Cetol over CPES ?

[Aquabelle]

Anyone have experience of putting CETOL over CPES (ie a single-part oil/varnish over a 2-part epoxy sealer) ? I understand from other posts that varnish, Bristol etc go well over CPES, just wondering about CETOL.

thanks for any comments

 

[Capn Chuck]

We have done this on several occasions and it has worked just fine. Chuck

 

[Nomad Willy]

As I recall CPES is an epoxy sealer. If so that would prevent the CETOL oil based wood finish from penetrating the wood. But as long as the CPES does a complete job of sealing and has excellent adhesion to the wood (not likely) the CETOL would perform very well. I would think several to many coats of oil, turpentine and perhaps Kerosene would be a much better base for an oil based finish. Kerosene is said to be the best wood penetrant known. According to Pete Culler .... a very well known and respected name in wood finishing and boat building. He had a habit of liberally coating a new boat w kerosene (especially the inside) when the boat was bare wood. He says wood penetrants and primers penetrate hardly at all. Reading Culler has convinced me to go back to a high quality varnish preceded by many coats of oil, turp and kerosene. I already have such a base on my cap rail.

 

[Marin]

CPES does indeed seal the wood so nothing (water, paint, finish, oil, etc) will penetrate into the wood anymore. We won't use CETOL on a boat but as long as it doesn't depend on penetration into the wood to work properly it should be fine to put over CPES.

When we coat raw wood with CPES prior to the application of a bright finish (or paint primer) we put the first coat of finish on while the last coat of CPES is still a bit tacky. This helps adhere the first finish coat even better.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Marin,
That sounds like a good trick or good advice for non-oil based finishes but for oil based stuff I'd look for oil based primers, sealers and undercoats. But perhaps CPES and other such stuff will actually seal teak (doubtfull) and if it does then the question of "is that good" needs to be answered. Capn Chuck has done it sucessfully but under what conditions. Perhaps somebody will chip in w more experience mixing old technology w new. Strip planked wood boats w FG and epoxy do very well at tech mixing. I still suspect it's not ideal but at least one of us has tried it sucessfully. I'd use dino oils ect but I'm programed that way w some bias I'm sure.

 

[Marin]

I learned what I know about CPES from Bob Lowe, a former shipwright and owner of Oak Harbor Boatworks on Whidbey Island and one of the original founders of the Grand Banks owners association. It is he who advocates the notion of applying the first coat of finish while the last coat of CPES i still tacky.

A lot of the GB owners on the forum use CPES on raw wood followed by oil-based finishes like varnish, and using the same first coat over last tacky coat of CPES technique. From what they say, it works extremely well.

While we have been using Bristol as an exterior bright finish for many years now, we have applied varnish over CPES and it's worked fine. Of course you can't go the other way--- the only way CPES is effective is if it's put on raw wood prior to any other finish.

Bristol, by the way, can never be put over any sort of oil finish. It can be put over completely cured and aged varnish but only if the varnish surface is in excellent condition. But wood that's had any oil on it at all must have all traces of the oil removed before Bristol can be applied to it.

 

[BruceK]

This discussion largely comes from paint manufacturers instructions not to put single pack paint over 2 pack,and vice versa. I`ve put single pack undercoat followed by gloss over Everdure (= CPES) on teak,followed by 2 pack bog filler, without a problem.Maybe the filler prevented incompatibility.
I once spent days priming, undercoating,multiple gloss coating,with oil based paints, on teak slats on a new garden seat. A work of art when finished but in months it all lifted off,I assume due to the teak exuding oil. Looks quite rustic in the garden. BruceK

 

[Giggitoni]

I learned what I know about CPES from Bob Lowe, a former shipwright and owner of Oak Harbor Boatworks on Whidbey Island and one of the original founders of the Grand Banks owners association. It is he who advocates the notion of applying the first coat of finish while the last coat of CPES i still tacky.

A lot of the GB owners on the forum use CPES on raw wood followed by oil-based finishes like varnish, and using the same first coat over last tacky coat of CPES technique. From what they say, it works extremely well.

I have used this technique after reading Bob Lowe's instructions on the GB Forum. It worked as expected. I guess my experience could be considered anecdotal by some. But it seems that the varnish lasts a bit longer between coats over time without any "lifting". I have about 11 or 12 coats over the CPES-coated piece by now. It looks great.

 

[Aquabelle]

Folks: have just found a post on the Seattle-based 'Rot Doctor' website (PNW distributor of CPES) that says CPES can NOT be used under CETOL ! Have sent him a msg asking for specifics so will post his relpy FYI

 

[Nomad Willy]

I suspected that but am anxious to find out why. Seems to me the combo should be fine if the CPES seals 100%. But then there's Murphy.

 

[OFB]

I do not use cpes so this could be of no value. I use the west system epoxy today. But have been using epoxy to cover my old wood boats for years. Epoxy even with a UV protector in it will break down when exposed to sun over time. With out some UV protection it can be gone in days.

I have always covered the epoxy with oil based paint for UV protection.I am changing the paints this year as oil based marine paints are on there way out. For bright work I always covered the epoxy with spar varnish oil based. The old fishboat today has about 1/2 the bright work covered that way with the other 1/2 being just spar varnish thats now peeling off. Oil based marine spar varnish is no longer available here.

I have to change my paints.

So I am now covering all the bright work with epoxy and then with a clear coat ( like your car ) for UV protection.

Any way I have had good success with varnish over epoxy for UV protection and life. The epoxy can yellow over time but that kinda matches the color of cetol any way < grin >

 

[Aquabelle]

Here's the reply from Rot Doctor (I had also asked about wet-on-tacky approach):

CPES is generally not used under Cetol because Cetol wants to get it's own grip on the wood. Some have tried, but we do not recommend it. As for the wet-on-tacky with Cetol, I will leave that question to the directions on the Cetol can. We are not experienced users of Cetol.

 

[Marin]

...because Cetol wants to get it's own grip on the wood.

Perhaps this is one reason behind Cetol's reputation for better longevity than varnish.

 

[Nomad Willy]

I wonder if there's something really special about it or if it's just plain old plain old w some or much clever hype. I'd like to know. They are crazy about the stuff in SE. Got about 5 kinds of it in the hardware store. I've never used it. I used some other product and found it rather same old same old. Most of you know I'm fond of oil based stuff so "same old" is not a put down. Miracles don't exist but some people think new stuff is great because it's new. Frequently new stuff is better but usually in some specific way and has higher cost or application difficulties some needing special primers ect. Next year I'm going to finish my cap rail w spar varnish ... Probably McClosly's. I've got a great base w lots of oil over time.
OFB,
What makes you think oil based products are on the way out? I see absolutely no sign of it.

 

[Peter B]

I can easily understand why Cetol would not be good over any epoxy sealer. I use it on what bare teak I still have, (rails, steps to and flybridge cupboard doors, and cockpit door), and what I like about it is the way it soaks in to the wood to some extent, but also imparts a satiny type of low gloss which lasts much longer than pure teak oil, but also does not build up like varnish, so only needs a wipe down or light sanding before re-coating. If one sealed the teak then that could not happen, and it would take longer to dry, and would build up on the surface, detracting, at least to some extent, from its main feature. That is, the lazy man's varnish, which never needs sanding right back. I have no problem in admitting to being lazy in this specific situation, as there is always so much other stuff to do, right...?

 

[GypsyGene]

I am in the process of re-finishing my teak rails. I made the mistake of applying Cetol over Interlux 1026 (polyurethane) base. The result was a sticky mess.
Now, I have removed everything back to bare wood and am looking for a system that will give a gloss finish and will stand up to the Southern California sun. Cetol makes base products, but they all have some pigment or iron oxide coloring; not acceptable. My red teak is beautiful without adding color.
Not trying to hi-jack this great thread, but the discussion is so close to my issue, I thought it would be a good place to ask my question: what is the very best system for teak that is exposed to over 300 days a year of bright sunlight?
Thanks all,
GypsyGene

 

[Keith]

Signature Finish and Honey Teak Products - Home

I've been using Signature Finish's Honey Teak for about 18 years and love it! It won the highest mark back when Powerboat Reports was still in business, but I haven't seen their sister publication, Sailboat Reports since. It's a catalyzed polyurethane...a tinted base coat and a clear top coat. The top coat is sacrificial. While I try to put one coat of clear on /year, sometimes I go two and it's fine. Hard as nails and makes a very nice finish.

 

[Marin]

We have been using Bristol for the last twelve years or so and have found it to be much more resistant to UV than varnish. It's expensive and requires an application technique that is rather different than other finishes, but the end result is well worth it in our opinions. Lately we have adopted the technique when finishing raw wood of first sealing the wood with CPES and then applying the first coat of finish while the last coat of CPES is still tacky.

 

[Larry M]

...what is the very best system for teak that is exposed to over 300 days a year of bright sunlight?
Thanks all,
GypsyGene

The September 11 issue (Vol 39 No 9) of Practical Sailor did a comprehensive 2 year test of wood finishes. They tested varnish alternatives, one-part varnishes and two-part systems. Here some of the results:

Cetol Marine Gloss and Cetol Light with Marine Gloss tested as the top 2 of 9 tested after 1.5 years of the varnish alternatives.

One-part varnishes: Detco Crystal, Le Tonkinois Vernis and Pettit Z-Spar Captain's Ultra Clear 2067 were the top 3 of the 19 tested after 2 years.

Two-part systems: Interlux Perfection and Nautiking NautiThane were the top 2 of 6 tested and HMG Acrythane XSC was recommended after 1.5 years.

The article conclusion pretty much sums it up: "After 2 years of testing, we've come to accept that perhaps there's no Holy Grail of exterior wood finishes. It would appear, unfortunately, that we can't have it all: easy to apply, easy to maintain, long lasing protection and a budget-friendly price tag. The reality is that, like much of life, wood protection is all about compromise and balancing your needs with your wants."

 

[Capn Chuck]

I am in the process of re-finishing my teak rails. I made the mistake of applying Cetol over Interlux 1026 (polyurethane) base. The result was a sticky mess.
Now, I have removed everything back to bare wood and am looking for a system that will give a gloss finish and will stand up to the Southern California sun. Cetol makes base products, but they all have some pigment or iron oxide coloring; not acceptable. My red teak is beautiful without adding color.
Not trying to hi-jack this great thread, but the discussion is so close to my issue, I thought it would be a good place to ask my question: what is the very best system for teak that is exposed to over 300 days a year of bright sunlight?
Thanks all,
GypsyGene

We have had two boats with extensive exterior teak. We have also used EVERY teak finish over the years. We have used Cetol exclusively for many years and there is no other teak finish we would even consider going back to. If you use the Natural base, not the Light, and gloss on top, I doubt that the finished results would be much different than any other finish except the ease in maintaining. I don't know how much more your southern California sun, lived there for 14 years, will affect the wood more than the sun in south Florida and our years in the Caribbean, but nothing has held up as well as Cetol on our boats in those conditions. Chuck

 

[Nomad Willy]

This is like anchors. Everyone thinks their stuff is better than the other guys. And I'm not thinking of anyone's comments specifically. Nor am I void of that attitude myself.
I've been using my own oil mix and was acceptable in Alaska but I plan to change back to an oil based top of the line Varnish next spring. Hot sun on my oil mix makes for a fairly sticky surface in the hot (80 degree) weather. For storage we just applied a thick coat on the cap rails. I've used kerosene to drive the oil deep into the wood. Pete Culler recommends this. Over 3 or 4 years I've built up an excellent oil base for that type of finish. My anchor winch/fwd cleat base (plywood) was heavily oiled planning on just doing that alone then got the idea to see how varnish held up on a heavy oil base. It's worked through an Alaska winter better than anything else. Nothing else has lasted the AK winter.
I'm not against high tech stuff (tried quite a few) but I've had fairly good results w good quality varnish and for now I'm going to stay with it. Started trying other stuff because of the shoe scuff marks on the cap rail where we board. I think we'll just deal w the scuff marks. Perhaps there's an easy touch up method.

 

[Blue Heron]

Chuck,
How many coats do you use for each? I just put 3 base and 2 gloss. Looks fantastic.