What's Wrong With This Picture??

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$1.4B is a drop in the bucket, pun intended, and won't make a bit of difference in the end, but thanks for posting that just the same. It supports my point that it's not a priority for anyone. I think boaters as a whole care more about this than most groups and go to great lengths to prevent discharges from our boats. Whether it really accomplishes anything significant is debatable.
 
Hopefully the earmarked money gets spent where it needs to be.

We just went through this locally, not a coastal town but the overflow dumps into a trophy Rainbow Trout stream.
 
$1.4B is a drop in the bucket, pun intended, and won't make a bit of difference in the end, but thanks for posting that just the same. It supports my point that it's not a priority for anyone. I think boaters as a whole care more about this than most groups and go to great lengths to prevent discharges from our boats. Whether it really accomplishes anything significant is debatable.

I was just addressing a line out of post #53..... which was....

"RT, you are spot on. However, as a nation we are signing up for trillions in infrastructure, you'd think a small percentage of that could help local coastal towns deal with the issue."

I think the amounts discussed ARE a small percentage that will help a lot if applied correctly and followed through on. It may even give incentive to spent more and/or find other sources. I don't think any mayor loves the headline of "raw sewage accidently dumped" as most people freak out about polluted water if they think they may swim in it or drink it.

Rarely do I see news connecting sewage spills and boater pollution. Many of the NDZs I would venture are created in areas of dense boating (like Herring Harbor on the Chesapeake (and other small NDZs that are densely boated) , but some are expanded well beyond those small areas. The other two that come to mine is where cruise ships and commercial vessels are often mentioned for their "large amounts dumped" in localized areas or areas like the Florida Keys that have even gray water restrictions due to the sensitive area of the coral.

So while their might be a connection between boaters and municipal spills...the NDZ approval )which often has NOTHING to do with raw sewage dumping....just TREATED sewage dumping that very few small recreational vessels have Type 1 or 2 MSDs.

Americans usually have short memory spans... so even when municipalities overflow, once the water is safe again and some lip service given..... all is forgotten except by the very few. So ANY amount of money in the billions of dollars seem like someone is paying attention, even if only a little.
 
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Sorry to be pessimistic, but if you divide that amount of money up by the # of places that could use help, and it won't even pay for the feasibility studies. Where I live, local beaches get shut down for a couple days because of the bacteria level in the water near the shore, so that should give you an idea of the severity of these spills. However, it's a minor inconvenience for the locals and it's forgotten a day or 2 later when the beaches reopen.
 
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I'm with Comodave. When we bought our Jefferson out in New Jersey, to eliminate any issue with overboard discharge, I cut all overboard waste sanitation lines from both heads and capped them off. I also cut and capped off the discharge from the macerator pump on the holding tank and cut the wires so it can't be energized as well.



It may be 'overkill' to some, but this way I know that there will be nothing that gets out of the boat.
Overkill is a gross overstatement!
 
I believe you are correct about Lake Champlain, but not sure how many actually follow that law. Personally I would not want to permanently remove the overboard discharge capability. In a rare situation where I couldn't get a pumpout and had a full tank, I would risk breaking the overboard discharge law over damaging my holding tank or some other unpleasant result of trying to pump into a full tank. The world won't end from a couple gallons of black water.
And so do many boaters but it is never admitted. How much crap do you think goes in the water from 1,000 pooping manatees who consume 100 pounds of food eah day?
 
I tend to trust Peggie when it comes to marine sanitization systems, not to open an old argument.....


Federal law (33 CFR 159.7) lists the acceptable ways of securing the sanitation system in "no discharge" waters" (note that the acceptable means of securing Type I and II MSDs (treatment devices) are not acceptable means of securing a holding tank (Type III).

(b) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of treated or untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3 or 140.4, the operator must secure each Type I or Type II device in a manner which prevents discharge of treated or untreated sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—

(1) Closing the seacock and removing the handle;

(2) Padlocking the seacock in the closed position;

(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold the seacock in the closed position; or

(4) Locking the door to the space enclosing the toilets with a padlock or door handle key lock.


(c) When operating a vessel on a body of water where the discharge of untreated sewage is prohibited by the Environmental Protection Agency under 40 CFR 140.3, the operator must secure each Type III device in a manner which prevents discharge of sewage. Acceptable methods of securing the device include—

(1) Closing each valve leading to an overboard discharge and removing the handle;

(2) Padlocking each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position; or

(3) Using a non-releasable wire-tie to hold each valve leading to an overboard discharge in the closed position.


All of the above is acceptable on all the Great Lakes in both US and Canadian waters...but NOT on Lake Champlain. NY state marine sanitation law for Champlain requires that there be no plumbing connected to any overboard discharge pump or thru-hull.



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Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since 1987
Wrong. It applies in Lake Champlain as well. Federal law trumps state law every time.
 
Getting rid of the overboard discharge components is a good idea if you boat in inland waters, or don't go far from areas where pump-out stations are common. Longer-range and offshore cruisers typically prefer to preserve that option. Your boat, your call.
Why ever eliminate options. Just keep the valve closed and/or disconnect the overboard pump. Keep it simple guys.
 
Just because the municipality makes a discharge, it is ok for boaters to do the same? It makes all of us look bad. I keep hearing this argument, just because we can’t completely fix a problem we shouldn’t bother to try. No thanks.
That's not the point Dave. Those massive discharges are absorbed by nature. Sometimes, not often, beaches nearby are closed for a day or two but quite soon the pathogens disappear and the water is again quite safe in which to swim. Boaters discharging waste just doesn't matter. Still, I comply but there have been times (rarely) when I was forced to discharge. I would bet a boat unit that more than a mere majority of boaters have illegally pumped overboard at one time or another, perhaps not you, but certainly many others. And don't even get me going about the idiocy of urine not being allowed to be discharged directly but it's okay to take a leak over the rail.
 
Seattle (Puget Sound) just went through this. The State wanted a NDZ, but had to get approval from the EPA. At first they did not. Then a tug boat company filed a law suit, claiming there were no approved commercial pumpouts. Not sure where this is all at. The USCG and others have stated they will not enforce Puget Sound NDZ.







You are correct, NDZ is a federal designation. However, I believe the States can impose stricter laws so long as they don't infringe on the federal law.
Correct. And that is why Vermont and New York cannot impose strciter regulations than that of the CFR.
 
Why ever eliminate options. Just keep the valve closed and/or disconnect the overboard pump. Keep it simple guys.

I agree. I wouldn't eliminate the functionality. The next owner might be able to use it or you may find yourself in a situation where you need to discharge some black water instead of having your tank explode.
 
Thanks Tom. Nicely put. Pretty much same as I was trying to say. Boaters are also seen as wealthy, so we are an easy target. Nobody cares.


In my area a believe rain water from storm drains mixes with waste from homes. I get it that we don't want to dig up every single road and sewer line. But I don't see why the overflow can't be dealt with at the sewage treatment plants. Instead of discharge into the waterways, why cant there be large storage tanks to catch the overflow. Tanks like you see at a fuel depot. If we are willing to try and control the earth's temperature, we can't figure this out?
Simple answer. Because the treament plants do not have the capacity and building plants to handle storm runoff would be a massive undertaking. The fact is that the reason why old East Coast cities discharge millions of gallons of untreated waste every time it rains, Baltimore for example, is because their sewer systems already are plumbed to accept storm runoff. And still, the Chesapeake Bay remains safe for swimming month after month, year after year. Boaters discharging their waste JUST DOESN'T MATTER. And never mind all the cow poop that washes down the Susquehana River from Lancaster County (PA), Amish farm country, from the Amish spreading cow manure on their corn fields. Take a drive through there in January or February. The stink of freshly-spread manure is overpowering.
 
Sorry to be pessimistic, but if you divide that amount of money up by the # of places that could use help, and it won't even pay for the feasibility studies. Where I live, local beaches get shut down for a couple days because of the bacteria level in the water near the shore, so that should give you an idea of the severity of these spills. However, it's a minor inconvenience for the locals and it's forgotten a day or 2 later when the beaches reopen.
Yes, they open in a couple of days, at most, because nature takes care of the problem. So, is it really that much of a problem?
 
:I thought it was pig farms on the Eastern Shore...at least that's one article I read pointed too..... :D
 
Wrong. It applies in Lake Champlain as well. Federal law trumps state law every time.

This is an old debate and I don't want to get into it again, but I researched it in the past and I remember finding something that state laws cannot trump federal laws but they can augment those laws as in the case of Lake Champlain as long as they don't conflict with federal law. If I kept my boat on the lake, I would probably comply. If I was passing through I would use a lockout but not remove the hose.
 
Thanks Tom. Nicely put. Pretty much same as I was trying to say. Boaters are also seen as wealthy, so we are an easy target. Nobody cares.


In my area a believe rain water from storm drains mixes with waste from homes. I get it that we don't want to dig up every single road and sewer line. But I don't see why the overflow can't be dealt with at the sewage treatment plants. Instead of discharge into the waterways, why cant there be large storage tanks to catch the overflow. Tanks like you see at a fuel depot. If we are willing to try and control the earth's temperature, we can't figure this out?

You are right, particularly in "older cities", separating combined sanitary and storm water sewers is prohibitively complex and expensive so increasing the holding capacity to absorb a surge during storm events is a feasible alternative. In Washington DC, they built a giant tunnel 100' deep to hold the runoff until the wastewater treatment facility can catch up, still not cheap but a good alternative:

https://www.dcwater.com/cleanrivers

Focusing on the major contributors to nitrogen and phosphorus pollution is the right approach and fortunately it is being done, it just doesn't get much attention, not sure why it doesn't.
 
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It was reported, in Atlanta, it was less expensive to pay the fine rather than pay to have the sewer repaired properly.

Grosse Pointe Shores had to split the storm and the sewage system
 
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Found this the hard way today. Anyone see what the issue is?
Back on topic for a moment. So the picture in the OP show the off position? Or is that position 1/2 open to both output directions.

I got a kick out of the video explanation, the handle hides where it is not going.
Too bad China could not have made a handle that points to where it does flow.
 
This is an old debate and I don't want to get into it again, but I researched it in the past and I remember finding something that state laws cannot trump federal laws but they can augment those laws as in the case of Lake Champlain as long as they don't conflict with federal law. If I kept my boat on the lake, I would probably comply. If I was passing through I would use a lockout but not remove the hose.
I believe Brian is absolutely correct and has some well founded support.
See post #7 here for a Sea Grant investigation and conclusion of this very subject.
https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63088
In this case the state laws deal how the Fed law is to be accomplished and does not contradict Fed law in any way.
This is one of those things that is clear as grey water!
 
It’s funny how times change, when I was growing up, in s.e. Alaska, there were little outhouses at the ends of the docks.
 
And many boats had straight pipe to a thru-hull right overboard via gravity....barely needed to be pumped.

Glad those days are gone in most marinas.... :D
 
What's nice about Alaska, the charts actually show the 3nm area. Turn the valve, start the macerator and pump out. Easy.
 
What's nice about Alaska, the charts actually show the 3nm area. Turn the valve, start the macerator and pump out. Easy.

Here on the East Coast, not all but some charts show the 3 mile line too..... just depends on the scale.
 

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