EXAMPLE: Defender vs West Marine. Whats up???

[BandB]

"I hate sending billionaires to space" is my way of saying I prefer not to order from Amazon if I have a local option.

Hopefully that will be a satisfactory answer.

Maybe I'm not analytical enough to be successful in business, and I'm OK with that.

Ok, now I understand. You hate using Amazon. I was trying to tie it to West Marine. You're not open to sending him on a one-way trip?

 

[CharlieO.]

No, I really don't wish harm on other people, I wish for everyone to live happy and peaceful lives.

I just wish for more local and in person business relationships.

 

[Comodave]

Unfortunately in today’s world that isn’t going to happen.

 

[BandB]

No, I really don't wish harm on other people, I wish for everyone to live happy and peaceful lives.

I just wish for more local and in person business relationships.

As a small business owner, I wish the same. Just not always possible. And I wish nothing bad for Bezos or others. I do dislike Amazon, but I also occasionally shop there. Buying marine products, I'm always dealing with a large company, just multiple different ones.

 

[Comodave]

It is different for everyone. Where we live Amazon is a lifesaver for us. There are basically almost zero local businesses.

 

[BandB]

It is different for everyone. Where we live Amazon is a lifesaver for us. There are basically almost zero local businesses.

Easy to hate them, but can't live without them sometimes.

 

[Group9]

A couple of days ago, I was headed to West Marine to pick up some Sikkens Cetol, because West Marine was advertising it on sale for $39 a quart. On the way there I stopped by my locally owned marine store and found it for sale at their regular everyday price of $37 a quart.

I buy stuff at West Marine, but it's after I've looked everywhere else for it first.

 

[NEtrawler58]

As a small business owner, I wish the same. Just not always possible. And I wish nothing bad for Bezos or others. I do dislike Amazon, but I also occasionally shop there. Buying marine products, I'm always dealing with a large company, just multiple different ones.

Just curious why you dislike Amazon. Is it because you don't like to compete with them? I don't get why anyone would dislike any particular business if it supplies you with what you need, unless they are using their profits for evil purposes or don't treat their employees well or something like that.

 

[mvweebles]

Amazon has been a lifesaver for me too, but I remain conflicted. Over the last 3-years, I've spent equal time at a rural mountain cabin in Colorado; our home in Florida, and in Ensenada Mexico. I've had significant projects at each location that required somewhat specialized gear, such as solar conversion on my camper van which I did last summer. Having Amazon has been helpful.

But.....their search function has deteriorated. Used to be that if I searched for a 3/4" bronze street elbow, the results would be, well...3/4" bronze street elbows. No longer - I now get different sizes, different materials, and I really need to hunt through the results to assure I get what I need, not what Amazon wants to sell me. This has pushed me more towards Mom & Pop shops with specialized knowledge such as for Cell/WiFi router kit for my boat or solar gear configuration.

Every few generations, a mammoth retailer comes along. I'm sure there was a point where it was unimaginable that Sears Roebuck & Co. would demise. But here we are. Hard to imagine Amazon will fall - they have proven amazingly adept at adapting and expanding, but history suggests they will eventually meet strong headwinds if not topple altogether.

BandB: I started this thread and, reading through, I am reminded of a thread from a year or so ago where new management for West Marine as announced. You had some very insightful observations, coupled with benefit-of-the-doubt support for the new CEO despite his not having a strong retail or marine background. Wonder what your take is these days?

Peter

 

[twistedtree]

No, I really don't wish harm on other people, I wish for everyone to live happy and peaceful lives.

I just wish for more local and in person business relationships.

So do I, and I wish more businesses would step up. I love the good local businesses where I am, and almost always go to them before ordering from Amazon (just using Amazon as an example). But so many businesses have failed to keep up, mostly in terms of inventory and/or quality of products, and sometimes in terms of pricing too.


Some people say it's impossible to compete brick-and-mortar vs online, but there are ample existence proofs that that's just not true. I visited 5 different brick and mortar stores yesterday, all with quality products, in stock, competitively priced, and with knowledgeable and helpful staff. One place, as he was working up by bill, paused and offered up an alternative and much better way to accomplish what I was trying to do. He talked me out a sale, but you can be sure I'll keep going there for hydraulic parts and hoses. Fantastic store.


Some people have figured out how to flourish in retail. Most have not. But that have always been true....

 

[kthoennes]

Amazon.....their search function has deteriorated...

You know I've noticed the same thing. Their search function is really awful. In fact, I often just run a Google search for the item instead but add "amazon" to the search string. (I know, I can narrow google search results to a single site but that's some keystrokes more cumbersome.) I'm sure Amazon has a zillion programmers refining their algorithms, but in my opinion it sucks. Kind of ridiculous I need to use a secondary search engine to search Amazon's site. I can't specify or require word matches, I can't exclude words, can't specify ship-from location, etc. Really surprises me. Ebay is far better.

I suppose Amazon may want you to browse. You search for an alternator and end up buying an umbrella -- but if I'm looking for a G4 soft white LED bulb -- well here, I just tried running that search. The fourth search result item was a trim ring for a residential can-style ceiling light. I don't get it. Must be on purpose to want me to browse anything else under the sun, but I find it plain annoying. I buy a lot more on eBay just because Amazon's search algorithm is so terrible.

 

[BandB]

Just curious why you dislike Amazon. Is it because you don't like to compete with them? I don't get why anyone would dislike any particular business if it supplies you with what you need, unless they are using their profits for evil purposes or don't treat their employees well or something like that.

I dislike them because they are predatory in their selling and pricing methods and give a misimpression to the market as to what is a reasonable price. This is because the margin on sales by them is not one that is profitable. Hence you see them raising the Prime charge once again and their major profits are from their operation of their cloud and other computer services. Meanwhile, they continue after more business segments with approaches that hurt a lot of businesses. Similarly, practices like free shipping are much like free lunch in that there is no such thing. Ultimately, the problem is that no one, Amazon included, can sell profitably at their prices and provide free shipping. It's also very difficult for their third party sellers.

I have no problem competing with them, but more and more for certain products which I don't sell, they are becoming the only source and I don't see that as good for anyone. It's like Prime, they got people all in, now substantial increases in price, but many feel they have no choice.

I once was anti-Walmart, but over the last few years they've become far better retail citizens even though still quite aggressive.

I think there is a point at which a company gets so large and pervasive, it's no longer in the public interest. That's why we have laws on monopolies and I do think the time will come in which Amazon will be forced to split. Whether that will be good or bad, I don't know. I think the verdict is still out on most forced splits. I don't think Amazon's ever increasing level and pervasiveness in so many areas is ultimately healthy for other businesses or for the consumer.

Understand too that long ago Jeff Bezos predicted a limited life for this run of Amazon. Even he saw the level of rise and success as not being sustainable at some point. We'll just wait and see, but they're never my first choice of purchasing options.

Now back to West Marine vs. Defender. I think Defender has always have a clear vision of who they were and what they were doing. Will that change with the sale, I don't know. I believe West Marine has long been lost and confused and with each change of management and ownership has only become more so, not less. I don't see any clear strategy or plan. I see nothing to build customer loyalty and constantly shifting strategies, none of which are truly executed. I don't think they know who they are or who they want to be. In no way do I attribute their problems to Amazon or anyone else, just to them. The segments I'd compare them to in looking for solutions are automotive where Advanced, Autozone, O'Reilly, and NAPA are successful and Hardware where Ace, True Value, Do It Best, Lowes and Home Depot are successful. With decent management and adequate capital, West Marine could have been successful, perhaps still could be, but I think time is rapidly running out. Then, as much as we complain, we will be down one major resource.

 

[BandB]

So do I, and I wish more businesses would step up. I love the good local businesses where I am, and almost always go to them before ordering from Amazon (just using Amazon as an example). But so many businesses have failed to keep up, mostly in terms of inventory and/or quality of products, and sometimes in terms of pricing too.


Some people say it's impossible to compete brick-and-mortar vs online, but there are ample existence proofs that that's just not true. I visited 5 different brick and mortar stores yesterday, all with quality products, in stock, competitively priced, and with knowledgeable and helpful staff. One place, as he was working up by bill, paused and offered up an alternative and much better way to accomplish what I was trying to do. He talked me out a sale, but you can be sure I'll keep going there for hydraulic parts and hoses. Fantastic store.


Some people have figured out how to flourish in retail. Most have not. But that have always been true....

As someone in brick and mortar, I think it's still quite possible to flourish and so easy for those not doing so to blame others. You do have to continue to evolve, but then Amazon is trying to figure out how to do brick and mortar.

I'm watching with interest the turnaround of JC Penney. I think people will be shocked at their success. Relieved of the tremendous debt burden and of the stores in long outdated centers and focused on Class A shopping centers, owned largely by their owners, some strategies that appear positive although still in early stages. Meanwhile Lambert's greed destroyed Sears.

Some retailers tried to ignore the internet. Others embraced it. It can erode your business or augment it.

Had Barnes and Noble been smart, there might be no Amazon. However, instead of promoting online sales ahead of Amazon, they said no one will ever buy books online, they want to browse and hold it in their hands. Online still has huge challenges, although not in books. But in other products with return rates of up to 33%, major issues. Look at Wayfair, which has been a disrupter in furniture, and always leads the way on Liquidations. Look at many Direct to Consumer retailers which have never made a profit. How many mattresses can you donate to charities because the customer didn't like them? Why are DTC mattress companies now opening retail stores?

 

[NEtrawler58]

I dislike them because they are predatory in their selling and pricing methods and give a misimpression to the market as to what is a reasonable price. This is because the margin on sales by them is not one that is profitable. Hence you see them raising the Prime charge once again and their major profits are from their operation of their cloud and other computer services. Meanwhile, they continue after more business segments with approaches that hurt a lot of businesses. Similarly, practices like free shipping are much like free lunch in that there is no such thing. Ultimately, the problem is that no one, Amazon included, can sell profitably at their prices and provide free shipping. It's also very difficult for their third party sellers.

If you are saying they are purposely selling at a price that cannot be supported in order to monopolize the market, then I agree that is wrong and eventually that will be dealt with. You say that they can't make a profit at their prices including shipping and yet they do. Amazon has been around for a while now, and still growing like crazy so it's hard to argue that their business model is not sustainable. Part of it may be due to economies of scale and efficiencies that they have achieved that others cannot. I don't complain about the Prime fee because I easily use that in shipping, but also in video streaming and ebooks. They also excel IMO in customer service and returns. I agree with supporting local businesses when I can, but often the choices may be Amazon, Walmart, Home Depot, or Lowes. In that case I have no loyalty and will buy the lowest price and best service. Many of us like to complain and hate these huge businesses and yet we created them. They exist only because we choose to buy from them.

 

[Slowmo]

Unfortunately I have to agree about WM. What they generally offer is convenience. They have many stores often located near boating centers. They're the 'only game in town' where we store our boat (Anacortes). WM will sometimes 'match' prices though. In our area if I have the Fisheries Supply price out of Seattle, the Anacortes WM will match if it is visible on the Fisheries website. Frankly WM needs to re-evaluate their business model. I fear at the rate they're going they'll cease to exist in a few years.

 

[Stabi]

In our area if I have the Fisheries Supply price out of Seattle, the Anacortes WM will match if it is visible on the Fisheries website.

Not sure about other locations in Washington, but in Anacortes, just talk to Carl at Sebo's and he will order from Fisheries, have it the next day in the afternoon, at the online Fisheries price, and the Skagit County Sales tax rate is less than the Seattle Fisheries tax rate at their store.

 

[AKDoug]

Actually my largest complaint about WM isn't price, it's that they have quit carrying the name brand products that they built their name on and replaced them with WM brand products. They are cheaper, but not the same quality as the name brand products they replaced.

Honestly I have the same complain with my grocery store, you find a superior quality product and then it's replaced by a store brand product of different quality. Name brand products ARE superior, the reputation of the manufacturer rides on their product.

 

[CharlieO.]

Update on my current WM online order

I ordered a Groco six port fuel valve at 7:42am Monday morning. Paid for overnight shipping. I thought by ordering first thing Monday morning, paying for overnight shipping, that I would get it by Wednesday Evening. Sounds reasonable?

It is Wednesday evening now and it still hasn't left the warehouse!!
2 1/2 days still sitting in warehouse?
I'm no genius but I don't think I'm getting overnight delivery.

I really needed that part quickly, scheduled for launch Friday. Going in no matter what.

 

[NEtrawler58]

Update on my current WM online order

I ordered a Groco six port fuel valve at 7:42am Monday morning. Paid for overnight shipping. I thought by ordering first thing Monday morning, paying for overnight shipping, that I would get it by Wednesday Evening. Sounds reasonable?

It is Wednesday evening now and it still hasn't left the warehouse!!
2 1/2 days still sitting in warehouse?
I'm no genius but I don't think I'm getting overnight delivery.

I really needed that part quickly, scheduled for launch Friday. Going in no matter what.

Defender is usually very good with shipping. Not sure if they have what you need, but most stuff ships same day as ordered.

 

[CharlieO.]

Defender is usually very good with shipping. Not sure if they have what you need, but most stuff ships same day as ordered.

They didn’t have it. Should of stuck with EBay. Marine supplier on Long Island was selling one.

I know I’m just small change to WM, the very few experiences I’ve had through them is not worth shopping there again.

Lesson learned.

 

[FWT]

What is now (rightfully) being said about Amazon and price competition used to be said of Walmart.

A friend inherited a small local chain of men's clothing stores, of maybe a dozen and a half stores. He shut it all down (decades ago) when Walmart carried his brands at a retail price lower than his wholesale cost. The story has a happy ending, since he totally changed course away from retailing and literally made a fortune in a very different field.

Sears was failing before Lambert. That one is like the old joke about poor investing. "How did you lose so much money?" "Slowly at first, then the rest all at once."

If some investment banker persuades Amazon to spin off AWS (cloud business) then the retail business is either cooked or destined to make a lot of changes in their margins. It appears unsustainable alone in its current form. My $0.02.

 

[HTurner]

Amazon retail does very well...


https://www.forbes.com/sites/palash...res-why-walmart-cant-keep-up/?sh=66db31d131ce

 

[BandB]

Amazon retail does very well...


https://www.forbes.com/sites/palash...res-why-walmart-cant-keep-up/?sh=66db31d131ce

No, Amazon retail sells a lot, has an increasing market share. Yes, they have 11-12% of all apparel sales. They also have over 30% returns on apparel. You sell at low margin, you pay for shipping, you pay for shipping back, you have to figure out what to do with what comes back. They are working very hard to figure out solutions including better matching of sizes, brick and mortar for returns and exchanges and other, but haven't solved it yet. They're bringing new retailers into their platform, but all are struggling.

 

[FWT]

Amazon retail does very well...


https://www.forbes.com/sites/palash...res-why-walmart-cant-keep-up/?sh=66db31d131ce

Not really, in retail.

I re-skimmed the 10K before posting to be sure of my memory.

 

[Northern Spy]

Defender was recently purchased by Fortnine, a newish Canadian motorcycle parts vendor.

I have dealt almost exclusively with Fortnine for the last 4-5 years with exceptional customer service for my motorcycle parts and gear.

I hope this bodes well for Defender.

I also hope this means I can get Defender service in Canada.

 

[Comodave]

Defender was recently purchased by Fortnine, a newish Canadian motorcycle parts vendor.

I have dealt almost exclusively with Fortnine for the last 4-5 years with exceptional customer service for my motorcycle parts and gear.

I hope this bodes well for Defender.

I also hope this means I can get Defender service in Canada.

I hope so too.

 

[rslifkin]

Defender was recently purchased by Fortnine, a newish Canadian motorcycle parts vendor.

I have dealt almost exclusively with Fortnine for the last 4-5 years with exceptional customer service for my motorcycle parts and gear.

I hope this bodes well for Defender.

I also hope this means I can get Defender service in Canada.

I've heard a few good things about Fortnine. My hope is that they wanted to get into the marine supply business and decided the best way was to buy a company that's already good at it. But time will tell.

 

[Hippocampus]

In response to the limitations of days at sea and other restrictions on commercial fishing the 3 local chandleries closed. The forth became a glorified bait shop. They were on the waterfront. The waterfront has changed and is now condos and tourist traps. No longer the working waterfront it once was. There’s a WM but it’s 3m from the waterfront so you need a car to get there. Same has occurred throughout my region. Used to be while cruising if you needed something you could get off the boat and walk to a chandlery to get it. Those days are gone with marina stores only carrying commonly used items and selling them at very high prices. Now you rent a ride and go for long drives and perhaps find what you need.
In the past I was a member of the local yacht club. It arranged to be a buying agent for all the members. It often could buy from the manufacturer bypassing wholesale and rental vendors. At least for many things they could be bought wholesale if not from the maker. That feature folded. Too much work and club didn’t want to hire someone to do it.
Still, given how costs have accelerated this maybe a tactic to control costs to the end user. A group would bring a “book of business “ to to a intermediary (could even be a Amazon type). In exchange the intermediary commits to a fixed profit margin.
Wonder if this site or MTOA or other could serve as the organizing focus.

 

[Portage_Bay]

In the old days there was 4 family held chandleries in my town. I’d take the broken part to them one by one until I found a perfect match. I’d also chat them up about any project I was contemplating. They were knowledgeable and walk me through it. Would also collect what I would need to do it and tell me which supplier had the best stuff.
Now I walk into a WM and need to teach them .

Not long ago I walked into a WM to ask about a hard floor for a RIB. The employee, I guess we call them associates now, asked me "What's a RIB?" I told him to turn around. Those boats leaning against the wall behind you, the ones with inflatable tubes. Those are RIBs.

Long gone are the days when retail outlets serving most any need are staffed by knowledable staff. Just guessing it's all about maximizing corporate profits with one of the key methods paying low wages. Also competition with online discounters.

 

[hollywood8118]

Not long ago I walked into a WM to ask about a hard floor for a RIB. The employee, I guess we call them associates now, asked me "What's a RIB?" I told him to turn around. Those boats leaning against the wall behind you, the ones with inflatable tubes. Those are RIBs.

Long gone are the days when retail outlets serving most any need are staffed by knowledable staff. Just guessing it's all about maximizing corporate profits with one of the key methods paying low wages. Also competition with online discounters.

It used to be that most coastal west marine stores had many people working there that were cruisers outfitting boats and working at west to get the employee discount. Many were very knowledgeable and had been lifetime boaters. I seemed under Randy Repass this was fostered and encouraged. It was like the old time hardware stores vs home depot.

I do sometimes use West for the convenience but do agree that have shifted to more of a clothing store than a chandlery. It used to be an exciting event when they would open a new store as they seemed to stock unusual items in those as a trial basis prior to distributing to the chain.
HOLLYWOOD