1974 Marine Trader Dual Cabin - Keel Drain?

[brianaderer]

Hello All-
I have a 1974 MTDC Trawler. The keel is the cement mixture, filled up to the level of the bilge and most of it is glassed over although I think there are spaces in the front and back where water has been able to get down in over time. My question is whether or not I should install a garboard drain - and does anyone have experience doing it from the outside with a cement filled keel?

Thanks
Brian

 

[Comodave]

I don’t think the drain will do much with the cement filled keel. Are you sure there is water inside the keel cavity? If there is and you are in a freezing area it could do some damage. I wasn’t sure if mine had any water in it or not so I drilled a hole inside on the top of the keel in order to find out. When I drilled a 1/4” hole and pulled the bit out there was a hissing noise. Whether it was air pressure or vacuum I could not tell. So I used a 1” hole saw and opened up a hole to stick a wood dowel down to see if there was any water. No water so I glassed the hole closed.

 

[CharlieO.]

Brian, have you gone any farther on this project?

 

[brianaderer]

Hi Charlie
I havent. Elected last winter just to pump some pink antifreeze down there, run a ceramic bilge heater, and was fine. This spring i plan to do the cutlass bearing which means opening the keel up since the shaft tube runs inside, so we will see at that point how much is in there and if its necessary. Also considering some form of dry bilge system
Brian

 

[CharlieO.]

Thanks Brian, I have evidence of water in the keel and plan on removing a bit of the concrete mixture to glass in a bit of a sump just aft of the forward bulkhead. for the bilge pump to pump from. I plan on doing my best to maintain a dry bilge.

I am just wondering if I should put a drain on the bottom for end of season haulout. That is what led me to your post.

 

[brianaderer]

Thanks Brian, I have evidence of water in the keel and plan on removing a bit of the concrete mixture to glass in a bit of a sump just aft of the forward bulkhead. for the bilge pump to pump from. I plan on doing my best to maintain a dry bilge.

I am just wondering if I should put a drain on the bottom for end of season haulout. That is what led me to your post.

I honestly cant say. It seems to me like the keel in mine is full cement with gravel mixture on top, and fiberglass over that which has failed. I can say for sure that it was sitting with some water in it like that for years in ny state and therefore survived plenty of solid freezes without any heaters. I also am not sure where i would put the drain, particularly if the keel is in fact solid cement. I would install a drain if i knew just where to put it but thats of course the hard part. I dont want to go just randomly drilling holes in the hull. Perhaps when i pull the cutlass bearing housing this spring that will give us more information. Im feeling like probably the best strategy is mitigation. Something like what you describe. Ive seen systems that use sponges to soak up water and then draw it out of the sponges with a pump/tube manifold system. This makes sense to me. Perhaps sink a copper pipe as far down into the gravel as it will go and just draw it out that way. And when i will be laying it down, just dump a few gallons of pink antifreeze down there. They make -100 deg F stuff too its more expensive but that would mis with whatever water is in there and give some peace of mind. Eventually as i am able to get the moisture level in there under control, start to glass over the entrance points. Thats what i am thinking so far. Interested to hear your experiences with it. What YMM is your boat?

 

[CharlieO.]

1977 Marine trader 34dc. We are based out of Bennington. Boat is in Jersey City right now.

 

[CharlieO.]

I honestly cant say. It seems to me like the keel in mine is full cement with gravel mixture on top, and fiberglass over that which has failed.

That's what I'm looking at too. Plan to pull out some of the loose gravel and fiberglass a sump for the bilge. Maybe putting an access plug/small hatch there to check the keel if needed and open at the end of the season. I also want to seal the bottom of the bulkhead to keep bilge water separate from forepeak and add another pump there. Also add another pump to the engine room. Probably add a small one to the laz also.

I'm surprised people run with only one bilge pump and not even a spare onboard.

 

[brianaderer]

1977 Marine trader 34dc. We are based out of Bennington. Boat is in Jersey City right now.

Cool! Mine is the same boat, 1974. How long have you had it? Im in Strarford CT for the winter. Keeping her in the water so not really worried about this. If youre in jersey city, is that liberty landing? Planning to head back up north once the locks reopen?

 

[CharlieO.]

We are about a month into ownership. We are stored on land at Liberty Landing, hopefully launching in March. We were able to assume the slip contract until April 1st. If all goes to plan hope to be on Lake Champlain by Memorial day.

 

[brianaderer]

We are about a month into ownership. We are stored on land at Liberty Landing, hopefully launching in March. We were able to assume the slip contract until April 1st. If all goes to plan hope to be on Lake Champlain by Memorial day.

Great, congrats! Just a heads up - iirc NY state canals - and therefore all the locks - didnt open til mid late may last year. Hows she treating you so far? Any issues? Im about 18 months into what ended up being a pretty complete rebuild/reno

 

[CharlieO.]

Pretty good, nothing unexpected so far. Plan on cutting out fuel tanks and replacing with smaller ones and take care of the keel bilge issue. Then just enjoy while sprucing her up this summer.
Locks are scheduled for a May 20th opening 2022. I've got dockage lined up until May 15th on the lower Hudson.

Thanks!!

 

[brianaderer]

Pretty good, nothing unexpected so far. Plan on cutting out fuel tanks and replacing with smaller ones and take care of the keel bilge issue. Then just enjoy while sprucing her up this summer.
Locks are scheduled for a May 20th opening 2022. I've got dockage lined up until May 15th on the lower Hudson.

Thanks!!

Awesome your experience better than mine so far.. where are you staying on lower hudson?

 

[brianaderer]

Awesome your experience better than mine so far.. where are you staying on lower hudson?

I spent about 3 months this summer at half moon bay. Im their web developer now

 

[CharlieO.]

I know there are still unknowns, we have a plan but still hoping for the best. I did come across your blog and adventures.

I look forward to bringing ours up to a better cruising standard for us. We bought this one to enjoy and learn on then hopefully move up to a bigger boat in the PNW in a few years.

 

[CharlieO.]

I spent about 3 months this summer at half moon bay. Im their web developer now

That's where we booked for April 1st to May 15. Steve got us a great price from a slip owner.

 

[alormaria]

Its not gravel. Its marble chips from a quarry nearby the builder in Taiwan. This is from the Don Miller the importer. I don't think it makes a difference but its classier.



If you have a lot of water trapped in your keel you can find where the water is located by tapping the keel with a plastic hammer or screwdriver head and find where it sounds hollow. Drill into the lowest point of the hollow and then drill at the highest point. Let it drain all winter. I also helped the process with vacuum and compressed air. In the spring pump epoxy into the lower hole until it comes out the higher hole.

 

[CharlieO.]

Its not gravel. Its marble chips from a quarry nearby the builder in Taiwan. This is from the Don Miller the importer. I don't think it makes a difference but its classier.



If you have a lot of water trapped in your keel you can find where the water is located by tapping the keel with a plastic hammer or screwdriver head and find where it sounds hollow. Drill into the lowest point of the hollow and then drill at the highest point. Let it drain all winter. I also helped the process with vacuum and compressed air. In the spring pump epoxy into the lower hole until it comes out the higher hole.

Approximately where did you end up drilling the hole? Did you find a void with a pocket of water and then a drip for the rest of the winter?

Did you also have fiberglass coming up in the bilge?

 

[alormaria]

The holes were about 6" to 10" from the top and the bottom. I did mine in the spring and let the water drain out then blew compressed air into the void from the top and moved the rest of the water out that way. I was doing a lot of work on the keel at the time. The bottom of the rudder aperture was falling apart too so that got cleaned up, epoxied with alternating layers of matte and roving and finally Marine Tex to fair it smooth. I did this repair in 1995 when I had the new fuel tanks put in and rebuilt the aft cabin.


Nothing was wrong with the bilge and still isn't. I'm one of those people who only have one bilge pump. It never needs to run.

 

[CharlieO.]

Thanks Al, don't think I will get to the keel drain this year but I will give it a knock test when I'm back there. Information is good. Removing and replacing fuel tanks and giving the bilge attention are my spring projects.

I'm hoping my bilge pumps never need to run also, but I would feel more comfortable with multiple pumps. My boat made it for forty years on one bilge pump.

 

[jleonard]

I also had to drain the water from a cement filled keel on my Albin.
Boat was on the hard so I dug a hole in the bottom of the keel under where the water was seeping out (by the stern tube) and tapped it to 1/2 NPT.
Immediately the water stopped seeping near the stern tube and drained out the bottom tapped hole.
I let the water drain until it was launch time, then I bought an allen head bronze pipe plug and applied a liberal amount of 5200 on the threads and over the plug.
(It took 3 winters on the hard to drain all the water out, but it finally did stop.)

Once I launched the boat after the initial plugging, I carefully inspected the bilge and found the culprit. The original bilge pump was screwed to the bilge floor and the holes were never caulked. I glassed over the holes, then re-mounted the pump without fastening it to the bilge floor.
That stopped the leak.

 

[CharlieO.]

Thanks Jay,

That is what I am seeing, water still seeping in that area a month after haulout.

Did you just run your tap into fiberglass so the plug just threaded into the fiberglass?

Thanks
Charlie