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Old 03-28-2017, 04:35 PM   #101
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Id love to get my hands on 20l of the black sparkly tacky anti-fouling the Australian Navy used 40 years ago it was good for 7 years in salt water I swapped a 6 pack of ice cold beer for 2 x 20l tubs at the then local Navel depot on a hot summer day all I remember is how heavy the tubs were
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:50 PM   #102
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I have to wonder: If copper bottom paint is toxic to marine life (yes, it probably is to some extent), why have humans been using copper pipe in their homes to supply drinking, cooking and bathing water for so many years without problems?


I believe it's possible to rig tests to come to any desired conclusion.
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:01 PM   #103
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Mr. WK. Copper pipes are solid metal whereas the copper used in anti-fouling paint is either a fine powder or a copper compound. The surface area of a powder is orders of magnitude greater than a solid so it reacts/leaches on a much greater scale.

Perhaps, in the future, copper WILL be found to have caused problems much like the findings on lead but so far, so good.

Indeed, tests can be rigged but I think in this case you're grasping at straws...

Toxic effects of a wide variety of metals have been proven BUT, many of the metals that have been proven toxic in larger amounts are trace elements essential for life. Copper is one such essential trace element.
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Old 03-28-2017, 05:04 PM   #104
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What he said!!
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Old 03-28-2017, 07:55 PM   #105
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So if you don't see dead fish floating around, high levels of copper must not be harmful?

Holy jeezus. Friggin' ponderous.

From the California Department of Pesticide Regulation:

"Although copper is an effective biocide, it may also affect non-target organisms and pose environmental concerns. Copper may be washed into the aquatic environment from agricultural and urban application sites and may enter water when used as a biocide in antifouling paint formulations. The latter use may constitute a major copper pollution contributor to California marinas, because antifouling paints continually leach from and are regularly scrubbed off boat hulls, thus releasing copper-containing paint residues into the surrounding water and sediment. The resulting copper concentrations may potentially be high enough to threaten aquatic organisms."

"Aquatic species differ greatly in their sensitivity to copper. Some animals, like mollusks, can tolerate high concentrations of the metal, while others are adversely affected by very low concentrations of copper. Emerging evidence shows that very low, sublethal copper levels can adversely affect the sense of smell and behavior of fish. The developmental stage of the fish at the time of copper exposure is critical to the reversibility of sensory function effects. The fish olfactory system may be the most sensitive structure to copper pollution."
Holly Crap Rodger Rabbit... I had to go look that one up! "Fish olfactory system." Yup - there's a bunch of literature on that. Live and learn!
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Old 03-28-2017, 08:39 PM   #106
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Copper still a hard swallow! Sure, ablative is soft of self cleaning but after a season's end, most bottom paint I see is still stuck to boat bottoms. Add the dilution factors and the ppm amounts again shrink.
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Old 03-29-2017, 06:56 AM   #107
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.................. There is no shortage of environmentalists ready to carry a flag and beat a drum under the presumption saving something, anything. And risk/benefit trade offs? Don't be an idiot, just bang the drum! OH--- AND BE SURE TO CALL THE MEDIA SO EVERYTHING IS TELEVISED!!!
I was talking to a lady the other day and she said that we needed to stop burning fossil fuel and switch to electricity so we could cut out pollution. She said electricity doesn't pollute.

I asked her if she knew where electricity came from and she said "rivers".
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:16 AM   #108
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Let's keep this thread off the politics of pollution etc.
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:05 AM   #109
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Copper - Treatment, Use, Problems | Reef Sanctuary

Copper also cures fish of diseases. What is true in California is they always trumpet the negative, everything causes cancer and is harmful.
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Old 03-29-2017, 09:41 AM   #110
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"The Naval vessels upstream from me are contaminating my bottom paint!"

"Tributyl tin isn't metal!"

"The biocide we use on our boat bottoms to kill marine organisms isn't toxic to marine organisms!"

"Copper is actually good for fish!"



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Old 03-29-2017, 10:04 AM   #111
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...can anyone answer the question please. Does the banned paint have to be removed?
If you are referring to tributyl tin paints, the answer is, "No, they do not have to be removed." But they do have to be overcoated in such a way that no tbt biocide can leach out. Know also that tbt paints are incompatible with copper-based products.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:17 AM   #112
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WesK wrote;
"I asked her if she knew where electricity came from and she said "rivers".

That used to be true in the PNW. And she was an "old lady". Huge numbers of people are not aware that has changed dramatically. This is also a statement that old people are dumb. They are actually smarter but some of their stored information is "dated". Young people are actually dumb to think that old people have less experience. Think of the young people's saying "been there done that". Opps .. I think Ive said that many times. What was this thread about?
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:38 AM   #113
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WesK wrote;
"I asked her if she knew where electricity came from and she said "rivers".

That used to be true in the PNW. And she was an "old lady". Huge numbers of people are not aware that has changed dramatically. This is also a statement that old people are dumb. They are actually smarter but some of their stored information is "dated". Young people are actually dumb to think that old people have less experience. Think of the young people's saying "been there done that". Opps .. I think Ive said that many times. What was this thread about?
As so often happens on web forums, you seem to have read a lot into my post that I didn't write.

I did not say she was "old". She's no spring chicken but she is several years younger than I am. And she is not from the PNW and I don't believe she's ever even been there. She is from the south east USA.

The lady in question works in the marina office. It's true that some electricity in parts of the USA is generated by hydroelectric dams, but environmentalists have pretty much assured that no more hydroelectric dams will be built in the USA. Nobody wants nuclear power plants in their neighborhood so basically, that's out. That leaves burning fossil fuel as the predominant method of producing electricity. The pollution is still there, the difference is, it's in somebody else's neighborhood.

Her argument was that electricity could be generated by solar and wind and her proof was that some homes use solar and wind power and sell excess energy back to the power company. That's not untrue of course, but solar and wind energy are not available 24/7. Storage for a home is not a big deal (it's just like on a boat), but on the scale to run cities and factories it's not practical.

Using stored electrical energy to power vehicles and boats is another issue. Battery technology is not there yet. Sure you can buy a car that will go 400 miles on a battery charge but if you need to go 500 miles, you are out of luck. It was my (and the dockhand's) argument that it's more efficient to burn fuel directly to power a vehicle or boat than it is to burn fuel to heat water to turn a turbine to produce electricity, transport it hundreds of miles, convert it to low voltage DC to charge a battery and then discharge the battery to produce power to run the vehicle or boat.

The strange (and sad) part of the whole conversation was that a marina (and her job) depends entirely on people burning fossil fuel to go places in their boats that they don't really need to go.
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Old 03-29-2017, 11:07 AM   #114
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SeaHawk makes a primer that is a conversation/sealer to go over TBT paint or for unknown or incomparable bottom paints. I beleave one of the other major paint manufacturers does or use to market a similar product.
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Old 03-29-2017, 04:31 PM   #115
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Greetings,
As an aside, the discovery that copper was an essential trace element happened in New Zealand. At one point, their sheep developed a condition called the "blind staggers". Not good for a nation that depends heavily on agriculture. Scientists found that a nutritional copper deficiency was the cause. When copper supplements were added to the sheep's feed, the condition disappeared. Further research indicated that New Zealand was lacking or low in a number of essential trace elements in the natural environment. Selenium is another that comes to mind. So New Zealand is the birthplace of trace element research. Go figure
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Old 03-29-2017, 04:36 PM   #116
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Greetings,
As an aside, copper was discovered to be an essential trace element in New Zealand. At one point, their sheep developed a condition called the "blind staggers". Not good for a nation that depends heavily on agriculture. Scientists found that a nutritional copper deficiency was the cause. When copper supplements were added to the sheep's feed, the condition disappeared. Further research indicated that New Zealand was lacking or low in a number of essential trace elements in the natural environment. Selenium is another that comes to mind. So New Zealand is the birthplace of trace element research. Go figure
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Old 03-29-2017, 05:08 PM   #117
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Greetings,
Mr. g. But, but...they're not staggering.
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Old 03-29-2017, 07:58 PM   #118
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Mr. g. But, but...they're not staggering.
I'd say that about as staggering looking a flock o' sheep I ever seen! The one on right to rear looks as though it'd gonna fall over... Look at its ears, mouth slant and the tilt on the glasses. That is a staggering blind sheep!

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Old 03-29-2017, 08:44 PM   #119
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Stop it Art. You`ll excite the New Zealanders.
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Old 03-29-2017, 10:36 PM   #120
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Thank God for the Paint Police.
If not for them, who knows what mayhem would follow.
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