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Old 07-26-2019, 01:15 PM   #21
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Question on your Racors...

Tiki,
I have the same engine.

I have some thoughts, but first, you said you were using 20 micron Racor filters... Is that a typo? Racor makes 2, 10 and 30 micron filters.

Are you using 30 micron or 2 micron filters?

If you're using 2 micron filters, JD will tell you to switch to 30 micron filters. 2 micron produce too much resistance for the engine fuel pump.

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Old 07-26-2019, 02:47 PM   #22
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Don't know much about this particular engine but most engines don't allow their fuel (lift) pump to run unless the engine is actually running. Of course this is easy with a mechanical lift pump b/c it runs off the camshaft.
With an electric fuel pump it is a different story. It seems to me that whatever method is used on your engine may be malfunctioning.
Not a good advertisement for JD if they can't help you through this quickly. If they insist on making things more complicated than they need to be then, it seems to me, they have an obligation to help customers who are wading through something like this.
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Old 07-26-2019, 04:39 PM   #23
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May God save us all from electronically controlled diesel engines. Give me the old Ford Lehman's or Perkins, DD's or even Gardners. No ECU's no sensors just a big old reliable hunk o' iron.
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Old 07-26-2019, 06:44 PM   #24
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Right on. Perkins rock. If it won't run, it is somewhere in the fuel system that there is a problem, and not a lot of things to go wrong. However even a small check valve in the fuel delivery system can bring things to a halt if it gets plugged up. (It happened to me)
I love my Perkins 4-108. I liked it so well that I actually have a spare, just in case.
Parts are pretty easy to find, and even run of the mill diesel places can rebuild and calibrate things like the atomizers if they fail. My engine easily swings an 18" prop pushing a 14 ton boat to hull speed. (displacement sailboat) I would never consider having anything other than a Perkins marine diesel in a boat, and I even live in Wisconsin near a John Deere plant. John Deere is a good reliable company making durable products, Having said that, Perkins has been doing it much longer and has been making marine diesel engines for more than 50 years.
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Old 07-26-2019, 06:55 PM   #25
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Before anyone believes a particular engine is without pros and cons..... you may want to do some homework.
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Old 07-26-2019, 07:52 PM   #26
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Before anyone believes a particular engine is without pros and cons..... you may want to do some homework.
That's true, but I base my reply on 17 years of experience with my Perkins. They are just good tough old engines.
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Old 07-27-2019, 09:00 AM   #27
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"Before anyone believes a particular engine is without pros and cons..... you may want to do some homework.'


They also might want to check if the company selling the engine actually built the engine , or simply marinized it.
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Old 07-30-2019, 03:04 PM   #28
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John Deere, in the agricultural world has been shutting owners out from being able to repair their own equipment. There have been numerous lawsuits involving farm equipment and the outcomes have been mixed. Some of that may at some point have an effect on marine engines. With sensors being 'networked' and requiring ECU programming to get them accepted by the system, you have to have specialized software and authorization to do simple repairs like change a pressure sensor.

There is no factory service representative available on board your vessel while underway to tell the ECU to accept a replacement sensor/actuator/part. I do not believe this is specific to John Deere either.

I do like simple, mechanical engines and components in a boat.
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Old 07-30-2019, 04:20 PM   #29
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I have a 2002 Dodge pickup with a Cummins 6BT 220 HP diesel. The engine is mechanically injected but electronically controlled. It has an ECU, a throttle potentiometer, and an electronic position controlled injection pump ( same setup an my tier 2 4045TFM75 John Deere). The truck now has 474,000 miles (9,480 +/- hours) on it. So far, I've replaced the throttle potentiometer twice.

This technology isn't new, probably 20+ years old. Probably in excess of 95% of the cars and trucks on the road in the USA have ECUs and related electronic components. The world is not coming to an end because of ECUs.

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Old 07-30-2019, 09:25 PM   #30
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I agree with that . The old saying KISS. "Keep It Simple Stupid" applies very well to yachts. I have seen boats as harbor queens because they just are too complex and difficult when there is a system problem. A certain amount of complexity is hard to get
away from. Radars and GPS and even AIS systems may be necessary, but when they
don't work, where does it leave you when you are a thousand miles off shore? Get out the old sextant. Does anyone know how to use one of those anymore? I mean you can't find your position as good as with a GPS, (except those sailors who are experts at it) but you can be pretty close.

As for John Deere and some other manufacturing companies there is a common problem in that they have distributors and dealers who they like to support. They attempt to control the support of their products by controlling their support parts and
information so that it is only available to these distributors and dealers. Individuals are kept in the dark, and are therefore made to rely on these company entities. If they have a problem. Unfortunately 1000 miles from any dealer puts your own safety at risk if you have a problem.
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:54 AM   #31
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The real problem is the air police.

Their exhaust demands are the cause of 30,000 PSI fuel systems and injector systems that must fire 3,4,5 times for each power stroke.

The extreme heat required for cat converters and DEF has kept them off smaller vessels .

The boating world would be delighted to to return to mechanical engines , but the bar keeps being raised!

So far no eng mfg has created an easy to convert engine , change cylinder heads ? to allow a nice fixable 3rd world system.
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Old 07-31-2019, 08:34 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FF View Post
The real problem is the air police.

Their exhaust demands are the cause of 30,000 PSI fuel systems and injector systems that must fire 3,4,5 times for each power stroke.

The extreme heat required for cat converters and DEF has kept them off smaller vessels .

The boating world would be delighted to to return to mechanical engines , but the bar keeps being raised!

So far no eng mfg has created an easy to convert engine , change cylinder heads ? to allow a nice fixable 3rd world system.
FF, all the issues associated with high pressure common rail diesel engines are short term and will be solved next year. After last night's presidential debate aka war on fossil fuels, it's pretty clear that by 2022, all our boats are either going to be Dock Queens or powered by solar, sails, or oars.

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Old 07-31-2019, 11:48 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O C Diver View Post
This technology isn't new, probably 20+ years old. Probably in excess of 95% of the cars and trucks on the road in the USA have ECUs and related electronic components. The world is not coming to an end because of ECUs.

Ted
The problem is this isn't the 20 year old technology of ECU's. The shift is to networked, 'secured' systems. On agricultural equipment and some cars and trucks the sensors and various components all have unique serial numbers and are networked with CAN bus. The newer ECUs that are built this way are being setup to only allow acceptance of new parts by an authorized user and the parts have to be accepted by the system with proprietary software. The battle has been over this software and whether a user has the right to repair their own equipment or not.

You can physically change out a part but the computer will refuse to use it until it gets authorized to do so. If that tech moves over to marine engines it may simply mean that you will have to have service done by an authorized technician.
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Old 07-31-2019, 12:42 PM   #34
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Give me an old CAT motor. If it has fuel and you can get it to turn over it will run.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:13 PM   #35
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So you "own" an engine but you are not allowed to work on it?
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Old 07-31-2019, 04:26 PM   #36
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So you "own" an engine but you are not allowed to work on it?
I think that's the general idea. As far as I know, this has not yet happened on Marine engines. It's in the agricultural world where the battle is really heating up as well as with consumer electronics.
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:33 PM   #37
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The problem is this isn't the 20 year old technology of ECU's. The shift is to networked, 'secured' systems. On agricultural equipment and some cars and trucks the sensors and various components all have unique serial numbers and are networked with CAN bus. The newer ECUs that are built this way are being setup to only allow acceptance of new parts by an authorized user and the parts have to be accepted by the system with proprietary software. The battle has been over this software and whether a user has the right to repair their own equipment or not.

You can physically change out a part but the computer will refuse to use it until it gets authorized to do so. If that tech moves over to marine engines it may simply mean that you will have to have service done by an authorized technician.
Yes, I'm aware of what you're saying. It's been going on in the car industry for a number of years. Own a BMW and want to change the battery? You will have to get it recognized by the internal computer.

My point was that these units on a whole are very reliable. Sure, there are going to be some things you can't repair yourself and will have to go to the dealer. It's always been that way. I don't have the expertise to rebuild an injection pump. I'm likely going to someone to get a new one or have mine rebuilt. I guess a lot of this speaks to having a good relationship with your dealer.

I'm pretty sure JD charges their dealers for software. If I were JD, I would offer the consumer the option to buy the software for their specific make, model, and serial numerbered unit. Sell them the PC interface also. If they want to purchase the next upgraded version, sell them that also. Lots of money to be made selling software.

Ted
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Old 07-31-2019, 06:01 PM   #38
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My point was that these units on a whole are very reliable. Sure, there are going to be some things you can't repair yourself and will have to go to the dealer. It's always been that way. I don't have the expertise to rebuild an injection pump. I'm likely going to someone to get a new one or have mine rebuilt. I guess a lot of this speaks to having a good relationship with your dealer.

Ted
That is true. With an injection pump you can carry a spare and bolt it on if you wanted to, nothing prevents you from doing so. With the artificial restrictions put in with software, the options are limited for no reason that benefits the user/owner. There are going to be far reaching implications hinging on the result of these fights over 'right to repair'. It will be interesting to see what happens. I see that there is another thread on this very topic.
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Old 07-31-2019, 07:08 PM   #39
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You will be receiving updates to your vehicles ecm over WiFi before very long. As soon as they figure out the legality. The technology is already there. Just like your iPhone.
Many vehicles are on the cusp of pushing trouble codes directly to the dealer via cellular data. The problem will be understood and part waiting before you arrive. There is a lot of upside.

Remember your first car in the 60’s or 70’s? If you made it to 100,000 miles how many spark plugs, tires, ball joints, mufflers, or wheel bearings had you replaced by then? And the body rot?
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:42 PM   #40
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Electric pump

I believe the electric fuel pump should be installed after the racor. That info is from racor.
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