EXAMPLE: Defender vs West Marine. Whats up???

[FWT]

I am very familiar with Ace. Decades ago in a different professional life Ace corporate was a customer. I knew the brass well.

I know a local Ace franchise owner. And less well another one in an adjacent market.

Its still all about local management / franchise owner management skills. My local Ace was once THEE example I used when talking about shopping locally. Same owner, same locations but I now routinely drive literally past his store for an additional 20 miles or so to avoid shopping at that Ace. He took a bad turn in his stores and I just won't go there anymore.

Management, management, management.

 

[BandB]

I am very familiar with Ace. Decades ago in a different professional life Ace corporate was a customer. I knew the brass well.

I know a local Ace franchise owner. And less well another one in an adjacent market.

Its still all about local management / franchise owner management skills. My local Ace was once THEE example I used when talking about shopping locally. Same owner, same locations but I now routinely drive literally past his store for an additional 20 miles or so to avoid shopping at that Ace. He took a bad turn in his stores and I just won't go there anymore.

Management, management, management.

We've seen it as well, many reasons. Some get tired, some lazy. Problem is they become complacent and then many want to sell, but no buyers. We're very familiar with the stories of driving past one to another.

 

[SoWhat]

Be aware that West Marine will price match

WM has so many rules and restrictions re price matching that as a practical matter they don't price match. At one point they were very generous and I started returning to WM as my main source. Then they starting refusing to match due to their rules so I stopped going to WM.

Local WM is 3/4 hr drive and local marine shop will order anything from Kellogg catalog with 1 day delivery at a cheaper price. I can't think of anything I need that can't wait a day.

 

[mvweebles]

Ace Hardware repeatedly comes out tops in surveys of service. You see the commercials, now with the theme of "The Helpful Place." Certainly not true of 100% of stores or employees, but if you make it a theme, emphasize it, then it can happen and work.

If west marine were like Ace - slight premium but helpful associates and decent selection, I'd be all over them. Ace has a great business model and really operates in a seam for retail hardware.

I have a small place in a large town in a rural county in Colorado. I've been a semi-resident since 1987. "Gene" showed my all sorts of things - how to wire a 3-way switch, how to faux-paint a steel door so it looked like wood, and all sorts of stuff. He's 85 now but still works at the store part time.

There's space for west marine. But not under their current strategy. Neither fish nor foul these days.

Peter

 

[Hippocampus]

+1 for Hamilton and some of the Ace stores. Also like fastenal. Find avoiding any marine supply store/vendor useful if at all possible. Most of the stuff on a boat isn’t completely marine specific. Will go to plumbing supply, rigging, landscaping, electrical houses before even looking at marine supply. When I was a sailor would get a friend or three together and buy things like line in uncut spools. Same with hose, wire, shrink wrap connectors, oil. Found even if stuff sat for a year or two buying in bulk allowed you to avoid WM and the like and saved boat bucks even with the inconvenience of dividing it and it’s sitting scattered in various basements.

 

[Loop chaser]

McMaster Carr supply My go to always first for any project I’m working on ,check there web site is the best.

 

[skipper724]

Defender vs west marine

If you live in CT, West Marine will match Defenders price saving a car ride. I agree that West Marine has become more of a clothing store!

 

[Roy]

Another good source is Hamilton Marine. Started in Searsport ME and now have a few locations in Maine. They know their stuff and support the Maine lobster fleet. They've always had what I needed.

 

[NEtrawler58]

If you live in CT, West Marine will match Defenders price saving a car ride. I agree that West Marine has become more of a clothing store!

Fine except WM has only about 5% (or less) of stock than what you'll find at Defender along with friendly knowledgeable help. Downside is you'll almost always end up leaving with more than you intended. Or is that an upside?

 

[Mischief Managed]

Another good source is Hamilton Marine. Started in Searsport ME and now have a few locations in Maine. They know their stuff and support the Maine lobster fleet. They've always had what I needed.

The new Hamilton Marine store that opened just over the NH/ME border in Kittery has become my go-to. It's an extra 10 -15 minutes each way compared to my local WM, but it's vastly superior in pricing and inventory. Hamilton is not as comprehensively stocked for cruising as Defender (they cater more to commercial boats), but the hardware, plumbing, and electrical departments are fantastic and the prices are great. I'll be there early on April 2 for the open house sale.

 

[Iggy]

WM is almost always expensive. For some items it's a small premium, for others it's massive. And occasionally their price on an item is actually good. I pretty much consider them a last resort as a result.

Yep! I call them "the Neiman Marcus of boating."

 

[CaptTom]

The new Hamilton Marine store that opened just over the NH/ME border in Kittery has become my go-to...

...Hamilton is not as comprehensively stocked for cruising as Defender (they cater more to commercial boats), but the hardware, plumbing, and electrical departments are fantastic and the prices are great. I'll be there early on April 2 for the open house sale.

I may see you there.

Just so you know, the new HM in Kittery is smaller than some of their other stores, and it's been slow going ramping up their inventory. Expect bigger selections as their business there grows. There's been a huge pent-up demand for their products and service around here. It was a smart move for them to take over the old Jackson's Hardware. I wouldn't be surprised to see them look to expand. Would be great if they found a spot over the bridge in (tax free) NH.

 

[Roy]

One more thing to consider. The last two times I ordered from WM I did so because of price considerations. It was for bottom paint. Both times the cans were not packed well and came through dented. I complained but got no recourse.

I just ordered bottom paint yesterday from Defender. Their price was the best and the single gallon can was packed very very well. No dents. Received the package today (just 18 hours from placing the order). One satisfied customer!

 

[Group9]

If you live in CT, West Marine will match Defenders price saving a car ride. I agree that West Marine has become more of a clothing store!

Unfortunately, that's because a West Manager told me they make more money off clothing sales (because the markup is so high) than every other thing they sell put together. It's why the clothing area gets bigger and bigger in their stores. It's not our imagination.

 

[BandB]

Unfortunately, that's because a West Manager told me they make more money off clothing sales (because the markup is so high) than every other thing they sell put together. It's why the clothing area gets bigger and bigger in their stores. It's not our imagination.

And that's part of their problem as well. Just because the margins are higher on clothing does not mean they make more money on clothing. Margin is just one aspect and clothing has it's own set of challenges. Following that logic they should add jewelry as it's markup is even higher.

 

[CaptTom]

Plus, there are already plenty of "lifestyle clothing" stores. If that's the business the investors wanted to be in, they should have bought one of those chains, not (what used to be) a boating supply chain.


Honestly, I don't understand how these executives can justify their salaries. When they run WM into the ground, nobody wins. Not the investors, not the customers, not the suppliers, not the employees. Yet people keep treating them like they're geniuses.

 

[NEtrawler58]

Plus, there are already plenty of "lifestyle clothing" stores. If that's the business the investors wanted to be in, they should have bought one of those chains, not (what used to be) a boating supply chain.


Honestly, I don't understand how these executives can justify their salaries. When they run WM into the ground, nobody wins. Not the investors, not the customers, not the suppliers, not the employees. Yet people keep treating them like they're geniuses.

Correction, the execs win! Golden parachute, who cares?

 

[Group9]

And that's part of their problem as well. Just because the margins are higher on clothing does not mean they make more money on clothing. Margin is just one aspect and clothing has it's own set of challenges. Following that logic they should add jewelry as it's markup is even higher.

The other thing he said, was that they made the least money on electronics, and, except for customers expecting to find them at a West Marine, he would be happy to quit carrying them at all.

But, our local commercial boat chandlery often sells the exact brand of item for half to 3/4s of what West wants for it. ACCO chain is a good example.

We needed to replace ours a few years ago. West wanted 3.95 a foot for our size chain (5/16 G40 Short link) I bought it at 2.75 a foot at the local place.

 

[FWT]

The other thing he said, was that they made the least money on electronics, and, except for customers expecting to find them at a West Marine, he would be happy to quit carrying them at all.

I have been in 3 locations in the last year. Not one had anyone who could answer basic questions. I came in knowing more about them than they did. Its no wonder they make no money. No sales, no money.

 

[TStiles]

This has become an interesting thread. I hope WM stumbles across it.

In our community, the WM store tries to recruit from the boating community for their staff. From my observation, the tenure is very brief. I can only suspect that once on board, they're subjected to immature management skills / practices and thus elect to cut their employment short.

 

[BandB]

The other thing he said, was that they made the least money on electronics, and, except for customers expecting to find them at a West Marine, he would be happy to quit carrying them at all.

Even a comment like that reflects a problem. Again, my reference point is hardware. You don't make your money on the nuts and bolts and screws but you must be just as happy selling them and helping a customer. I just watch the various themes Ace has had over the years and it's become more than just words, instilled in most, although definitely not all. However, it's enough that they've gotten JD Power's top award 14 out of 15 years. Last year they were #1 in Staff and Service; In-store Experience; Online Experience; and Merchandise. In my previous life I did turn some businesses around and I only knew one way to do it, customer service. Couldn't do it on price, couldn't do it by cutting expenses, the only way I know is through service. Ace is "The Helpful Place." It was "The Helpful Hardware Place." Jingle is “Ace is the place with the helpful hardware folks.” Before that it was "Helpful Hardware Man." While the change from Man might be perceived as social, it's actually much more and West should do the same, be inviting to female employees and customers. In Hardware, Paint is a huge area and who makes decisions on paint colors? What about gardening?

Store employees shouldn't even be concerned with profit by item, their job it to help and sell to you. Much higher the products to carry and pricing and mix is made, but if it's in there, they should enthusiastically sell it. I just mark it down as a disgruntled employee who didn't like the effort it takes to handle electronics. Employees making such statements really reflects how deep their problems run.

If L Catterton wanted to turn West around with the purchase, they need to make a statement that is so strong and powerful no one can miss it. It must hit you in the face. New look, new merchandising, new employees, new approach. It cannot be a small tweak. If a year from now, you don't have people posting on TF about the changes they've seen, then you have failed and it will continue to muddle along like it's been.

I think of two major retailers going through transformations today. Bed, Bath and Beyond has changed dramatically. I don't personally like the changes, but they are unmistakable. JC Penney is a bit behind, but their changes are and will be dramatic too. I believe theirs will save and change the view of the company. Target continues to be a champion, always upgrading, always adding, always differentiating from Walmart and others. You can't remain stagnant.

I've seen no signs from West Marine so far and the clock keeps ticking.

 

[mvweebles]

Even a comment like that reflects a problem. Again, my reference point is hardware. You don't make your money on the nuts and bolts and screws but you must be just as happy selling them and helping a customer. I just watch the various themes Ace has had over the years and it's become more than just words, instilled in most, although definitely not all. However, it's enough that they've gotten JD Power's top award 14 out of 15 years. Last year they were #1 in Staff and Service; In-store Experience; Online Experience; and Merchandise. In my previous life I did turn some businesses around and I only knew one way to do it, customer service. Couldn't do it on price, couldn't do it by cutting expenses, the only way I know is through service. Ace is "The Helpful Place." It was "The Helpful Hardware Place." Jingle is “Ace is the place with the helpful hardware folks.” Before that it was "Helpful Hardware Man." While the change from Man might be perceived as social, it's actually much more and West should do the same, be inviting to female employees and customers. In Hardware, Paint is a huge area and who makes decisions on paint colors? What about gardening?



Store employees shouldn't even be concerned with profit by item, their job it to help and sell to you. Much higher the products to carry and pricing and mix is made, but if it's in there, they should enthusiastically sell it. I just mark it down as a disgruntled employee who didn't like the effort it takes to handle electronics. Employees making such statements really reflects how deep their problems run.



If L Catterton wanted to turn West around with the purchase, they need to make a statement that is so strong and powerful no one can miss it. It must hit you in the face. New look, new merchandising, new employees, new approach. It cannot be a small tweak. If a year from now, you don't have people posting on TF about the changes they've seen, then you have failed and it will continue to muddle along like it's been.



I think of two major retailers going through transformations today. Bed, Bath and Beyond has changed dramatically. I don't personally like the changes, but they are unmistakable. JC Penney is a bit behind, but their changes are and will be dramatic too. I believe theirs will save and change the view of the company. Target continues to be a champion, always upgrading, always adding, always differentiating from Walmart and others. You can't remain stagnant.



I've seen no signs from West Marine so far and the clock keeps ticking.

So the part I tried to buy - a Blue Sea ATO terminal block - was in stock (3 of them) but website said to call store for confirmation. I did so and was told it was at will call. When I show up, no one is at will call. I tried having someone paged. No dice. Then I remember "gee, they said there were three in stock - should be two more on the shelf" which there were. So I bought one of the two and left the first one stranded in will call. A couple days later I was in for something else and tried to tell the guy at will call to release the part but he was busy and I wasn't interested in waiting. For all I know it's still in will call 2-weeks later.

My point is WM is way behind Home Depot and competitors in online shopping. And Home Depot is a ways behind Amazon. No hope for WM without major investment.

Peter

 

[FWT]

For what its worth.

I've been in several West Marine stores lately, and I've purchased stuff there as well as online.

Some serious sales have begun there. If shopping its now worth checking out. Pulled the trigger on a Vulcan anchor and got it 20% off there. List price was the same there as any other source I checked, so it was a true 20% off. Some other items suggest pricing has come into the range of normal available pricing. Their current sales make it a bargain. Shipping was free, which was an additional significant savings on a heavy anchor.

I picked up a dingy anchor too, online, at a serious discount. Well under 50% off.

Fulfillment seems to be shipping out of any of their stores that have the item in stock, not a central warehouse.

The stores are lightly staffed but the staff quality I experienced was decent. Not bothersome, but quick to assist if you flag them down. Not underfoot. I didn't need anything with complex knowledge.

It appears to me the new owners are at work, but its a work in process. Possibly just trying to dump some inventory ahead of some other adjustment. Time will tell.

FYI

 

[OldDan1943]

I was at West marine recently and realized they have few things I need.

I do not know anything about their fishing stuff.

 

[Don Souza]

Hi Peter,
Don't forget Fisheries Supply in Seattle Good prices and stock. Thay have saved me a lot of money. All orders are out the next morning.
Don Souza

 

[Marco Flamingo]

Hi Peter,
Don't forget Fisheries Supply in Seattle Good prices and stock. Thay have saved me a lot of money. All orders are out the next morning.
Don Souza

And if they don't have it in stock, Fisheries Supply has an interesting policy that can save a bunch on shipping for some items. I wanted to put disc brakes on a small boat trailer and had to get a larger axle. I could get the axle in a week. The manufacturer would ship it to Fisheries and I'd pay shipping. But if I put in my order and was willing to wait until Fisheries got their next scheduled order from this East Coast manufacturer (which was only once or twice a year), there was no shipping. I was told that they planned on making an order in a few weeks. So I put in my order, waited a month, and saved +$120 in shipping. It wasn't like I was without a trailer and I had plenty of projects to keep me busy until the axle showed up.

 

[Hippocampus]

Went to Waste marine as needed butt connectors. Heat shrink and needed 16 out 12 in. They had 3 that would work at $9.95 each. Needed 6. Bought 10 of them with next day for $12 and change. Total. Now have 4 spares and job done for less than 2 from WM.

Expect WM to fold. Maybe they make their money as a clothing store but you don’t go in there unless you need something now. They don’t make any sale if you stop going there. Even Amazon is cheaper. Now becomes next day and is still cheaper.

 

[rslifkin]

Went to Waste marine as needed butt connectors. Heat shrink and needed 16 out 12 in. They had 3 that would work at $9.95 each. Needed 6. Bought 10 of them with next day for $12 and change.

Expect WM to fold. Maybe they make their money as a clothing store but you don’t go in there unless you need something now. They don’t make any sale if you stop going there. Even Amazon is cheaper. Now becomes next day and is still cheaper.

I see pricing stuff like that with WM all the time. But sometimes I do find stuff where they're surprisingly reasonable. A couple weeks ago I needed a 3 gallon gas tank for the dinghy. Soonest I could get one anywhere online was about 3 days. WM had them on the shelf so I could get one the same day, and oddly, it was within a dollar of the cheapest reputable choice from Amazon, Defender, and everywhere else I looked.

 

[Bmarler]

i've had a west marine commercial account for many years. when i first signed up things were pretty good. decent price discounts, decent part procurement. through the years they slowly got worse and worse, eventually they didn't carry anything i needed in store. 95% of what i wanted needed to be brought in and the discount schedule went to a tiered system that didn't work well with my purchase habits. staff got increasingly disinterested in helping, etc...
i went in a couple of weeks ago as they had a part i needed listed as being in stock at my local store.
things are different there now, just recently they brought back one of the best store managers we ever had there. she explained that they were trying out the new online ordering system and the website was evolving. her store was kind of a model that the rest would be looking at to see how the changes go.
turned out that the part i needed wasn't actually in stock as the website still has a few glitches they're working through. but she was really proactive getting what i needed coming in, and fast. she's sort of re-tooling the store, cutting staff but getting higher quality people. all in all i got a good feeling that things would be getting better. time will tell, but i'm going to start putting a regular amount of business their way again to see.
prices are still a crapshoot, some good, some horrible. but if they start carrying things in store again i would be happy to pay the premium for the convenience of same day availability.
it's hard to beat fisheries supply, and they'll continue to get the lions share of my business, but i'd like to see west make a comeback.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Here’s the store front of the West Marine store in Anacortes Wash. Been like this for many years.

There’s an image of a heavy cruiser and a sizable OB boat. One can only assume the two images represent the powerboating community w a big cruiser and OB boat common on Puget Sound.

The big cruiser has a big Bruce type anchor like many many heavier and slower yachts in the area whilst the OB, representing a modern and lighter pleasure boat has a Danforth type anchor that is also popular.

You’d think they would be representing their product by displaying the most popular high performance anchors of the day but the Claw has been around since the 70’s and the Danforth since 1938. Both anchors sell well despite their drawbacks but these images show that having the brand new thing that is very popular among consumers isn’t everything.

This image on the front of the very popular marine pleasureboat store amuses me every time I see it. Must be that for the anchoring most people do the Claw or the Danforth must be adequate for their needs.

However I’d much rather no one commented on the performance of either anchor at all much less other anchors. The image and where it is is (to me) is rather humorous and odd. That’s all