Any Synthetic Oil Users Here?

[Codger2]

Just a very short "Google) on this subject brings up some very interesting facts, supported by some unimpeachable sources.

Also, some "old wives tales" and myths are exposed.

HowStuffWorks "The Science of Synthetic Oils"

 

[Art]

Originally Posted by psneeld
If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up.

I couldn't agree more!

But - Who bothers to start their engines before dropping all dock attachments, pwr cord and primary lines etc... Except a spring line or two – for a then quick get-away when decision to depart is made? At least that’s how I operate.

I'm firm believer that idle till at least partially if not fully warmed-up before applying load to any type of engine is simply good policy. Also, I like to be standing atop engines as they warm (not walking around untying) so I can listen closely to the engines’ music and tell if ther’re starting to perform "on key"... or not.

With that said - You can tell I'm pretty much a better safe than sorry type guy when it comes to averting expensive/time-consuming mechanical breakdowns. That's called "Da Nature of The Beast!" LOL

 

[psneeld]

I have never seen a boater do that. NEVER!!

What? Motor out without fogging up the marina with his exhaust?

I see it all the time by cruisers, and professional mariners who know that diesels won't generally warm up without some load on them and no harm is being done.

Here's straight from the Yanmar website

How long should I warm up the engine for before moving off?
Fresh water cooled engines: Today's engines do not require long warm up periods. By the time you start the engine, check all clear, cast off and get out of the marina or in a clear area the temp will be over 60deg C, 140deg F, you can apply full power to get on the plane. Displacement vessels can go straight to cruising power once clear of the marina.

Yanmar Marine Engine Help

 

[Capthead]

Just a very short "Google) on this subject brings up some very interesting facts, supported by some unimpeachable sources.

Also, some "old wives tales" and myths are exposed.

HowStuffWorks "The Science of Synthetic Oils"

Thanks, that's a great article and covers most of what has been discussed here.
I liked the part about electric motors having bearings with synthetic lube.
Call me crazy, but I put Mobil 1 in my oil can and use that for my AC water pump and fan motor lube. It quietened them down a lot. Now I'm looking for other uses for it.

 

[Art]

What? Motor out without fogging up the marina with his exhaust?

I see it all the time by cruisers, and professional mariners who know that diesels won't generally warm up without some load on them and no harm is being done.

Here's straight from the Yanmar website

How long should I warm up the engine for before moving off?
Fresh water cooled engines: Today's engines do not require long warm up periods. By the time you start the engine, check all clear, cast off and get out of the marina or in a clear area the temp will be over 60deg C, 140deg F, you can apply full power to get on the plane. Displacement vessels can go straight to cruising power once clear of the marina.

Yanmar Marine Engine Help

Respectfully I say... just because: “Today's engines do not require long warm up periods.“ Does not mean a full warm-up is bad (or maybe even better for any engine) before leaving dock.

 

[Capthead]

What? Motor out without fogging up the marina with his exhaust?

I see it all the time by cruisers, and professional mariners who know that diesels won't generally warm up without some load on them and no harm is being done.

Here's straight from the Yanmar website

How long should I warm up the engine for before moving off?
Fresh water cooled engines: Today's engines do not require long warm up periods. By the time you start the engine, check all clear, cast off and get out of the marina or in a clear area the temp will be over 60deg C, 140deg F, you can apply full power to get on the plane. Displacement vessels can go straight to cruising power once clear of the marina.


Yanmar Marine Engine Help

I think I said one of the benefits was a huge reduction of smoke on start up. Also 75% less sheen on the water.

 

[psneeld]

OK...show me ONE manual that recommends a temperature at which you should start motoring at...

You can't and I will show dozens that will say...wait until normal oil pressure is established until applying a load and the other rule is no full throttle till normal operating temp.

Maybe you can find one out there but I just read over ten, including my Lehman manual that all say the EXACT thing as in the above paragraph.

No one is saying bring her right up to 80-90 percent load...but sitting at the dock smoking everyone out is rude and not needed.

 

[Marin]

ut - Who bothers to start their engines before dropping all dock attachments, pwr cord and primary lines etc...

We load the boat, do the engine room checks, remove the groundpower cable, some of the docklines, and do the other things we do to get the boat ready to go. When all this is done we start the engines and confirm the exhaust waterflow from each engine as it's started.

Once the engines are running we turn on the electronics and set them up. Then we take in the remaining lines and leave the slip.

So the engines probably idle in the slip about ten minutes or so before we get underway.

 

[Art]

OK...show me ONE manual that recommends a temperature at which you should start motoring at...

You can't and I will show dozens that will say...wait until normal oil pressure is established until applying a load and the other rule is no full throttle till normal operating temp.

Maybe you can find one out there but I just read over ten, including my Lehman manual that all say the EXACT thing as in the above paragraph.

No one is saying bring her right up to 80-90 percent load...but sitting at the dock smoking everyone out is rude and not needed.

Agreed, regarding some boat’s engines: However, my 350's don't use oil, run clean, and don't smoke during idle/warm-up... or at any other time (I’ve carbs’ automatic chokes well adjusted). And, I dock bow in so, amongst other reasons, exhaust is not toward the main dock ramp. We’re lucky; our dock provides wide open area to rear of our boat!

 

[Art]

We load the boat, do the engine room checks, remove the groundpower cable, some of the docklines, and do the other things we do to get the boat ready to go. When all this is done we start the engines and confirm the exhaust waterflow from each engine as it's started.

Once the engines are running we turn on the electronics and set them up. Then we take in the remaining lines and leave the slip.

So the engines probably idle in the slip about ten minutes or so before we get underway.

That the way! Perfect time for basic warm up!

 

[psneeld]

That the way! Perfect time for basic warm up!

10 minutes and my Lehman doesn't even show movement yet in the temp gauge...100 deg...so thats all I was saying...its not really a warmup but neither a start it and floor it either...

 

[BaltimoreLurker]

But - Who bothers to start their engines before dropping all dock attachments, pwr cord and primary lines etc... Except a spring line or two – for a then quick get-away when decision to depart is made? At least that’s how I operate.

Me. Window covers are off, oil, tranny and coolant checked, stuff hauled to the flybridge & drinks stowed before I start the engine. But the docklines & shorepower are still connected. A check to see that water is coming out of the exhaust and oil and/or water is not being flung around the engine room and then the showepower and docklines come off.

With my cars and trucks I always wait until they drop off fast idle before I put 'em in gear and move off.

 

[Art]

Me. Window covers are off, oil, tranny and coolant checked, stuff hauled to the flybridge & drinks stowed before I start the engine. But the docklines & shorepower are still connected. A check to see that water is coming out of the exhaust and oil and/or water is not being flung around the engine room and then the showepower and docklines come off.

With my cars and trucks I always wait until they drop off fast idle before I put 'em in gear and move off.

BL - "... & drinks stowed..." That sounds maybe dangerous - how many "drinks" do you usually have before departure?? "Stowed" mean in your hand or in a close proximity gimbaled drink holder??

Just joshing ya... Motor – ON!!

 

[FlyWright]

10 minutes and my Lehman doesn't even show movement yet in the temp gauge...100 deg...so thats all I was saying...its not really a warmup but neither a start it and floor it either...

I agree. My routine pretty much matches Marin's.

Lines stay attached until both engines are running. I don't leave the slip until I've confirmed oil pressure (immediately on start-up) and water flow out the exhaust (immediately after confirming oil pressure). I idle out (1200 RPM max) until my temps reach 140. This usually takes less than 5 minutes. Then I run at reduced power 15-1700 RPM until 170, then cruise at 2000 RPM and temps then stabilize at 180. When I'm 10 minutes after push back, I'm already cruising.

Sorry for the detour on this thread...

 

[rwidman]

I thought thinner oil was required because of the closer tolerances in modern engines due to advanced manufacturing techniques. Could still be fuel economy related I guess. Or more HP. Or the same HP from less fuel, or ... whatever. But what do I know?

Less friction = better fuel economy. I can't prove or disprove it, but that's what they claim.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Less friction may be a product of lower viscosity. It would be hard to measure the viscosity of the oil in an engine while it is running. And if this is less viscosity you'd get the same from dino oil. But some of these tests are well engineered tests ...... and some aren't.

BL,
You could probably verify that by looking up the rebuild specs for new engines and old. The ability to machine parts w less variation and clearance may require thinner less viscous oil but an oil of sufficient viscosity is still needed to keep the parts apart. I'm think'in closer tolerances would permit engines to be built more ideally but I don't see how closer tolerances has anything tondo nw syn oil.

 

[sunchaser]

If anyone here can start their engine and get all their lines off and underway before there's oil in all parts of their engine I'd be amazed. Idling out of the marina is better for it than just sitting there letting it warm up. You can argue it but for every person that doesn't think so there's one that does.

Many diesel engines would take forever to warm up past even 100 degrees just sitting in the slip at idle....I never could get my Cat 3208s past 100 until I started moving.

The average diesel pickup engine gets started and driven away at much higher than idle and survives just fine for hundreds of thousands of miles.

and we are speaking of diesels, something GM is little experienced at.

 

[markpierce]

I use the oil the engine's builder originally put into it or as they recommended. And so far, no artificial oil.

 

[Peter B]

Where is the scientific evidence to prove synthetic oil does not protect against corrosion?
From what I read, fossil oil's molecule is round and it rolls off metal when it's not under pressure to be there. Hence the ads by those oil additive companies where the worse thing for engine wear is a cold start. There is no oil in the bearings, cylinder walls, valve train, etc. until the oil pump pushes the oil there.

I watch my neighbors get in their cars every morning and do a cold start and before I can count to two they have it in gear and are driving away. That causes engine wear. This is another reason engine mfg's went to lower viscosity oil. 30W takes probably 120 seconds to get all the way through the oil passages, bearing surfaces and valve train. 0 Wh 15 can get there in 45 seconds.

I learned synthetic oil's molecule is long and thin. It has a magnet on one end and is super slick on the other end. When it attaches to metal it doesn't come off. Think of it like hair on a cat. You can touch the cat but you can't touch it's skin.

Capthead, that point sounds very much like the principle behind Castrol's Magnatec, which I confess to using in my Lehman 120, of 1975 vintage, and it works fine, and I do so because of the claimed better cold start wear reduction, because it 'sticks' magnetically to the metal. It appears full synthetics also do this, so I see nothing against using them if the cost is not an issue, which longer service intervals suggest would not be significant anyway.

 

[Capthead]

If I'm not mistaken, Prolong is an oil additive that is positive charged oil and it sticks to the block (negative charged) like a magnet and can stay there for an estimated 2000 miles. I have never tried it, but for people who only use dino oil, that is an option for reduced wear on cold starts.

 

[BaltimoreLurker]

BL - "... & drinks stowed..." That sounds maybe dangerous - how many "drinks" do you usually have before departure?? "Stowed" mean in your hand or in a close proximity gimbaled drink holder??

Just joshing ya... Motor – ON!!

Usually, the only provisions brought aboard are a cooler full of beverages. I no longer live in Annapolis, but I do still adhere to the adage, "A drinking town with a boating problem."

 

[Nomad Willy]

No I said just the opposite - it is OK to feel good about the oil you use.

Sorry Tom. I forgot what I said.

Your point about the thermostat controlling the temperature of the coolant re the OP claim that his coolant temp dropped 5 degrees kinda throws water on the idea that the synthetic oil causes less friction. But it IS interesting (at least) that the other engine did the same thing after the change to synthetic on the other engine. The thermostat does control the temp of the coolant but (I think) not absolutely. But if the syn lube was causing the change one would think it would need to be a very big change to cause a 5 degree change in the coolant that is being heavily controlled by the thermostat.

Also I wonder how much truth there is/was in that Amzoil propaganda I bookmarked and can no longer find on TF about the viscosity improvers in multi-vis oils causing sludge buildup over time?

Here's most of it.

"As already mentioned, VI improving additives can shear back under pressure and high heat conditions leaving the motor oil unable to protect the engine properly under high heat conditions and cause sludging. Also there is a limit to how much viscosity improving additives can be added without affecting the rest of the motor oil's chemistry. Auto manufacturers have moved away from some motor oils that require a lot of viscosity improving additives, like the 10W-40 and 20W-50 motor oils, to blends that require less viscosity additives like the 5W-20, 5W-30 and 10W-30 motor oils. Because stress loads on multi viscosity motor oils can also cause thinning many racers choose to use a straight weight petroleum racing motor oil or a PAO based Synthetic which do not have the VI additives. But only the Group IV (4) PAO based synthetics generally don't need VI additives."

I use muli-vis in my cars but this leaves me think'in I should start using straight weight SAE30 or 40 oil. Before we had multi-vis people used 20, 30 and sometimes 40 weight oil. Haven't seen 20 weight oil for a very long time. Multi-vis was something people started using in the winter where it got down to 0 degrees in the winter. Nobody else seemed to need it and it was looked at like we look at synthetic oil now. Just like our boats I don't think we need it unless we experience hard starting from the cold.

 

[Capthead]

My brother-in-law, who was head chemist at Phillips 66, said the refineries can't make an oil with all the molecules the same. When you buy 20W for example, it has 10 to 30W molecules but the majority is 20W. He said the reason they started multi weights was more so to be more accurate as to what the oil is.

That was in the 70's and he died that decade. I'm sure things have changed since then but that was his explanation.

All oil has improved over the years and with computer controlled refineries I'm sure they are better at accuracy.

 

[Craig Schreck]

I love oil posts... which is better and all the how & whys, lots of posts on many subjects from economy to warm up time, I wish I had more time to play buy I have to pump a lot of diesel tomorrow so its a real early start and it took a wile to go thru the 5 pages to get to this point... so I would Like to add just some points on oil, Almost any oil will work providing it meets the engine mans spec's, But... Blow by.... oil contamination... oil temp.... fuel dilution and filter quality should be addressed with some basic engine design factors to form an opinion on what oil to use, If you guys want to see some scary stuff.. just cut open some oil filters and see how they are made, what they filter or don't filter again thanks for the info guys it was good reading

 

[Capthead]

I mentioned bypass 2 micron filters.

 

[Art]

fuel dilution and filter quality should be addressed with some basic engine design factors to form an opinion on what oil to use, If you guys want to see some scary stuff.. just cut open some oil filters and see how they are made, what they filter or don't filter

Foundation of keeping enclosed mechanical operations in best condition, i.e gears, bearings... or other items requiring lubrication-barriers: Keep the appropriately correct lubricants clean and in good condition with consistent fluid changes at proper intervals; replaced or cleaned filters if so equipped.

 

[rwidman]

................., If you guys want to see some scary stuff.. just cut open some oil filters and see how they are made, what they filter or don't filter ........

Suggesting that we each cut up a bunch of oil filters to see how they are made and what they filter doesn't really do us much good as we won't typically have a bunch of used oil filters lying around the house.

Why don't you go ahead and tell us about it or better yet, post some photos.

 

[Daddyo]

I met a boat mechanic yesterday that switched to synth in the 80s. He was racing dune buggies with aircooled VW engines and his always ran at 270. His friend talked him into switching to Amsoil synth and his temp dropped to 160 and never went higher again. He runs it on all of his boats and most of his clients. He is known as the Hino guru and travels servicing Bayliners.

 

[Capthead]

I met a boat mechanic yesterday that switched to synth in the 80s. He was racing dune buggies with aircooled VW engines and his always ran at 270. His friend talked him into switching to Amsoil synth and his temp dropped to 160 and never went higher again. He runs it on all of his boats and most of his clients. He is known as the Hino guru and travels servicing Bayliners.

Outstanding! I have a friend that races motorcycles and he also only uses synthetic. I think most racers have switched over.

I once read a test of oil filters and I can't say it was funded by Fram but they won hands down on several factors. 1, the ability to trap particles and 2, the amount they can hold before going into bypass mode.
The worse filters were Autolite and the generic cheap ones. After that I quit going to service stations for oil changes because they grabbed the cheap filters. I took my own Fram to a station and they refused to use it, saying if something went wrong they would be liable.
It was a Trans Am with a Corvette engine and it had to be lifted to even get an oil pan under it. I hated doing oil changes on that car.

 

[Peter B]

If I'm not mistaken, Prolong is an oil additive that is positive charged oil and it sticks to the block (negative charged) like a magnet and can stay there for an estimated 2000 miles. I have never tried it, but for people who only use dino oil, that is an option for reduced wear on cold starts.

That sounds very like the product Bi-Tron, which was sold 15 odd hers ago as an additive via network marketing. I got involved for a while, and although I just proved, once again, I'm a hopeless salesman, the product certainly lived up to its claims. We were told the technology was actually developed by the Russians, who got sick of their tanks being wrecked, or rather their gear boxes and/or engines of their tanks being wrecked by land mines laid by the Afghan resistance when they were silly enough to try to conquer that country, so they developed this oil with positively charged molecules that were attracted to the negatively charged engine metal. The hotter it gets, the more negatively charged = attracted the oil more strongly. It's allowed a gutted tank to drive home without wrecking the mechanicals. They showed demos of cars with oil drained out being driven without seizing up for long periods. Their spray on penetrating oil was amazing. I still have some I use on stiff joints, sliding doors etc. last for months.

When Castrol started using the same technology in the Magnatec, it sort of killed Bi-Tron off I suspect, as it sort of died away. I use it in my vehicles as well as the boat. I think it performs as well as the full synthetics, but is cheaper.

Coming back tho to the point you made some have trouble accepting...that of the temp dropping from the reduced friction. That was also something noticed when using Bi-Tron. It did drop the av running temp by a small but measurable amount, so I suspect the thermostat, being a fairly crude temp control, does not have the last or total say in engine temp.
That should provoke a bit of discourse. However, I'll get in first with how that can happen. The thermostat opens at a predetermined minimum temp, not a max, so probably most engines have the coolant temp go on to rise a few degrees above that minimum until it reaches an equilibrium with the ability of the cooling system to arrest further rise. We have all noticed I'm sure how the boat (or you car for that matter) runs a bit different on the gauge in cold weather compared to hot. So an oil that actually cuts friction more, could well see it not rise as much, but still not lower it enough to cause the thermostat to close...my case rests...