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Old 03-26-2017, 07:09 PM   #81
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Art-- the entire tin topic is moot! Tin based paints are not available in this country at least that I am aware of. Fastbottom got carried away when I pulled his chain suggesting that he would be out of work if tin based paints were available. So he responded in frustration suggesting that those objecting to his outlook were douchebags!

A case can be made for all metals being hazardous to life. Trade offs should be made where risks vs benefits are considered. This is a major problem today with the EPA that hopefully will get corrected. Consider many dry gullies that flood during heavy rains were being subjected by the EPA to the clean water act which applies by law to navigational waters. OK, this is a different topic but my reason for presenting it is to illustrate how wacky decisions are made without a careful risk/benefit tradeoff.
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Old 03-26-2017, 07:36 PM   #82
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Art-- the entire tin topic is moot! Tin based paints are not available in this country at least that I am aware of. Fastbottom got carried away when I pulled his chain suggesting that he would be out of work if tin based paints were available. So he responded in frustration suggesting that those objecting to his outlook were douchebags!

A case can be made for all metals being hazardous to life. Trade offs should be made where risks vs benefits are considered. This is a major problem today with the EPA that hopefully will get corrected. Consider many dry gullies that flood during heavy rains were being subjected by the EPA to the clean water act which applies by law to navigational waters. OK, this is a different topic but my reason for presenting it is to illustrate how wacky decisions are made without a careful risk/benefit tradeoff.

It is favorable to environmentalists to object to anything that presents the slightest health risk. In the meantime we still have millions dying from the perils of society that include street peddled illegal opiates to legal cigarettes. I venture to guess that these substances have far greater negative impact on society in general than ANY marine antifouling paint. Maybe environmentalists are banging the wrong drum!
I think you have emphasis on the wrong syl-a-ble. In that... opiates and cigarettes do not too much [but somewhat do] hurt the environment, in general... but they can [too often do] kill the user. For the user that is just too bad - but it's their own fault! So... good by to each user.

However, environmentally toxic substances [poisons] can [do] kill off sectors of needed ecosystem parts and portions... therefore ruining things for innocent non users.

So, we all should do our best to protect Earth... as best we can. Believe me I'm no saint, but I do remain as conscious as possible about poisons to air, water, land..
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Old 03-26-2017, 07:52 PM   #83
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Tin based paints are not available in this country ....
A case can be made for all metals being hazardous to life.
Calling Tributyltin "tin based" and equating it to other metals is like calling sulfuric acid "oxygen based" and equating it to breathing fresh air. It just shows a real lack of understanding.
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Old 03-26-2017, 08:06 PM   #84
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Foggysail, if you'd like to have an intelligent conversation about our west coast estuary ecosystem, please PM me. I think there's a lots going on here that you don't understand or have been mislead about.

The Delta Smelt to which you refer have coexisted with salmon, sturgeon and other fishes in this system for hundreds if not thousands of years. Striped bass were introduced in the late 1800's after the completion of the intercontinental railway. They have thrived together for over 100 years until recently. The significant population drop in all these species coincides precisely with the water exportation increase to the corporate farmers in CA. (Don't let those guys fool you....they are VERY BIG business.)

It's been frequently said that the delta smelt are a harbinger species...the proverbial canary in the coal mine. Vast exports of the fresh water and the heavy pump suction needed causes reversing of some nearby rivers. This causes huge losses for the smelt and other species which cannot survive the loss of fresh water (too salty) or current and perish in the pumps. They require a narrow temp and salinity band for survival during early stages of life.

Once they go, many more species will follow. If the Gov gets his way and constructs huge tunnels to divert the freshwater from the delta before it gets to the rivers and sloughs, it will become a saltwater swamp. Much has been improved environmentally in the SF Bay and CA Delta throughout the last couple of decades but there's much left to correct.
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:12 PM   #85
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Calling Tributyltin "tin based" and equating it to other metals is like calling sulfuric acid "oxygen based" and equating it to breathing fresh air. It just shows a real lack of understanding.
Gosh, too bad we all aren't chemists like you, 'cause I guess you know more than the paint manufacturer.

Seahawk's product description of Islands 44:

"Self-cleaning copolymer with high load of tin (TBT)"

https://www.seahawkpaints.com/product/islands-44-plus/


Product description of their tbt additive:

"Sea Hawk Tin Booster is a straight tin-based binder loaded with tin. Its high strength will add an extra kick to any tin-based antifouling."

https://www.seahawkpaints.com/product/tin-booster/
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Old 03-26-2017, 09:25 PM   #86
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Gosh, too bad we all aren't chemists like you, 'cause I guess you know more than the paint manufacturer.

Seahawk's product description of Islands 44:

"Self-cleaning copolymer with high load of tin (TBT)"

https://www.seahawkpaints.com/product/islands-44-plus/


Product description of their tbt additive:

"Sea Hawk Tin Booster is a straight tin-based binder loaded with tin. Its high strength will add an extra kick to any tin-based antifouling."

https://www.seahawkpaints.com/product/tin-booster/
I'm no chemist, but just read the wiki article. Yes, it appears common to call it tin-based, but it's totally different from mixing copper into a paint. Seahawk SDS sheet for the product lists the contents. There is no tin as a separate component. Just Tributyltin which happens to include tin atoms, just like sulfuric acid contains oxygen atoms.
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Old 03-26-2017, 10:24 PM   #87
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Don't forget to mix in some cayenne pepper while you're at it.


Great idea you could also thin the antifoul with gun oil and get 2 knots faster
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:02 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by fstbttms View Post
Gosh, too bad we all aren't chemists like you, 'cause I guess you know more than the paint manufacturer.

Seahawk's product description of Islands 44:

"Self-cleaning copolymer with high load of tin (TBT)"

https://www.seahawkpaints.com/product/islands-44-plus/


Product description of their tbt additive:

"Sea Hawk Tin Booster is a straight tin-based binder loaded with tin. Its high strength will add an extra kick to any tin-based antifouling."

https://www.seahawkpaints.com/product/tin-booster/
Wow! That's some heavy duty sounding bottom paint... and, its "tin-booster" additive.
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Old 03-27-2017, 07:35 AM   #89
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Seahawk 44 is a popular paint here in the English speaking islands of the eastern Caribbean.

I used a US approved bottom paint for nine years in US harbors. Very satisfied. Once I got south of St. Martin I found I needed to clean the bottom every couple of weeks even though we were moving and at anchor.

The various sea creatures here are very aggressive in attaching to and growing on any surface. If you stay in a marina you will suffer extensive growth.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:08 AM   #90
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Hey, hey... I have to side with fstbttms on this... in so far as only ecosystem compatible bottom paint should be used on boats. Not the old school very-poisonous types of yesteryear; even if they deter growths better.

foggysail - We're all in this together on planet Earth. And, (considering pleasure boating collectively as an organization), if we ask other organizations having things such as polluting car emissions, plane emissions, ocean liner emissions, land based septic-treatment plants, coal fired electrical plants, concrete manufacturers... and on and on to stop polluting (which they must or earth's ecosystem will eventually be ruined) then our "Pleasure and Commercial Boating Organization[s]" must as best we can stop polluting too.

One easy way to help curb pollution from the boating industry is to use non polluting bottom paints - that is plain and simple!
Whoa, big boy, Let's not get ourselves carried away.

The cause of pollution on this earth is humans. Get rid of the humans and the planet will survive just fine!

Oh, you think that's a bad idea? OK then, we have to balance pollution with humans and their activities. It seems pretty ironic for a guy who buys a boat made out of petrochemicals and burns fossil fuel to take him back and forth to places he doesn't need to go to be complaining about people's septic systems and so forth. Maybe you should trade your trawler in on a sailboat. Or better yet, a kayak.

If we're not going to get rid of the humans, we should minimize pollution. We can't eliminate it. We can't stop burning coal or making concrete without drastically changing our lifestyle. And if we continue to have recreational boating, we must continue to use effective bottom paints. Maybe someday there will be a bottom paint or treatment that causes no harm to the environment but since what we are trying to do with our bottom paint is prevent growth which is part of the environment, that's going to be pretty difficult to do.

And we can't control what other people do. The fact that tin based bottom paints are legal in other parts of the world is proof of that.

Personally, I'm not one to sneak illegal bottom paint into this country but I will continue to use the most effective legal products.
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Old 03-27-2017, 08:46 AM   #91
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Whoa, big boy, Let's not get ourselves carried away.

The cause of pollution on this earth is humans. Get rid of the humans and the planet will survive just fine!

Oh, you think that's a bad idea? OK then, we have to balance pollution with humans and their activities. It seems pretty ironic for a guy who buys a boat made out of petrochemicals and burns fossil fuel to take him back and forth to places he doesn't need to go to be complaining about people's septic systems and so forth. Maybe you should trade your trawler in on a sailboat. Or better yet, a kayak.

If we're not going to get rid of the humans, we should minimize pollution. We can't eliminate it. We can't stop burning coal or making concrete without drastically changing our lifestyle. And if we continue to have recreational boating, we must continue to use effective bottom paints. Maybe someday there will be a bottom paint or treatment that causes no harm to the environment but since what we are trying to do with our bottom paint is prevent growth which is part of the environment, that's going to be pretty difficult to do.

And we can't control what other people do. The fact that tin based bottom paints are legal in other parts of the world is proof of that.

Personally, I'm not one to sneak illegal bottom paint into this country but I will continue to use the most effective legal products.
Yo! I never said I'm a saint. Just thinking of best actions to take while still living/enjoying life. I'm not completely "green". I am somewhat thoughtful.
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Old 03-27-2017, 09:56 AM   #92
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We live in an industrial society. Our activities are often going to cause pollution- that is a given. But knowing this, we as boaters should do what we can to be good stewards of the environment. So when have a choice of anti fouling paints, we shouldn't use one of the worst poisons ever intentionally introduced into the marine enviornment. Nor is it reasonable to be expected to use a product that (while environmentally-friendly) may have poor anti fouling properties. It's a balancing act. Do what you can to leave a small footprint.
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Old 03-27-2017, 05:05 PM   #93
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I believe one can sell a non-US flagged vessel in the US. Very frequently done by Canadians who buy boats in the US register them in Canada but pay neither the HST (Canadian Sales Tax) or the Canadian import duty. When it comes time to sell they frequently sell the boat in the US without ever paying these two Canadian taxes.

That's fine as long as you never bring it into Canada. I think these people are on thin ice if they ever brought them up here.

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Old 03-27-2017, 05:11 PM   #94
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Greetings,
Mr. JDC. I don't think thin ice enters into it as long as the vessel never enters Canadian waters. IF it ever does, the owner immediately has to pay the applicable taxes. I've heard of a case (anecdotal information ONLY) where a Canadian bought a boat in the US that was licensed in the US and he kept it there BUT if he ever brought it into Canada, even for a short visit, he would owe taxes the same as if he were importing it.
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Old 03-27-2017, 06:09 PM   #95
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Portable xrf guns cost has dropped significantly BECAUSE customs snd border officials have purchased scads of them in the last 5-10 years. Easy and fast way to verify materials. 10k or 14k gold? Lead based paint? Improperly marked SS? Customs officers are very familiar with xrf capabilities. When I was looking to import an Albin from the States, a signed declaration stating the bottom paint type was required to cross the border.
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Old 03-28-2017, 04:01 AM   #96
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That's fine as long as you never bring it into Canada. I think these people are on thin ice if they ever brought them up here.

Jim
Jim

From what I hear from my Canadian friends you are absolutely correct and most would not even try to bring the boats to Canada. These are boats bought outside of Canada and will be used exclusively outside of Canada.

About half the Canadians I have met in the Eastern Caribbean have boats registered in Canada and have not paid the duty or HST. The boats are bought in Florida or the Eastern Caribbean and are not intended to be used in Canada.

Some Americans and many Europeans are in the same situation. Their boats were bought in the Eastern Caribbean and duty and sales taxes have not been paid to the US or the VAT has not been paid to the EU countries. This is changing as the VAT has been adopted by Eastern Caribbean countries and thus it may be better to pay the taxes back home than to a Caribbean island.

Friends are selling an expensive ketch here in St. Lucia and as part of the closing the sellers have hired a captain to sail the boat out of St. Lucia to somewhere (I forget) where the VAT will not apply. Sellers and buyers are all Europeans.
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:47 AM   #97
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If I were a douchbag regarding a certain circumstance... I sure wouldn't write openly about it!
So here is a question. For all those that believe in no cooper base bottom paint, show me one report/proof that shows:

1. Dead fish/marine life due to copper paint,
2. That cooper paint from a boat is responsible for detectable pollution/dead marine life.

So far all I have seen is speculation.
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Old 03-28-2017, 10:57 AM   #98
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So if you don't see dead fish floating around, high levels of copper must not be harmful?

Holy jeezus. Friggin' ponderous.

From the California Department of Pesticide Regulation:

"Although copper is an effective biocide, it may also affect non-target organisms and pose environmental concerns. Copper may be washed into the aquatic environment from agricultural and urban application sites and may enter water when used as a biocide in antifouling paint formulations. The latter use may constitute a major copper pollution contributor to California marinas, because antifouling paints continually leach from and are regularly scrubbed off boat hulls, thus releasing copper-containing paint residues into the surrounding water and sediment. The resulting copper concentrations may potentially be high enough to threaten aquatic organisms."

"Aquatic species differ greatly in their sensitivity to copper. Some animals, like mollusks, can tolerate high concentrations of the metal, while others are adversely affected by very low concentrations of copper. Emerging evidence shows that very low, sublethal copper levels can adversely affect the sense of smell and behavior of fish. The developmental stage of the fish at the time of copper exposure is critical to the reversibility of sensory function effects. The fish olfactory system may be the most sensitive structure to copper pollution."
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Old 03-28-2017, 12:18 PM   #99
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. The resulting copper concentrations may potentially be high enough to threaten aquatic organisms."
"

First it is from California. Second re-read your post. "cooper concentrations MAY...."

May. There are more pressing pollution concerns than those from recreational boaters bottom paint. No proof to indicate there is an ACTUAL affect on aquatic life. None! It is someone who is an environmental waco terrorist "feelings" about what MAY happen. You would think that there would be actual scientific proof as cooper based bottom paint has been around for a very long time. No proof.
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Old 03-28-2017, 03:18 PM   #100
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Greetings,
Mr. ASD. Sorry, there IS proof of copper being toxic to marine organisms.

Is copper sulfate toxic to fish? / Algae Treatment / Knowledge Base - BioWorld Support

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olfact...xicity_in_fish

Copper - toxicity, ecological toxicity and regulatory information

Mechanisms of Copper Toxicity to Marine Fish - IAAAM1979 - VIN

I could go on you know...
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