Oil change now or spring

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SILENTKNIGHT

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2018
Messages
186
Location
United States
Vessel Name
STELLA DI MARE
Vessel Make
2006 MAINSHIP 34T
2006 Mainship Yanmar 6LYA-STP

This is my first season im leaving boat in water.
I winterized all water lines & engine, AC & Gen.
I have not used the boat since mid Jan. Im in NY ( long Island) have had very cold days and weeks. The engine compartment is heated 65 degrees all day.
I have not changed oil , will this be something i should do now or in spring ( April )

i plan on short haul April 5, for bottom paint , & zinc. fuel filters & impellers.
 
At this point I don’t see any benefit either way since it is so close now. Some recomend changing in the fall so engine sits all winter in clean oil. That is what I usually do.
 
I doubt you will get a good drain w/o running it first.
Oil is just sitting in the pan at this point doing no harm... I'd wait till spring and when you can run it to get it warmed up well.
 
Thats what i thought....So i will just wait until April to crank over and then drain... same with generator. I was just reading so may articles about acid deposits creating harm on moving parts? But the oil is in the pan as you mentioned.
 
..... I was just reading so may articles about acid deposits creating harm on moving parts? ...

Yes. Generally it is a good idea to change the oil in a vehicle before you put it away for the winter/season for that reason. If you can change the oil before you put it away that would be nice. If you can't, and can only get to it at the start of the next season of use, I don't think it would be anything to worry about.
 
Thats what i thought....So i will just wait until April to crank over and then drain... same with generator. I was just reading so may articles about acid deposits creating harm on moving parts? But the oil is in the pan as you mentioned.
It's not as simple as I stated but there is oil remaining in the engine and helps lube when started but that's true even if you removed and replaced the oil in the pan unless you run to circulate new oil which I take it you can't being winterized.

If you have any info on how many hours on oil it may be worth pulling a sample when you do change and send it in for analysis. It by itself won't tell you a lot unless a factor is way out of line but it will provide a baseline for future comparison. I dont do analysis every year but will continue every other year unless / until something starts to go wrong.

If you sample You will find a TBN number... total base number that indicates the remaining ability to counteract acid formation. Many people repeat what they hear that all used oil is acidic and will ruin an engine if left in. I'll just say there is more to it and modern oils take good care of themselves up to a point and unless something like a cooler is in need of attention.
Sleep soundly as I will bet your current oil is OK... I have had oil tested at end of year and it always comes back with recommendation to continue running it and retest at a later time. I have followed the advice once in awhile when hours were low and could get another season before I changed.
 
The best oil change is done after a long run with the oil and engine still hot.

Oil normally contains detergents which can lift stuck crud that is too fine for filters to grab that is wise to remove from the engine.

Do changes hot and there will seldom be crud inside the valve covers .
 
At this point might as well change in the spring. Normally, I change in the fall. On our last weekend before haulout, I warm the engines up and change the oil. The only time they get run after that is to move the boat to the lift pit for haulout and then winterize the engines (right after the move).



Oil will buffer some acids, etc. as long as the oil isn't used up, but I figure it's playing it safe to store the engine with clean oil in it and minimize the risk of internal corrosion. Only time I'll store an engine for its off-season with dirty oil is if it's still very early in its oil lifespan. I'm also more likely to do that if it's in a climate controlled environment (less risk of condensation in the engine).
 
Thanks Bacchus, you just stopped the voices in my head ...LOL .
 
I have gone over to the new school of oil changes. I submit oil for testing and let that tell me if an oil change is needed. As a result there are less oil changes.
 
The best oil change is done after a long run with the oil and engine still hot.

Correct. I change my oil at the end of a day's run. Yes, it can be a bit uncomfortable working around a hot engine, but thoroughly warmed oil will be pumped out more easily and more of it will come out. And, any contamination is mixed with the oil.
 
Yes. Generally it is a good idea to change the oil in a vehicle before you put it away for the winter/season for that reason. If you can change the oil before you put it away that would be nice. If you can't, and can only get to it at the start of the next season of use, I don't think it would be anything to worry about.

Thats would I have been told too.
 
Yes. Change oil late season before winter storage.
Do it after one of your last outings of the season, engine still warm.

Then run again at least once before storage.

Clean fresh oil on all parts is way better than putting her up coated in older oil/contaminants.

Same for any vehicle or equipment going into seasonal storage.
 
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Yes. Change oil late season before winter storage.
Do it after one of your last outings of the season, engine still warm.

Then run again at least once before storage.

Clean fresh oil on all parts is way better than putting her up coated in older oil/contaminants.

Same for any vehicle or equipment going into seasonal storage.

Total bull poop. Absolutely no need to change out perfectly good oil before winter layup. So, tell us, what is that awful oil doing to your engine's innards in-season? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, all that acid in the oil will corrode engine parts off-season. Nope, no acids in the oil as long as the TBN remains suffciently high. What is TBN you ask? I recently tested oil that had 600 hours and was in the engine for nearly three years. Yup, TBN still good, contaminants below acceptable level - that is for what filters are - and the oil was recommended good for further use. You, sir, are likely just wasting your money as do many boaters who have bought into this myth propagated by folks who know nothing about oil efficacy.
 
I generally go with this: if the oil is not near change time, leave it alone. But if it's most of the way to a change interval, I'll just do it before putting the thing into off season storage.

Catalinajack is absolutely right about oil having acid buffering capabilities.
 
Total bull poop. Absolutely no need to change out perfectly good oil before winter layup. So, tell us, what is that awful oil doing to your engine's innards in-season? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, all that acid in the oil will corrode engine parts off-season. Nope, no acids in the oil as long as the TBN remains suffciently high. What is TBN you ask? I recently tested oil that had 600 hours and was in the engine for nearly three years. Yup, TBN still good, contaminants below acceptable level - that is for what filters are - and the oil was recommended good for further use. You, sir, are likely just wasting your money as do many boaters who have bought into this myth propagated by folks who know nothing about oil efficacy.



I do understand the TBN test and oil’s highly variable -by brand- capacity to handle acids, not to mention protection against abrasive soot.

Oil is cheap.
 
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I don't disagree with CJ's point, but could someone explain why my Yanmar manual wants oil changes every 6 mos or 125 hours? I don't think Yanmar is in the oil business. Maybe this is worst case under some set of operating circumstances?
 
I don't disagree with CJ's point, but could someone explain why my Yanmar manual wants oil changes every 6 mos or 125 hours? I don't think Yanmar is in the oil business. Maybe this is worst case under some set of operating circumstances?


They're almost certainly playing it safe. Figuring that someone will use the worst oil that meets their specs and the engine will see near worst-case operating conditions for oil life.
 
Total bull poop. Absolutely no need to change out perfectly good oil before winter layup. So, tell us, what is that awful oil doing to your engine's innards in-season? Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, all that acid in the oil will corrode engine parts off-season. Nope, no acids in the oil as long as the TBN remains suffciently high. What is TBN you ask? I recently tested oil that had 600 hours and was in the engine for nearly three years. Yup, TBN still good, contaminants below acceptable level - that is for what filters are - and the oil was recommended good for further use. You, sir, are likely just wasting your money as do many boaters who have bought into this myth propagated by folks who know nothing about oil efficacy.


You should let the engineers at Deere and Northern Lights know that they have been giving bad advice. Maybe you can help them update their recommendations.
 
My guess is..... is that if your engine is still under warranty, follow OEM recommendations if you hope to have warranty coverage should you have a failure. Otherwise, oil testing can be used to determine when to change. However, personally, I found oil testing to ensure the oil is still good, to be relatively expensive, and it was just as easy to just change it as recommended. Most years that meant changing it annually in the fall before the winter period of no use.
To the OP, as others have stated, just wait until spring.
 
IMO changing oil is a minimal expense in relation to owning a boat. So why not just do it. By the time I am ready to haul taking a sample and sending it off and then maybe finding out I have to indeed change the oil I may not have time to do the oil change. I have to schedule the haul out and then rush to go through the process or just change the oil, I will just change the oil. And when you think of the cost of a possible rebuild on a 450 hp diesel the oil change is really insignificant.
 
Let me make a comment as someone quite familiar with modern lubricant technology. Modern engine lubricants are deeply misunderstood. Lubricants are highly technical and the development costs are tens of millions of dollars. Very few outside of the additive and lubricant business really understand how things have changed over the years and how very complex modern formulations are. Simple measures like TBN alone are not particularly meaningful in determining oil life. Many people have opinions about engine oil but most don't have much actual knowledge. This includes mechanics who know engines but not lubricants.

The first question as to when to change oil. As to the initial question from Silentknight as to changing oil now vs. the spring. It makes no difference, do it when it makes logistical sense.

In terms of leaving 'used oil' in an engine over the winter, i.e. changing in the fall vs. spring. This is mostly driven by convenience. The idea that the engine will sit and corrode over the winter unless new oil is present isn't true unless you have some other problem like lots of water in the crankcase. Whether to change every year or not really depends on how many hours the engine ran. If you ran several hundred hours then yes, change at the end of the season. If you ran a low number of hours then it can go another year. One thing I don't recommend is leaving the same oil in for years. But I will admit that isn't scientific and oil is quite stable but its also inexpensive so even if you run low hours change it at least every couple years.

Having analyzed millions of miles of field test data from trucks and cars, I don't find TBN (either ASTM D2896 or D4739) to be very definitive. I know the oil analysis labs put flags in at arbitrary levels but these aren't definitive. TAN (total acid number ASTM D664) also isn't definitive but the combination of TAN with TBN at least tells you when the base reserve is nearing its end (sometimes called TBN/TAN crossover point). However, I've seen oils run with low TBN but no indication that Cu, Pb, or other corrosion metals were increasing. All oils drop TBN fairly rapidly at the start. This is because much of the BN in modern oils is 'soft', i.e. derived from the nitrogen in the ashless dispersant and diphenylamine antioxidants as well as other chemicals. So called 'hard' base from metallic detergents is about the same in all modern CK4 oils because the amount of total sulfated ash is limited to about 1%. Modern engines do not appreciate high detergent oils due to the tight crownlands and high ring location (for emissions).

Many marine engines are older models where current lubricants far exceed the performance needs of these engines. Modern oils have a longer life because they have much more performance additives and all modern oils use hydrocracked base oils (essentially a synthesized base oil). Chevron alludes to this by labeling their oils as "IsoSyn", but all the current lubricants use such base oils.

While I have an affinity for Chevron, I would not hesitate to recommend similar products from Shell, ExxonMobil, Total, BP, or other major companies. OEM branded oils (Caterpillar, Deere, Cummins) are also good though not necessarily better than the major branded products. I do not recommend boutique oils from small companies. The big companies have the resources and brand reputation to stand behind their products. Qualifying an API CK-4 product costs $10-20 million dollars, so it is a big buck process. R&D to develop the additives, the formulations, and base oils is in the hundreds of millions, every year.
 
Let me make a comment as someone quite familiar with modern lubricant technology. Modern engine lubricants are deeply misunderstood. Lubricants are highly technical and the development costs are tens of millions of dollars. Very few outside of the additive and lubricant business really understand how things have changed over the years and how very complex modern formulations are. Simple measures like TBN alone are not particularly meaningful in determining oil life. Many people have opinions about engine oil but most don't have much actual knowledge. This includes mechanics who know engines but not lubricants.

The first question as to when to change oil. As to the initial question from Silentknight as to changing oil now vs. the spring. It makes no difference, do it when it makes logistical sense.

In terms of leaving 'used oil' in an engine over the winter, i.e. changing in the fall vs. spring. This is mostly driven by convenience. The idea that the engine will sit and corrode over the winter unless new oil is present isn't true unless you have some other problem like lots of water in the crankcase. Whether to change every year or not really depends on how many hours the engine ran. If you ran several hundred hours then yes, change at the end of the season. If you ran a low number of hours then it can go another year. One thing I don't recommend is leaving the same oil in for years. But I will admit that isn't scientific and oil is quite stable but its also inexpensive so even if you run low hours change it at least every couple years.

Having analyzed millions of miles of field test data from trucks and cars, I don't find TBN (either ASTM D2896 or D4739) to be very definitive. I know the oil analysis labs put flags in at arbitrary levels but these aren't definitive. TAN (total acid number ASTM D664) also isn't definitive but the combination of TAN with TBN at least tells you when the base reserve is nearing its end (sometimes called TBN/TAN crossover point). However, I've seen oils run with low TBN but no indication that Cu, Pb, or other corrosion metals were increasing. All oils drop TBN fairly rapidly at the start. This is because much of the BN in modern oils is 'soft', i.e. derived from the nitrogen in the ashless dispersant and diphenylamine antioxidants as well as other chemicals. So called 'hard' base from metallic detergents is about the same in all modern CK4 oils because the amount of total sulfated ash is limited to about 1%. Modern engines do not appreciate high detergent oils due to the tight crownlands and high ring location (for emissions).

Many marine engines are older models where current lubricants far exceed the performance needs of these engines. Modern oils have a longer life because they have much more performance additives and all modern oils use hydrocracked base oils (essentially a synthesized base oil). Chevron alludes to this by labeling their oils as "IsoSyn", but all the current lubricants use such base oils.

While I have an affinity for Chevron, I would not hesitate to recommend similar products from Shell, ExxonMobil, Total, BP, or other major companies. OEM branded oils (Caterpillar, Deere, Cummins) are also good though not necessarily better than the major branded products. I do not recommend boutique oils from small companies. The big companies have the resources and brand reputation to stand behind their products. Qualifying an API CK-4 product costs $10-20 million dollars, so it is a big buck process. R&D to develop the additives, the formulations, and base oils is in the hundreds of millions, every year.


So coming from a technical background on oils what are your opinions of synthetic vs conventional oil?
 
So coming from a technical background on oils what are your opinions of synthetic vs conventional oil?

I have to smile since this is ALWAYS the question people ask. First let me preface this by saying some engines (BMW/MB etc) specify synthetic so always used what is specified lest your warranty go poof.

OK are synthetics inherently better? No. First thing is that synthetic is really a marketing term, not a technical term. In point of fact essentially ALL modern oils use 'synthesized' base oil. That's what hydrocracking and isomerizing is, synthesizing molecules that were not present in the crude oil to start with. Most 'synthetic' oils use a higher viscosity index base oil which allows broader cross grading with reasonable amount of viscosity modifier. There are many sources of these stocks. In some cases like Shell they actually start with natural gas to make a base oil (Shell GTL for example). So many synthetics are 5W-40 or some other wide cross grade. But not all are wide, Shell labels their Rotella T6 as 'synthetic' since they use their GTL stock. In terms of things like thermal stability, synthetics have no inherent advantage, despite popular perception driven by marketing! The high viscosity index base oils do provide better blending flexibility to meet the complex balance of performance and viscometric properties now required. However, keep in mind this extra performance is really for truly extreme conditions that have little relevance for most operational conditions. As performance of main tier oils have increased the difference between them and the premium synthetics has been compressed both in terms of the amount of additive and performance. In the real world under normal conditions, it is difficult to impossible to see any benefit of synthetic products. I've seen field tests ( fleet tests with multiple units on each oil) having both 'synthetic' and 'conventional' products side by side and you simply couldn't claim a difference. This was true of both diesel and gasoline engines (these tests run hundreds of thousands of miles). This is no surprise given that the difference in a CK4 'conventional' and CK-4 'synthetic' additive system is typically quite minor. Not a surprise after you've spent 20 or 30 million dollars developing a core performance additive system you're not going to do a completely new development just for a synthetic marketing claim - the economics prevent it.


Most boats normally don't present a condition that is in any way extreme, especially a trawler! Cooling is very predictable, and conditions are fairly steady state. We don't have extreme low temperature starting, e.g. -20F, where a wide cross grade like 5W40 would help. In fact all the extreme testing oils go through stress conditions that most boats just don't see: extreme high temperature, cycling from rapidly, or never reaching operating temperature (short trip). Of course if you're operating a small pusher tug these generalizations wouldn't apply!

So, unless your engine calls for synthetic, I wouldn't bother with it. Use a good quality oil, most of our engines will work well with API CK-4. If you have a newer engine, make sure to use an oil that meets the manufacturer's specification (Volvo has the VDS system, Cummins CES, Caterpillar ECF, etc). Almos all the majors CK4 oils also claim the OEM claims (Delo, Rotella, Delvac, etc). Many boats engines are 20+ years old so the current oils are far beyond what even the top oils of that era were.
 
Slowmo
2 additional questions...

How about turbo diesels do they change the recommendations or still not severe duty?

Any thoughts on using straight grade diesel oil in warm Wx vs multi vis with ~30% additives / vis modifiers? Generally (my Yanmar at least) show either OK but have always heard straight grade better as long as temps warm?
 
I do mine in fall,so the acids aren’t sitting all winter,I am a full time liveaboard and take my boat out in the winter months on nice days
 
They're almost certainly playing it safe. Figuring that someone will use the worst oil that meets their specs and the engine will see near worst-case operating conditions for oil life.
Warranty claim driven.
 
As a side thought, I wonder how many of us ignore manufacturer's recommended maintenance schedules for our cars? I'm guessing most of us do regular oil changes at somewhat suggested intervals. Why would we not wnat to do that on our boats that cost many times as much as our cars do?
 
As a side thought, I wonder how many of us ignore manufacturer's recommended maintenance schedules for our cars? I'm guessing most of us do regular oil changes at somewhat suggested intervals. Why would we not wnat to do that on our boats that cost many times as much as our cars do?


I've adapted maintenance schedules on cars plenty of times depending on how the car is used, whether I've done analysis on used oil that's come out of it, what oil it's getting vs what the minimum spec is, etc. I tend to stay a bit on the conservative side and don't try to push the limits, however.
 

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