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garbler

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Was working in a small yard in San Pedro California in 1975-76, I believe, and was helping a friend with his Cal 20. These quick nimble inexpensive little boats were prevalent everywhere in SoCal and generally held up well and left owners pocketbooks alone. He had been told by a surveyor to draw half a dozen keel bolts for inspection and if the bolts and nuts were very rusty then drop the keel and refasten, bed and fair. This interesting little keel is cast iron and has a full bolting flange all the way around bolted with flathead bolts nutted inside. I think there were like twenty-five of them ( maybe less ? ) and since the nuts were in the shallow bilge they tended to corrode. So one hand was assigned to remove all the nuts then we’d drop the casting, clean up both faying surfaces and coat with something then line it up with pins and rebed and bolt, fair off, paint and it’s done. My friend didn’t want to spend the money to sandblast and do some racing fairing work so the job seemed pretty straight forward

About three hours later I came aboard and found some of the nuts were badly rusted and frozen so it seemed like we would have to get a small Mikita grinder with a cut-off disc and remove the offenders. I really didn’t want to do this as the grinder would throw off iron particles and dust in the cabin causing rust stains. So another hand worked with the grinder using an old bed sheet to contain the particles and dust. After a while I was told all nuts were removed so I got the crane over slung the hull and slowly elevated the hull away from the keel. We had built some simple kickers and support timbers to keep the keel upright. The hull came up about foot and the keel was still attached. Set her back down then told the guys to get in there and get all nuts and drive out the bolts as they obviously missed a few. They came back and said they got ‘em so we walked around the keel and sure enough all the holes were empty, every one. Again we lifted the hull and up went the keel. The damn thing hadn’t started anywhere ?

We went to lunch and discussed this predicament to death and nobody could explain. So I went to the office and found the keel was, as I recall, about 1500 to 1700 pounds. This just doesn’t figure so the next move was wedges. We wedged in about six places and it moved a bit but I feared we might damage the hull. The white bedding compound was flexible so I just figured it was white a polysulphide or a BoatLife product and should therefore easily let go but it wouldn’t. I ask my friend the owner if the keel had been off before he bought it and all he knew was that it grounded about three to four years earlier and the work was done at small yard in Long Beach. I knew the yard owner pretty well so I called him and he remembered the job quite well. He then told me how the owner showed up with a case of this new bedding compound made by 3M called ‘ 5200 ‘ and wanted us to bed the keel with it, then he asked me ‘ how is it holding up ‘? I’d heard of 5200 but never used as it was pretty new stuff. But the only thing any of us could figure was this compound must be holding the keel on. So if this is what we were dealing with it was amazingly strong.

To close out this tale I can tell you it took us hours using old hacksaw blades heated orange with propane torches to melt thru the flange joint then we hammered in wood wedges to seperate. The hot blade would melt it’s way into and thru the 5200 then we’d drive a wedge to keep it open. After that experience I swore I’d never use 5200 anywhere that would likely have to come apart later on. It was only a few days later the yard store had a couple cases of 5200 in the store and it was selling fast but the owners were using it for jobs that some poor SOB was going to have to deal with later. Like Grand Banks window frames but that’s another story.

Rick
 
Knowing now that it was 5200 and that the joint looked good and could hold the weight of the keel, I think I would have said "screw pulling the keel, just put in new fasteners and call it good".
 
Just curious, when the bolts were removed and the keel didn't come off, why didn't you just replace the bolts with new ones (caulked) and call it done?

Ted
 
Just curious, when the bolts were removed and the keel didn't come off, why didn't you just replace the bolts with new ones (caulked) and call it done?

Ted

The answer is quite simple. We just tried to lift the hull off the ballast keel which in itself is a serious job and a lot of strain on the keel joint. So if we had just rebolted it without rebedding it and it leaked how long do you think a yard would stay in business. Not to mention all the keel bolt holes that are now opened up not bedded.

Just so you know bedding things like these keel bolts is done in one operation with the keel. Compound is liberally applied on the flange and hull keel boss, the faying surfaces are aligned with pins or drifts then bolted through the oozing bedding compound so that this compound seals the flange and the bolts. The threads are either taped or cleaned before torquing the nuts. Now it is a no no to try to get new bedding compound to adhere or form a true watertight joint to old cured or hardened compound as this is a ‘ cold joint ‘ so trying to bed new bolts on this keel can’t be guaranteed against leakage

It’s really not that much different than trying to stop a stanchion base or cleat leak by shooting some wonder product around the edges. It never works.

Rick
 
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Ok, maybe I'm missing something. The only holes through the hull were for the keel bolts? All the bolts were removed. You couldn't clean the holes through the keel and the hull, coat the holes and the new bolts with 5200 and put it all together? The strength comes from the bolts (usually) and sealing the bolts with caulk keeps the water out. What am I missing?

Ted
 
I have read an article that said they used 5200 to bed a sailboat keel.. pulled the keel bolts and took it for a sail without issues. I only use it for through hulls and transducers that I plan to never remove. Nothing else. Too bad you didn’t know about Debond at the time.
 
I had the opposite experience when I dropped the keel on my 1969 Columbia 36. Boat was 45 years old at the time and unknown if the job had ever been done previously. The hull lifted off the keel easily and whatever sealant they used was still soft and gooey like it was fresh out of the tube. I had heard about 5200 bedded keels refusing to come loose so I was relieved they had used something else. Of course the other side of the story is we had to drop the keel because the joint was leaking and one of the bolts had rusted through. I suppose if they had used 5200 we wouldn't have been there.
 
OC Diver : Reread the part about applying new compound around old compound and why it’s a very very poor practice on deck fittings etc but on ballast keels you are taking a giant risk of leakage and doing the job over. Believe it or not ballast keels which normally weight 40-50% of displacement are under a lot of dynamic strain along with the hull as it heels over. When we haul a ballast keel sailboat and set her on the blocks we are now looking at the keel joint in the best possible attitude which is compression. If we just assumed the compressed keel joint looked tight and okay well we’d be out of business. When I lifted this little Cal 20 and it’s ballast keel came with it we could see some movement but very little. However seawater has this uncanny way of finding paths that the naked eye can’t see and when hanging 20-30° on a vessel sailing hard to weather that keel joint is stressed. We aren’t magicians so there is no way of telling if that keel joint is now compromised and going to leak. We had a job order to refasten, rebed and lightly fair the keel. We did the job

Cured urethane or conventional bedding compounds set up and skin over and won’t 100% bond to new material even in ideal circumstances. Plus this is an underwater keel flange that means there is a layer of 5200 between the metal and fiberglass so there is some minor elasticity and wiggle room. There will also almost always be slime and crud no matter how watertight the keel joint is. Any surface contamination kills secondary bonds even in perfect installation environments. So think about it, there is no way to prep and clean buried 5200 between the flange and hull even if it could work.

Then you have to consider what and how did the previous yard do the job ? We had no idea other than they used 5200. And of course the initial surveyor must have suspected something to recommend drawing bolts for inspection. And finally if this isn’t enough the ballast keel is cast iron the bolts are hardened guess 5 or 8 but either way corrosion and wastage was evident, we had to cut off several. On keel flanges like this ( unusual ) I’ve learned that the counter bores can waste and enlarge so it always possible to have to rebore oversize. And with corrosion comes nasty corrosion bi-products that again contaminate bedding surfaces and preclude bonding.

I hope this explains it. But the bottom line is the correct job is drop the keel, prep, rebed and rebolt. When I was in the yards I was accused of being difficult hard assed but nobody ever said my work wasn’t first class. Had an owner ask me to just shoot some compound in the holes and install new bolts I’d have respectfully recommended another shop.

Regards
Rick
 
I have read an article that said they used 5200 to bed a sailboat keel.. pulled the keel bolts and took it for a sail without issues. I only use it for through hulls and transducers that I plan to never remove. Nothing else. Too bad you didn’t know about Debond at the time.

Conventional lead ballast keels don’t have but a series of large bolts that start at the keel forefoot as one then pair off in twos to the trailing edge of the keel. These are big bolts with nuts on the inside usually coming up through floors or transverse supports. These bolt are attached to the keel in several ways. Some cheaper smaller production boats use J-bolts that are cast with the lead pour while others are threaded into the lead and then some Euro yards use double ended studs with nuts top and bottom so there is a hard to find side pocket in the keel side to put a wrench on the lower nut. There are probably some other schemes but I’m not aware of them.

Being able to unscrew a keel bolt without dropping the keel is almost a wet dream in the boat repair business. I’ve never seen it done but I think I’ve heard about it. The problem may be threading back into the lead as lead holds threads really well and can grab and make things very difficult. As long as the bolts aren’t wasted and the keel joint is still honestly watertight then this really is a gift. Most iron, stainless and even some higher zinc alloy bronzes always waste or corrode at the keel to hull joint area where water penetrates.

Regards
Rick
 
5200 has held much heavier keels in place in similar circumstances. 3M lists it as and adhesive/sealant, and claims about 700 psi tensile strength. Adhesion is maybe a little less, maybe not. Take a keel flange 3' long x 6" wide. That is about 151,000 lbs of tensile strength if well adhered, holding on that 1800 lbs keel.

You should only use it when you don't expect to take something apart often. Nothing wrong with using it for most sailboat keel joints. I specified it for mine.

One trick in removing it in that situation: it creeps. Get some force under one corner, wait a few hours. It will elongate and relax a bit. More force, wait some more. It might take a week, most of it waiting, but it will eventually stretch enough to cut easily.
 
The bolts in the Columbia were 3/4" galvanized hangar bolts (wood screw thread on one end and machine screw thread on the other) threaded into the lead with nuts and big washers on the inside. Must have been a harder alloy of lead to hold the wood screw threads. I don't know of another make using that system.
The joint was leaking so I tried to tighten the nuts. The forward most bolt just crumbled, it was rusted to nothing in the joint. Then I knew I had a problem.
 
I heard the same story at Turner Marine in Mobile, AL where they were trying to to remove a shoal wing lead keel to replace it with a deep keel on a Catalina 42. Nothing but 5200 holding several thousand pounds of lead keel to a boat and finally having to drive wedges in to break it loose.
 
I was in San Pedro in the '70's. What yard? With that many square inches of bonding area there are likely a numbers of goo's that stick it pretty good. I don't envy you the task of taking apart something like that, I've done it and it's no fun.
 
OC Diver : Reread the part about applying new compound around old compound and why it’s a very very poor practice on deck fittings etc but on ballast keels you are taking a giant risk of leakage and doing the job over. Believe it or not ballast keels which normally weight 40-50% of displacement are under a lot of dynamic strain along with the hull as it heels over. When we haul a ballast keel sailboat and set her on the blocks we are now looking at the keel joint in the best possible attitude which is compression. If we just assumed the compressed keel joint looked tight and okay well we’d be out of business. When I lifted this little Cal 20 and it’s ballast keel came with it we could see some movement but very little. However seawater has this uncanny way of finding paths that the naked eye can’t see and when hanging 20-30° on a vessel sailing hard to weather that keel joint is stressed. We aren’t magicians so there is no way of telling if that keel joint is now compromised and going to leak. We had a job order to refasten, rebed and lightly fair the keel. We did the job

Cured urethane or conventional bedding compounds set up and skin over and won’t 100% bond to new material even in ideal circumstances. Plus this is an underwater keel flange that means there is a layer of 5200 between the metal and fiberglass so there is some minor elasticity and wiggle room. There will also almost always be slime and crud no matter how watertight the keel joint is. Any surface contamination kills secondary bonds even in perfect installation environments. So think about it, there is no way to prep and clean buried 5200 between the flange and hull even if it could work.

Then you have to consider what and how did the previous yard do the job ? We had no idea other than they used 5200. And of course the initial surveyor must have suspected something to recommend drawing bolts for inspection. And finally if this isn’t enough the ballast keel is cast iron the bolts are hardened guess 5 or 8 but either way corrosion and wastage was evident, we had to cut off several. On keel flanges like this ( unusual ) I’ve learned that the counter bores can waste and enlarge so it always possible to have to rebore oversize. And with corrosion comes nasty corrosion bi-products that again contaminate bedding surfaces and preclude bonding.

I hope this explains it. But the bottom line is the correct job is drop the keel, prep, rebed and rebolt. When I was in the yards I was accused of being difficult hard assed but nobody ever said my work wasn’t first class. Had an owner ask me to just shoot some compound in the holes and install new bolts I’d have respectfully recommended another shop.

Regards
Rick

Rick, with all do respect, pulling and replacing bolts isn't the same thing as caulking around an installed deck fitting.

Arguing that 5200 doesn't bond and cure completely, but it took you so long to separate the keel from the bottom of the boat seems to make the case for how well it does work.

Have used 5200 for decades on numerous projects. I have never found an incident of it not curing completely when the project was disassembled years later. Unless you can apply the 5200 in a vacuum, the chemical reaction starts when it's exposed to air. Some of these projects include shaft bearing struts, stern bearing holders, seacocks, and transducers. Now if the project takes hours to assemble and complete, 5200 might not be a good choice. While it may not be fun to disassemble years later, there's no doubt it bonded completely to both sufaces. While it's not my first choice above water, I see no reason to not use it under water. But then, I never have nor will bond cast iron to anything underwater.

Ted
 
Use 5200 if the parts will never have to come apart again.

Use 4200 if the parts will eventually have to come apart. (It still won't be easy)

pete
 
Now if the project takes hours to assemble and complete, 5200 might not be a good choice.

5200 comes in two versions, regular and fast cure. The label cure time of the regular is 7 days. If you look at the literature, there are a certain number of days/inch of distance from air (moisture, really). The product was made by 3M for things like keel/hull and deck/hull joints, where the open time has to be very long as it can take an hour or more just to apply the stuff on a really big joint, and another hour to position the components before you begin fastening.
 
Ted I don’t want to get into a posting contest here cause you obviously know what you know but in all fairness you are responding to things I never said. You may have imagined them but you didn’t read them

Rick, with all do respect, pulling and replacing bolts isn't the same thing as caulking around an installed deck fitting.

I never said anything like you assert I only pointed out that trying to stop thru bolt deck leaks by applying compound around the fitting’s base doesn’t work

Arguing that 5200 doesn't bond and cure completely, but it took you so long to separate the keel from the bottom of the boat seems to make the case for how well it does work.

Once again I never said such and not sure how you even construed that I did. Again your imagination. I’ve never once said that 5200 doesn’t cure so you’re just wrong. And yes several well known builders have used 5200 to bond cast iron. In fact properly prepped cast iron provides an excellent bonding profile for knife grade polyurethanes since it’s kind of porous.

One last thing DDW has done the engineering holding specs and as he says this product was sold as a construction or structural adhesive for just such applications like hull to deck joints and keels.

Believe it or not I know several first glass builders who have had excellent results thinning 5200 with Xylene and lacquer thinner to make a brushable adhesive for wood applications.

Merry Christmas sorry for the confusion

Rick
 
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30 some years ago I was working at a small yard in Long Beach CA, and we did quite a few keel changes on Santa Cruz 70's. Before trans Pac race's they would change to the down wind keel. We removed all the nuts on one keel and lifted the boat so that the keel was a few inches off the cradle only to find that it had been put on with 5200. Nearly 10,000 pounds hanging in the air with two people beating on it side to side to finally break it loose. 5200 is impressive stuff.
 
The first time I used 5200 was in Tucson putting a new transducer in for the depth finder. I drilled the 2”+ hole and used 5200 to caulk it. We were going to go to Lake Powell in about a week. I would check the 5200 every day and after 4 days it was still not setup. I was getting really worried that it wouldn’t set up before our trip. So I finally sat down and read the directions, hate to do that. It said it need moisture to set up. Well the humidity in Tucson then was less than 7%. So I took some wet rags and wrapped them around the transducer inside and out. Then next day the 5200 was setup. Now whenever I use 5200 I go ahead and wrap the item with wet rags to make sure it goes off.
 
I just re-beded my prop shaft struts and used 4200. Less permanent but I am still hoping I won't have to take them off again.
 

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