at 2400 RPMs while underway. Given the way my meter works, it's likely I should have changed the range setting to the next higher increment, so that max may really have been in the 102-105 range... but I didn't figure that out 'til afterwards.

Not to worry, should be good enough for comparison...

-Chris
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