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Old 01-17-2020, 10:33 AM   #1
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Foredeck cleat vs bollard for anchoring

I'm currently in the process of re-doing my ground tackle this winter. Old windlass is off the boat, etc. New Maxwell HRC10-8 in the garage waiting for install. But now I've got a few details to figure out. I need to install a cleat or bollard of some form as a point to secure the anchor rode.

This cleat / bollard will mount on top of the pulpit, which gives me an issue with just using a big cleat. All of the suitable size cleats I've looked at that match my existing ones use 5/16" bolts. The pulpit plus reinforced section of deck under it is just under 7 inches thick. Nobody makes a 5/16" bolt that long, it seems, so I'd be forced to mount the cleat just to the pulpit before bolting it back onto the boat (it'll be removed for part of the re-work).

So I'm thinking, what about a samson post / bollard like this? https://www.defender.com/product3.js...988&id=3707393

It would be mounted on top of the pulpit, so going through a 1/2" layer of teak, some fiberglass, more wood, then a 2-ish inch thick section of deck (there's a thick layer of extra coring under the pulpit area) with a large backing plate. I'd expect that kind of mounting thickness would be sufficient to handle the increased leverage from the line attaching to a bollard higher off the deck. That bollard mounts with 1/2" bolts, which I can easily get in 8 inch length, allowing it to mount all the way through (which the windlass also will in addition to the other bolts holding the pulpit to the deck).

What does everyone think would be the better solution? Keep in mind, this setup is only for anchoring, not dock lines. There are already a pair of cleats outboard of the pulpit for dock lines. A picture of the pulpit with the old windlass removed is attached for reference.
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:50 AM   #2
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5/16 stainless threaded rod came to mind
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:52 AM   #3
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5/16 stainless threaded rod came to mind
I had that thought as well, but how would I handle that at the top end on a cleat that's meant to accept a flat or oval head machine screw into a counter-sunk recess?
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:57 AM   #4
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Old 01-17-2020, 10:59 AM   #5
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I like the bollard. More surface area at the base; good when there is compressible wood. But, is chain going to be an issue too ?
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:04 AM   #6
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In terms of chain, the plan is 75 feet of chain (5/16" G4) backed by 300 feet of 5/8" 8 plait. So it would be fairly rare that I'd be anchoring somewhere shallow enough to not have some line out. And if I do end up in that situation, I'd be using a snubber, so I'd still be tying off line, although I could take chain around the bollard as a backup in that situation.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:07 AM   #7
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Greetings,
Mr. rs. "...how would I handle that at the top end..." Several options IMO. Large SS washer with acorn nut. 5/16 nut welded on end of threaded rod with underside of nut machined to match counter sunk taper. Thick SS washer welded on rod and cleat taper filled with JB Weld. Any welding might be applied over full then machined to a nice finish.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:10 AM   #8
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What was being used before, the bow cleats to either side? Those would make a good snubber tie-offs.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:15 AM   #9
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What was being used before, the bow cleats to either side? Those would make a good snubber tie-offs.
Yup, I was typically bridling to the bow cleats on other side. In light weather, I'd let the windlass hold the line (the old powerwinch had a solenoid driven pawl lock setup on the output shaft to permit this without the load being transmitted through the geartrain and motor, but I didn't trust it in more than light wind).

However, the boat sails a good bit at anchor, even a little more with the lines attached further aft at the deck cleats rather than out on the roller. So having to bridle every time proved to be an annoyance with no benefit, and if we yawed too far, the bridle lines would sometimes become a chafe concern where the pulpit meets the forward part of the hull.

The whole original anchoring setup was a bit under-sized and under-thought on this boat, unfortunately. And now that it's being used for more than a lunch hook, it's time to fix that. Fortunately the structural bits were made strong enough even though the windlass was wimpy, couldn't handle chain and no good tie-off point was provided.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:32 AM   #10
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You might contemplate simply drilling for larger bolts 5/16 would scare me.


Bronze carriage bolts have smooth heads .
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:37 AM   #11
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I donít see any reason not to use the 1/2Ē bolts. Much simpler than threaded rod. Certainly strong enough.
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Old 01-17-2020, 11:41 AM   #12
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I donít see any reason not to use the 1/2Ē bolts. Much simpler than threaded rod. Certainly strong enough.
That and the point about wood being compressible is pushing me towards the bollard. There's not enough meat in the cleat bases to drill the holes much without causing a strength concern, being that I'd be using herreshoff style cleats like what the boat already has.

If I go with the bollard, the biggest thing will be to sit down with the bollard and windlass and figure out the bollard's exact placement so it doesn't get in the way of line leading off the windlass but also doesn't put the line at a significant angle coming off the roller. A cleat would solve that, as the line would simply pass over the top of it while not tied off.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:41 AM   #13
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U will have to solve some interference issues.
Maybe the wildcat is to port of center, the chain stopper is centerline and forward and the post center is stb of c/l. Keeping the post port side of the tube at c/l.
U dont want post ear collision with chain when tight when made fast with wildcat, although the usual case is to use the chain stopper.
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Old 01-18-2020, 09:56 AM   #14
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I'm figuring I'd mount the bollard with the arms facing front to back, as that would give the least interference and would put the wide dimension of the backing plate in the most loaded direction.

Doing that, I should only have to go a little off center with both items to get enough clearance.

Due to the height of the wildcat on this windlass (chain enters it about 6.5" above the deck), I'm planning to skip the chain stopper. Typically I'll be anchored with some amount of line out, so the chain stopper wouldn't be useful as a backup there anyway. And using a piece of line from the anchor shackle to the bollard to hold the anchor in position when stowed is easy enough.
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Old 01-18-2020, 11:41 AM   #15
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Mr. Overkill here.

First of all, most thread rod (all thread) is mediocre quality at best. Try to find some that isn't made in China, has a hardness rating, and stretch and shear ratings. Rod couplings are better, but not high quality fasteners either.

Lets start with what this cleat / bollard is supposed to do. When you screw up, and are hanging on for dear life in 50 knot winds, getting beaten like a bad stepchild, preying the anchor doesn't pull out, isn't the time to wish you had used bigger better bolts.

What is your windlass attached with?

While I'm not opposed to the bollard, I prefer the cleat as it lowers the pulling force, making the issue shear strength of the hardware. If you choose the bollard, bring the line first around the post as close to the base plate as possible to reduce leverage.

Backing plates are key in the situations. For the cleat, I would consider 2 stainless plates, one underneath everything and the other between the cleat and the wood pulpit. The one under the cleat can be corner rounded, buffed and polished to match the cleat. Both plates, if of an appropriate size, will keep the wood and coring from compressing. I would upsize the cleat till you get atleast 3/8" hardware that doesn't require cobbling.

That's my opinion anyway; worth what you paid for it.

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Old 01-18-2020, 11:55 AM   #16
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Foredeck cleat vs bollard for anchoring

Yeah, a cleat with top plate certainly works too. It sits lower, somewhat an advantage.
Big pro for the post is it allows more than one heavy line. Or even a chain and a line. Useful for a Bahamian moor or the like. And built in top plate. Both can work.
I have done a lot of double anchor drops at the bow due to tidal currents , but that may not be a rqmt here.
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Old 01-18-2020, 12:08 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
...However, the boat sails a good bit at anchor...
Our boat used to swing something awful with 30' of chain and a nylon rope rode. Yours might swing a bit less with 75' of chain, but in deep anchorages and a lot of rode out it might still be a problem.

Have you read about riding sails?

Our boat used to yo-yo and swing horribly. When the boat was driven downwind it would hit the end of the rode, load the anchor, and stretch the rode out. When it bounced back up wind as the stretch came out of the rode, the boat would fall off the wind near the apex of the bounce, go abeam to the wind, and be driven downwind again for another shock load on the anchor, another rode stretch, and another yo-yo bounce back upwind to do it all over again.

See photo in link below of our riding sail. Problem solved with a simple/cheap solution. Keeps the bow into the wind so it can't fall off one way or the other, and keeps shock loads on the anchor to a minimum. Boat still swings a bit, but no more of those downwind romps and massive bounce backs on a shock loaded anchor and rode. Chafe at the anchor roller also reduced.

Trawler Forum - View Single Post - Steady Sails...Do they work?
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:38 PM   #18
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Sampson post. A bollard is on the hard.
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Old 01-18-2020, 01:49 PM   #19
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I have a sampson post and like the big size of it. Easy to tighten the rope and use it to tighten the chain while underway so to be sure the anchor will not go loose.

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Old 01-18-2020, 02:24 PM   #20
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I agree with those folks who are concerned about the small size of 5/16 bolts (or threaded rod). I ran the numbers and in 70000 psi stainless, with a minor thread diameter of about .245" it would break at about 3300 lbs. Definitely not enough for anchor gear.


edit - as an FYI, McMaster has 316 stainless bolts 5/16 up to 10" long. 1/2" up to 14" long. A 1/2" bolt at 70000 psi gets you up to almost 9000lbs breaking strength.


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