Cruising realities

[ranger58sb]

I think it's worth highlighting this into it's own thread, especially for potential newbies who might think boating is always a piece o' cake:

Originally Posted by PierreR

Pete, I would like to frame this for you. This is bottom line and the more remote you travel, the better you need to be and the more stuff you need to carry.

If you either don't enjoy working on boats or do not posses the ability, long distance cruising will be scary, frustrating, and your destinations severely limited. This goes way beyond single/twin debate. This is about keeping refrigeration cold, pumps pumping, watermakers making water, generator generating, inverters inverting, solar charging, etc. It's an endless list of to-dos, some more serious than others. I don't know why this topic is so rarely discussed on this forum (and other forums). But the amount of mechanical work required to keep a boat moving is astonishing.

https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/...ml#post1204434

Starting in the "shopping" phase, a clear assessment of boating intentions and personal capabilities (various skills, but also including patience, fault tolerance, etc.) relative to specific boats can maybe head off issues altogether, or at least set expectations in line with potential reality...

Example: I like electronic common-rail diesels, and that fits with our boating use. OTOH, if we were to plan to be out in the middle of zip-all-nowhere with no access to parts or our go-to diesel techs... I'd more likely want a simple diesel I can repair with some tubing and maybe a rubber band or two. IOW, without regard to my conceptual preference.

And all those skills Peter cites sometimes aren't worth squat without parts... and parts stores seldom appear right in the middle of the Pacific Ocean (for example). Finding (the correct) parts is sometimes difficult enough with full-up Internet, service manuals, etc... but actually getting your hands on said parts doesn't necessarily come easily -- at least probably until next port of call -- so dealing with the situation in the meantime might be an exercise is patience and/or frustration at best. (Of course carrying spares can speak to some of that. A whole boat's worth of spares gets a bit crowded though...)

Coastal cruising? Drop ship to the next port of call. Way out there in the water someplace... ummm... stand by...

I suspect many shoppers are able to visualize the good bits -- relaxing with sundowners every evening on a boat that actually works -- without knowing or expecting all the background noise that can make that happen. Relaxing over sundowners once a week might be more like the norm.

I'm not meaning to discourage; only to suggest cruising dreams and related boat shopping may be best if done with eyes wide open... and with some honest assessment of personal capabilities and related budget issues... like what it costs to pay people to do all that stuff you don't know how to do... or don't care to do yourself.

-Chris

[twistedtree]

Glad you broke this out into its own thread. I agree that this is one of the big reasons why larger boats often don't stay sold for very long.


Probably the most frequently offered advice is to "hire a qualified mechanic/electrician" to help solve a problem. Unless you already know such a person, and have a working relationship with them, this simple advice is anywhere from very difficult, to impossible to do. And if you are in a more remote area, and I don't mean in the middle of the ocean, I mean some remote coastal area, you might as well be telling someone to flap their wings and fly to the moon. Finding someone is challenge number one. Then it can take days or weeks to get them to the boat. And only once they are there, or have "finished" the job, so you find out exactly how qualified they are/were. Then there is getting parts.


I can see how this could very quickly frustrate many people, and take all the fun out of cruising. I know it would for me. If I wasn't interested, willing, and able to DIY, I'm pretty certain I wold have given up boating years a go. Actually, I probably never would have progressed beyond day boating and ever gotten into cruising.


As mentioned, carrying spares is important. You certainly want all of the consumable items on board and ready to go. Picking other spares to keep on board is it's own challenge. You can't carry them all, so you need to pick, and of course the parts you have are the ones that won't be needed, and the ones you need are the ones you won't have. We all know that rule of life.


But in addition to parts, don't forget tools. You can do a lot with a basic set of tools, but for more complicated repairs this can quickly become just as important as having parts.

[mvweebles]

This is a good topic. Forums like TF and it's sail counterparts place so much emphasis on the boat and boat handling skills. But I think the core challenges of distance cruising could use additional discussion.

First, I've argued for a while there are a few graduations. Not sure what to call general cruising where you have fairly regular access to facilities - PNW, The Loop, SF Delta, etc. Topic of ocean crossing passagemaking comes up a fair amount. But I think there's a seam between the two - more or less what I'm doing now that I think is described by "Coastal Passagemaking." Unlike ocean passagemaking, you can pick your weather. But access to parts and support is severely limited.

I think TT sums it up well: cruising involves a fair amount of DIY work. With enough space on your credit card, you can avoid much of the DIY work if you stay in developed areas. But as you move away from developed areas, the need to get your hands dirty increases quickly - credit card is useless. I confess, I worry a bit about having both skills and spares. But there is a certain hubris that is hardwired into the male human - will figure it out when the time comes. I hope.

Peter

[socalrider]

Thanks Peter for your candor on this topic!

First, this is a good argument for simplicity. I think of your W36 as a simple boat, but obviously even so there are a lot of systems.

Second, it's a good argument for DIY - if you hire someone to install your electronics or water maker it'll take you that much longer to get up to speed.

Third, I like your point about mindset. It's so easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment, frustrated that something you KNOW should work just does NOT. It's hard to take that deep breath, make cup of tea, and start again from the beginning, slowly. In my experience, those moments of frustration are where one tends to make a bad situation worse. Not a big deal when you're close to help, but can cause real problems when you are not.

Fourth, I wonder if you'll find that things settle down in the next 6 months? You're really still in the shakedown phase. Obviously things will keep breaking, but I suspect that you will soon spend less time in the psychologically damaging "WTF is going on" stage and more in that "OK what's the best way to fix this" stage. The engine shutdown is a good example - now you know one more thing to check if it happens again, and how to resolve.

[ksanders]

Having spent my life cruising in remote areas of Alaska, and then the last two years cruising the pacific and the Sea of Cortez in Mexico gives a bit of insite.

You do not need the newest exploration yacht to be successful.

But...

you need a boat that is set up similar to that big new exploration yacht, and or you need spares and knowledge to solve the day to day problems that will ruin your life.

Your production boat, like my Bayliner 4788 did not come from the factory with any thought to redundancy or maintainability other than possibly twin engines.
The exploration yacht did.

You need to look at EVERY system on your boat and think ...What if this thing failed today. how would it affect my life, and how ling would it take me to realistically fix it, in the location i plan to cruise.

Then you need to develop the skills, and or develop the network of friends you can call on to help solve problems.

Example... The other day I needed to move fuel between tanks and that very day my handy dandy fuel transfer pump failed, and my boat is not set up to do it with the engines.

So... I rooted around the spares locker, and found a Jabsco Water Puppy utility pump, and i rooted around and found a Nitril impeller. 30 minutes later I was moving the fuel.

Imagine if I didn't have that spare. How long to solve the problem then.

Imagine your head stops flushing today. Ot your macerator pump dies. Can you solve the problem???

Start thinking like a cruiser before you become one, and you will be happier.

[Turtle Blues]

Cruising is extended travel between points of repair.

As age redirects my fish chasing from pelagics to perch and cruising from blue water to coastal the music playing in the background is "These are the good old days".
The global delivery of anything (if it's available) has never been faster.

I have dropped a mechanic at the airport and followed up with FedEx for tools and parts. The greatest part of the equation always has been a qualified competent technician.
For LR cruisers that has to be you. Until you get to the point of needing machining or internal electronics repair no one is going to understand the specifics of your systems better than you do. Enjoying the down time is a big part of the journey.

[High Wire]

Every season is a long list of new items to fix. Just a few examples:
-Right at the very end of last season the Raymarine auto pilot started throwing a “Current Limit” error that throws the AP into standby. I understand what that means but it’s popping up while it’s already in standby. The AP is several generations out of production. No one will even look at it. So do you trash the whole system and start new for several boat units or do without? Third option, find a working takeout used computer module on eBay and install that? I chose the third and it’s working great.
- I came to Florida this fall to get the boat ready as usual. The pulpit looked somewhat different. My Rocna Vulcan anchor was stolen! Great where do you find a #55 anchor laying around? New is about $1200 or find a used Delta for $200 on Craigslist?
- Boats 5# propane tank leaking from the valve. Need a new one of those. Two weeks waiting time or new with 2 day delivery from Amazon. That’s an easy choice.
My advice is to keep a good log book and make lots of lists to work from.

[SteveK]

I wish there were cross over fuel fills as it is an extra job to drag the hose to the other side where you cannot see the pump. On a trip I directed return fuel to the tank that needed some fuel and found I could tranfer 1/8 of a tank per hour. On a two hour run tanks were equal.

Owner/operators need to be able to think outside the box when solving problems

[PierreR]

I highlighted that passage as a reminder to myself how fortunate that I am. I often times simply brush over this stuff as if it is nothing special at all. I don't value my own skills enough.
I can literally fix or work around anything on the boat and anything else around me. I can fabricate parts with hand tools. I therefore have no concept of what things cost, or timescales needed, to have things repaired by someone else.
I am also highly suspicious of "Specialists". A specialist to me is someone who know their particular trade but is blissfully ignorant of other designs and systems on a boat and will compromise those systems. They will drill holes through coring and install stuff through limber holes, virtually destroying the integrity of your boat. A big plus for the boat I now own is that it was virtually not updated much since new and therefore cheap and not bastardized by specialists.
I would be comfortable doing the North West Passage. My wife on the other hand has never dealt with specialists, knows all my faults and is not comfortable with remote traveling. She is always asking if a specialist would not be better. Somehow the world will come to an end past the end of the power cord. The compromise as Pete says is extensive coastal cruising.

I have witnessed enough people on these forums that will sit weeks waiting for a part or a fix that would not keep me in port more than a few hours. That kind of boat ownership has got to get old really fast. How do people do it.
I cannot conceive cruising on a boat without substantial mechanical skills. There would be a great deal of stress on me trying figure out how to hire something done even in a busy port area. It boggles my mind.
For me, food and dockage are the big costs. Maintenance is down around the cost of fuel.

[FWT]

Then there is age and time.

Which is an issue that spans many pastimes. In golf there is a saying: by the time you can afford to lose a golf ball you are too old to hit it far enough to lose it.

By the time you can afford a serious passage making boat, load it with spares, develop the skills to both cruise and repair it, you may be too old to do it. Exceptions exist of course, from financial independence earlier than average, a lifetime building skills, etc. Having everything line up isn't the 1%, its probably more like the 0.1%. Kudos to those with a legitimate shot at it.

[GoneFarrell]

"Cruising is extended travel between points of repair."
Turtle, well said!

The classifications outward just add zeros to the distances and difficulties involved.

My gal has made it to Escondido in Baja. I winter down here in Mulege. Tomorrow I take a major pile of first world stuff to the boat: new tablet (navoinics won't update on the old one), a whole bunch of SST goodies, new dock lines and snubbers (old ones were destroyed by hurricane in La Paz) and various other small items impossible to source in Baja.

We can fix almost anything, and have McGyver stories like the best of you here. Is a huge piece of freedom and choice to be able to do this and support a lifestyle we only dreamed 5 years ago.

[PierreR]

Originally Posted by FWT

Kudos to those with a legitimate shot at it.

I have the skills, the body, the time and the money to do it. Ohhh wait, I am married to chicken little. Ahhh, nice idea.
For adventure I am kinda looking the other direction. Smaller the boat the bigger the adventure without actually crossing an ocean. Looking a a second loop boat. Build a 20' cedar strip electric kayak than can do 6-7 knots for as long as my body will take it all day, every day. LWL 19', 375 lbs total cruise weight, 300 watts max drive. 12V 100 amp hr battery, 400watts solar. Spot for the 4 pound poodle. Just have to figure out how to kayak roll with the dog.

[FWT]

Originally Posted by PierreR

I have the skills, the body, the time and the money to do it. Ohhh wait, I am married to chicken little. Ahhh, nice idea.

The second most popular marriage joke (after, if Moma ain't happy ain't nobody gonna be happy) is: no man is a hero to his wife.

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
I just skimmed the answer but if it hasn't been mentioned...finding QUALIFIED mechanics even here in the cruising capital of the world (Fort Lauderdale) has been nigh on IMPOSSIBLE with very few notable exceptions.


I suspect the majority of "experts" I've hired and been charged through the nose for are barely qualified to be dishwashers in the local beanery or parking lot attendants.



Apologies to dishwashers and parking lot attendents...

[Ka_sea_ta]

Over the course of several decades of cruising I have developed the skills to fix or at least Macgyver most of systems on our boat, I have also collected a fairly complete set of tools and spares to support most of the systems. What has become the most limiting factor to repair the various systems is my ability to access what ever is in need of maintenance. It seems that in order to reach a particular system, part, connector, bolt, or whatever. My arms aren't long enough, I don't bend that way, I can't see it or I just don't fit in the allotted space. Even with a stand up mechanical space, there is a good chance what ever needs attention will not be easily accessible.

[twistedtree]

Originally Posted by ksanders

Having spent my life cruising in remote areas of Alaska, and then the last two years cruising the pacific and the Sea of Cortez in Mexico gives a bit of insite.

You do not need the newest exploration yacht to be successful.

But...

you need a boat that is set up similar to that big new exploration yacht, and or you need spares and knowledge to solve the day to day problems that will ruin your life.

Your production boat, like my Bayliner 4788 did not come from the factory with any thought to redundancy or maintainability other than possibly twin engines.
The exploration yacht did.

You need to look at EVERY system on your boat and think ...What if this thing failed today. how would it affect my life, and how ling would it take me to realistically fix it, in the location i plan to cruise.

Then you need to develop the skills, and or develop the network of friends you can call on to help solve problems.

Example... The other day I needed to move fuel between tanks and that very day my handy dandy fuel transfer pump failed, and my boat is not set up to do it with the engines.

So... I rooted around the spares locker, and found a Jabsco Water Puppy utility pump, and i rooted around and found a Nitril impeller. 30 minutes later I was moving the fuel.

Imagine if I didn't have that spare. How long to solve the problem then.

Imagine your head stops flushing today. Ot your macerator pump dies. Can you solve the problem???

Start thinking like a cruiser before you become one, and you will be happier.

I totally agree, and think going through the what-if process is a really good way to figure out what YOU need for YOUR type of cruising.


What happens if you watermaker fails? Some people won't care because they usually fill up at docks along the way. Others will adjust behavior a bit, fill more from docks, and watch tank levels a bit more closely. Others might find themselves without fresh water unless they get it fixed, or drastically alter their cruising plans.


These questions are important for any type of cruising, not just for ocean crossing. For the type of cruising I do which is not ocean crossing, but it remote coastal cruising, redundancy is very important to me. It's what allows me to keep on cruising without disruption, or with minimal disruption. "Redundancy" sometimes means having a backup installed and ready to turn on. Other times it means having a second device that can be swapped in, or otherwise put into service with a little effort. And other times it means having the parts, skill, and tools to repair. Different types of failures will have a different scope of impact, and require more immediate repair/recovery, where other things can be resolved more leisurely. What I don't want is to get stuck somewhere for days or weeks waiting for parts or people to get me going again. But that's just me.

[ksanders]

Originally Posted by twistedtree

I totally agree, and think going through the what-if process is a really good way to figure out what YOU need for YOUR type of cruising.


What happens if you watermaker fails? Some people won't care because they usually fill up at docks along the way. Others will adjust behavior a bit, fill more from docks, and watch tank levels a bit more closely. Others might find themselves without fresh water unless they get it fixed, or drastically alter their cruising plans.


These questions are important for any type of cruising, not just for ocean crossing. For the type of cruising I do which is not ocean crossing, but it remote coastal cruising, redundancy is very important to me. It's what allows me to keep on cruising without disruption, or with minimal disruption. "Redundancy" sometimes means having a backup installed and ready to turn on. Other times it means having a second device that can be swapped in, or otherwise put into service with a little effort. And other times it means having the parts, skill, and tools to repair. Different types of failures will have a different scope of impact, and require more immediate repair/recovery, where other things can be resolved more leisurely. What I don't want is to get stuck somewhere for days or weeks waiting for parts or people to get me going again. But that's just me.

Exactly!

Some boats might have for example redundant potable water pumps pre-installed and a switch to choose which one is active.

Other boats (mine included) have a spare exact model number spare, ready to swap in.

Buit... the important part is to have thought in advance how to deal the failure, and have a plan in place to solve the problem.

[sunchaser]

It is wonderful to know how to fix things and having spare parts. But far more important has proven to be diligent PM and changing out critical components before failure.

As example exhaust elbows, hoses, starters, raw water pumps, heat exchangers, alternators and can all be replaced before failure. Running to failure is not a good idea. We kept our boat for 17 years in Sidney BC. Just luck I guess but we never had an issue finding qualified tradesmen.

Of course a great ER and good access to all systems pays great dividends. Thank you Art DeFever.

[rgano]

Extended travel between repairs - excellent.

Those of you who are unfamiliar with warship histories might be interested in how true that is from the age of sail right up to today for all navies. The US Navy in particular can stay at sea for extended periods of time thanks to its marvelous "fleet train" consisting of the vessels with supply the beans, bullets, and oil, but normally the warships are going to need some attention of one sight or another after a long period at sea, and if the equipment manages to hold up, the Sailors are going to need a break from the rigorous watch schedule, especially if in waters like the eastern Mediterranean, Red Sea, and Persian Gulf where the threat level these days is pretty high.
In World War II, the USN took over atolls here and there in the Pacific and flooded them with repair ships, dry docks, Coca Cola barges, you name it, they had it and could fix ever extensive battle damage to the point the ship could be sent back to CONUS for rebuilding as required.

If some complex electronic system goes down, unlike the civilian world, we would sometimes fly a technician over from the nearest aircraft carrier for assistance or even bring in a civilian tech from a major defense contractor to correct the problem, sometimes remaining aboard right into the combat zone to see how the fix worked. Now that would be a great business model for somebody to come up with a truly mobile yacht service. The east coast would be an ideal place to have a few young guys who can sort out electrical and diesel problems so the affected boater would not have to go through the frustrations of trying to find local help.

In my own experience, we were seldom at sea in destroyers longer than a few weeks, although one I was in spent 105 days underway and was still combat effective at the end of that time. One time a destroyer I was in of Vietnam developed a crack in a bulkhead between a freshwater tank and a NSFO (black oil) tank. We all noticed when the water began to taste and smell bad. We did not have a lot of water tanks, and this one was the biggest, but did we run to port in Subic Bay, Philippines to get it fixed? Not on your tintype, bud! The cooks just upped the percentage of kool-aid powder in the bug "juice machines," and we carried on.

[Turtle Blues]

post #19
East coasters cruisers should make the USS North Carolina a must see.
The machine shop is incredible. An experienced MM (if they still exist) could step up and start fabricating almost anything required. NO CNC panels, no CAD stations, micrometers and lathes.

My dinosaur rant is that our AFs need to maintain this capability. It provides training that lasts a lifetime and subsequently a trained workforce. Repair should not be just a checkbook exercise.