Another GFCI Problem
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If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
RT Firefly
Enigma
Greetings,
Mr. AV. Whoa! Should be 110/120V UNLESS it is supposed to be a 240V circuit. IF it has a regular duplex receptacle, it IS wired incorrectly.
Mr. AV. Whoa! Should be 110/120V UNLESS it is supposed to be a 240V circuit. IF it has a regular duplex receptacle, it IS wired incorrectly.
Not likely. I was told 220v power comes from 2 110, legs. The past owner may have been attached to the wrong positions on the GFCI receptacle.
I can fix mechanical things, I hardly understand electrical.
I had a mechanic look and he was flummuxed also. Phil
Capt.Bill11
Guru
Not likely. I was told 220v power comes from 2 110, legs. The past owner may have been attached to the wrong positions on the GFCI receptacle.
I can fix mechanical things, I hardly understand electrical.
Phil
More than likely the neutral is hooked up to a hot wire or terminal block back at the main panel somewhere.
Duvie
Senior Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2011
- Messages
- 341
could be a neutral issue
it is common to share a neutral with two 120 volt circuits. I personally would not do this on a boat but maybe someone did. If the GFCI is placed in the wrong place along the shared neutral it will trip if the other circuit is used. Once tripped the neutral can become hot! One of my guys wired one in like this the other day. Once a neutral is opened (as in tripping the GFCI) 240 volts can be seen on the loads when the GFCI is tripped. Did you see the 240 volts with the GFCI tripped or when it was not tripped? That will be key in helping you determine the issue. My money is it has to do with the neutral and placement of the GFCI but just an educated guess with the current information available. Measure voltage from hot to neutral, hot to ground, and neutral to ground. Do this with the GFCI tripped and then again with it not tripped. This will help in determining the problem.
it is common to share a neutral with two 120 volt circuits. I personally would not do this on a boat but maybe someone did. If the GFCI is placed in the wrong place along the shared neutral it will trip if the other circuit is used. Once tripped the neutral can become hot! One of my guys wired one in like this the other day. Once a neutral is opened (as in tripping the GFCI) 240 volts can be seen on the loads when the GFCI is tripped. Did you see the 240 volts with the GFCI tripped or when it was not tripped? That will be key in helping you determine the issue. My money is it has to do with the neutral and placement of the GFCI but just an educated guess with the current information available. Measure voltage from hot to neutral, hot to ground, and neutral to ground. Do this with the GFCI tripped and then again with it not tripped. This will help in determining the problem.
Duvie,
I will make note and publish online tomorrow.
Thank you for taking the time to respond along with the others.
Phil Salter
High Wire
Guru
You need a marine electrician, not a mechanic, before someone gets hurt.Not likely. I was told 220v power comes from 2 110, legs. The past owner may have been attached to the wrong positions on the GFCI receptacle.
I can fix mechanical things, I hardly understand electrical.
Phil
Bottom line is we're all just guessing here at what the solution to your problem is.
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caltexflanc
Guru
Urgently agree with this, not to be trifled with if you have any uncertainty whatsoever, which the OP indicates is the case.
stubones99
Guru
get a simple plug in GFCI tester and verify which ones pass and which ones fail. then find out the order of the circuits. If you treat the problem as links in a chain, it won't be as intimidating. Only thing is chains don't shock you...
You have a circuit that is wired incorrectly.
You have a circuit that is wired incorrectly.
I stopped by Lowes and purchased an outlet tester GFCI capable. I will rattle the chain in the morning, come looking for me if I do not show up for dinner.
Thanks
Phil
High Wire
Guru
These are not built for 220V. Who knows what it will show if it doesn't smoke first.
A few other things:
- Any "load" that was plugged into this receptacle is likely now permanently damaged.
- Any other receptacles daisy-chained on this circuit would also be 220v and their loads also smoked.
- It is rare on a trawler to find a single receptacle alone in the circuit unless to power a dedicated load such as a refrigerator or watermaker.
- A mis-wiring error like this does not happen by itself. Someone in the past had to land a lead in the wrong place. There is no valid intentional reason for there to be 220v in the recept box before the GFCI was added. The error must be between the recept and shore power inlet.
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ulysses
Guru
I think everyone's concerns are misplaced. Sure the receptacle may cause some problems to equipment and wiring within the vessel, but the concern should be with the original owner's condition. Post #4 clearly states that the previous owner was attached to wrong positions on the GFCI. How is his condition? Did he stay attached very long? I was shocked NOT to see any concern on this Forum for his condition.
dan
dan
FF
Guru
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 22,552
On a 240 volt socket , one of the legs is sideways , to preclude a 120V plug from going in.
240V GFI are made, if you actually have a 240V user.
240V GFI are made, if you actually have a 240V user.
psneeld
Guru
Assuming the the correct setup was used...as we know...you never know for sure what some will do on bosts.
I finally looked behind my fridge this week ...instead of a simple terminal block for the DC connection...sure enough the factory installed an outlet and regular old 110 plug.nicely labeled though..fortunately the label glue is better than the construction methods.
Having read that some people have had their DC systems with black and white wiring (like the old Furuno power cords)....I wonder what color code is used in the OPS boat and still wondering if the boat is wired for a 50A 125 /250 or 2 30A cords and how the out of phase leg is in the outlet line and not the whole boat.
I finally looked behind my fridge this week ...instead of a simple terminal block for the DC connection...sure enough the factory installed an outlet and regular old 110 plug.nicely labeled though..fortunately the label glue is better than the construction methods.
Having read that some people have had their DC systems with black and white wiring (like the old Furuno power cords)....I wonder what color code is used in the OPS boat and still wondering if the boat is wired for a 50A 125 /250 or 2 30A cords and how the out of phase leg is in the outlet line and not the whole boat.
stubones99
Guru
It's the gazelle principle...
Once the lion catches a gazelle, the rest are good to go back to foraging for food... until the lion gets hungry again.
The previous owner is of no concern, obviously they cleaned up the scene of the accident, or the OP would have remarked how good a deal he got on the boat.
Once the lion catches a gazelle, the rest are good to go back to foraging for food... until the lion gets hungry again.
The previous owner is of no concern, obviously they cleaned up the scene of the accident, or the OP would have remarked how good a deal he got on the boat.
Guess I need to proof read...
I will be in Gulf Shores next week, can you recommend any restaurants?
Thanks
Phil
FF
Guru
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2007
- Messages
- 22,552
"instead of a simple terminal block for the DC connection...sure enough the factory installed an outlet and regular old 110 plug.nicely labeled though."
A house plug and sockets are great for DC as they wipe and clean when the plug goes in.
With most boats having no 240v items , the use of a 15A or 20A plug an socket built in the 240V style is a great way to power DC items of less than 20A.
These are cheap (in boat terms) and work well as DC supplys as the ground pin (not hooked up ) works to self polarize the circuit.
About 3X the current caring ability of a std cigar lighter socket and plug.
A boat with a genuine 240v socket and plug need can simply use a std 240V with a 30A plug and socket so there is no confusion.
A house plug and sockets are great for DC as they wipe and clean when the plug goes in.
With most boats having no 240v items , the use of a 15A or 20A plug an socket built in the 240V style is a great way to power DC items of less than 20A.
These are cheap (in boat terms) and work well as DC supplys as the ground pin (not hooked up ) works to self polarize the circuit.
About 3X the current caring ability of a std cigar lighter socket and plug.
A boat with a genuine 240v socket and plug need can simply use a std 240V with a 30A plug and socket so there is no confusion.
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psneeld
Guru
All true enough...knew the 240 plug trick from my days at the marine electronics firm I worked for...had their test bench wired up that way 110/12V right next to each other buy different socket/plugs.
I have a few of the 240 sockets wired for 12V too as I detest cigarette light lighter receptacle/plug combos.
But in the case of the refrigerator...for a dedicated circuit that is buried well...why add a plug and socket when either butt connectors or a terminal strip would have been fine. Access under the forward vee berth to the terminal strip would have been fine. Guess the builder had their reasons...just better if not a standard socket.
psneeld
Guru
Not sure at this point...but I would check the neutral to the ground and see if I was getting 110...If so...as really what I think some have said...you might have one of the incoming hot legs somehow getting power to the neutral.
It should be the "other" leg from the one supplying the hot to that GFI.
If not obvious and you don't have the time but have the money...a pro may be able to track down the fault with specialized tools easier than I could.
If you like the work or just plain want to do it yourself...that's one direction.
Cant think of any other reason...but there are several ways /places the fault could be happening.
C lectric
Guru
How about a GOOD photo of the receptacle. Maybe as already suggested it IS a 240v unit for some now unknown purpose.
You state the boat has 240 aboard so it may have been intentional.
A GOOD photo will tell.
You state the boat has 240 aboard so it may have been intentional.
A GOOD photo will tell.
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"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Voltages measured in multiple combinations, I removed the receptacle and wires, measured voltage at each leg, separated the line from the load wires, diagramed it all out on paper and put it all back together. I the crossed over to the starboard side of the boat to replace a bad switch. I measured the voltage and found 240v. I went to the shipyards closest receptacle and again, 240v. Meter gently discarded, it looked great flying across the yard into a pile of junk. Two things worked against me, a bad meter inherited from past owner, and the GFCI was wired incorrectly. All is well on Rogue. Many thanks to all who responded with advice. I now have a better understanding of my wiring, and a new volt ohm meter.
Phil
Voltages measured in multiple combinations, I removed the receptacle and wires, measured voltage at each leg, separated the line from the load wires, diagramed it all out on paper and put it all back together. I the crossed over to the starboard side of the boat to replace a bad switch. I measured the voltage and found 240v. I went to the shipyards closest receptacle and again, 240v. Meter gently discarded, it looked great flying across the yard into a pile of junk. Two things worked against me, a bad meter inherited from past owner, and the GFCI was wired incorrectly. All is well on Rogue. Many thanks to all who responded with advice. I now have a better understanding of my wiring, and a new volt ohm meter.
Phil
psneeld
Guru
Good job....
The best advice I ever had and passed for troubleshooting is check the simple first and when it's not that...double check yourself, your equipment and your troubleshooting proceedures....because it IS usually something simple.
The best advice I ever had and passed for troubleshooting is check the simple first and when it's not that...double check yourself, your equipment and your troubleshooting proceedures....because it IS usually something simple.
