Vacuflush trouble shooting

[Vactech]

What you need to do is get yourself a vacuum gauge. Which I call the almighty God when troubleshooting vacuum leaks in the system. Put the Gage coin in the funnel at the toilet and see if you have vacuum loss there. if you do it means the leak is below the toilet .if it holds vacuum, it means it's losing vacuum up in the toilet base somewhere

 

[Vactech]

Just thought I'd chime in here, let you know that night switches will cost you so much more money by using them on vacuflush systems. When your vacuflush system circulates when not in use .
It is telling you that I need help.....
. that's when most economical and right time to take care of what would probably be a very minor issue . . when left to depend on a knight swhich ,you are just setting yourself for a much more expensive repair, when you inevitably and finally doing the repair.

 

[Insequent]

Just thought I'd chime in here, let you know that night switches will cost you so much more money by using them on vacuflush systems. When your vacuflush system circulates when not in use .
It is telling you that I need help.....
. that's when most economical and right time to take care of what would probably be a very minor issue . . when left to depend on a knight swhich ,you are just setting yourself for a much more expensive repair, when you inevitably and finally doing the repair.

I would disagree.

A night switch is a pragmatic solution to a slow and difficult to find vacuum leak. That leak might get worse over time, but will cost the same amount of money to fix as exactly the same parts will be used. Indeed, it is likely to cost less since troubleshooting will be easier and take less hours of an expensive tech guy.

Installing a time delay relay in the night switch circuit is a further enhancement of that concept. On entry to the head the relay is activated via a momentary on button, and an LED indicates the vacuflush has power to it. It will cycle if vacuum is low. On one of my heads that is normally the case, on the other it is seldom the case. The former head has a slow vacuum leak I have not been able to find.

Bt the time you need to flush, there will be vacuum. Then 6 minutes after you first activated the relay, the night switch automatically turns off. If you need more than 6 minutes regularly (you take a magazine to read while on the head, or whatever) then you can program the relay for a longer interval, or press the momentary on button for another 6 minute (or whatever time you have programmed) increment. Either way, when you exit the head the vacuflush will fully cycle and empty the lines etc before the the relay deactivates the power to the vacuflush. With this approach unnecessary cycling during the day is avoided as well as at night.

 

[Vactech]

Well Everyone's entitled to their own opinion but if the system was fixed and brought the proper working condition like it should be normal and proper function switch wouldn't be needed.
I come here to give people my recommendations as I work on vacuflush everyday. I don't come to get into pissing matches like it seems to come to on this site, where am I am here trying to help out people. If some people want to take educated and experienced recommendations that's great ,if not I'm not here to argue with anyone. I have much better ways to spend my time ..cheers

 

[Marco Flamingo]

A night switch is a pragmatic solution to a slow and difficult to find vacuum leak.

It turns out that my night switch performs a slightly different function. As part of a relocation of my inverter, I needed to move the vacuum pump. Since I was moving it, I took it apart to check the duckbills (a bit of mission creep). They looked perfect so I took the cover off of the vacuum sensing switch. Uh, shouldn't it have wires connected to it? Mine didn't.

It looks like the PO simply disconnected it and only used the night switch. I know that the seal on the vacuum sensing switch can also leak, so I thought maybe that is why it was disconnected. I pulled the night switch and counted 30 pumps of the vacuum pump. Then I left the boat for 3 days. Came back today and "pow" it sucked out the standing water like I had just made the vacuum.

I understand that the vacuum switch turns off the system when sufficient vacuum is generated and then (if all is sealed perfectly) the system can hold the vacuum so that the toilet is ready at a moment's notice. But is that instantaneous convenience necessary? I have been using it by pulling the night switch, doing my business, and then letting the pump cycle a bit to clean out the system. In that scenario, I don't care or worry about whether the system can maintain a perfect vacuum over hours or days.

The only issue I can see with manually switching instead of automatic switching is how many cycles should be used (counted, as I can hear my pump) for generating the vacuum. I have been just counting 30. It's not like I have any else to do while sitting.

Is it sort of like having an automatic ice maker for those who are either too busy or lack the ability to twist an ice cube tray?

 

[HeadMistress]

The vacuum pump does TWO things: it pushes the flush to its destination (tank, overboard, treatment device) while it simultaneously restores vacuum to the VF system. The vacuum tank switch has a sensor in it that starts the pump when vacuum is released (toilet is flushed), turns it off when the correct amount of vacuum has been reached. If that's after the pump has gotten the flush all the way to its destination, great. But if it's not, the flush sits in the line between the pump and the tank, thru-hull etc until the pump runs again activated by a new flush.

That can create problems for those who rely on a "night switch" to turn the pump on and off. How can you know whether the flush has reached its destination before you turn it off? How can you be sure the toilet has achieved full vacuum before you turn off the pump? You can't...you can can only rely on guesswork or compensating with overkill, neither of which has proven to be all that reliable. That's why there's a sensor on the vacuum switch. So unless you're psychic, try using the system the way it's designed to be used.

--Peggie

 

[syjos]

Unless you're psychic, try using the system the way it's designed to be used.

--Peggie

Ditto!

 

[Marco Flamingo]

So unless you're psychic, try using the system the way it's designed to be used.

--Peggie

I understand the physics. But, playing devil's advocate, I think that we can all agree that the vacuum switch is not psychic. It simply restores the vacuum. It doesn't gauge whether the pump has gotten the flush all the way to the tank or even out of the bowl. It turns off when vacuum is restored even if the flush has not gotten all the way to the tank. It has no understanding of the size of the flush or the lengths of the lines to the tank.

Right now, I am using just my night switch to build enough vacuum to flush, flush, and then run the pump to take the flush to the tank. I then close the valve and turn off with the night switch after a few more pumps. Run time is based on my evaluation of the size of the flush, the size of the pump, and the length of line. I am relying on physics rather than treating the vacuum switch as psychic.

If I re-connected the vacuum switch (assuming it works), counted the number of pumps it requires to build vacuum before it shuts off (I can hear it), flushed, then counted the number of pumps to restore vacuum and turn off, I would then know the magic numbers (according to the vacuum switch). I could then disconnect the vacuum switch and mimic the magic number using the night switch. But using just the night switch, I could also build less pressure by counting fewer pumps (for #1, for instance). I could still use the magic number or chose to have more control over the system. I'm not convinced that would be harmful.

The shortcoming right now is that the pump does not turn off. The surveyor noted that the system didn't hold a vacuum based on the pump never turning off. Not so, it simply didn't have the vacuum switch in the system. His running the pump for 10 minutes because of no vacuum switch was probably bad for the system. Knowing that the switch is gone and simply counting 10 pumps for #1 and 20 pumps for #2 has solved that.

It likely would be a problem for guests, especially those who can't count. That might be reason enough to re-attach the switch. I remember having issues with guests even using the simple direct pump over heads. I also remember that I counted the number of pumps with that system. Maybe it's a habit.

With the vacuum switch re-connected, the night switch could still be used to fine tune the vacuum switch by those who understand its potential. I could still use my psychic powers without alarming others.

 

[Comodave]

Am I ever glad that I don’t have a VF system...

 

[syjos]

Am I ever glad that I don’t have a VF system...

Vacu Flush denier!

 

[Comodave]

Vacu Flush denier!

My Raritan Marine Elegance doesn’t ever have a vacuum leak, and BTW it has never needed any maintenance. I suppose that at some point I will have to replace a joker valve, but I will never have to spend hours looking for an elusive vacuum leak. So if that makes me a VF denier, then I will happily accept that title.

 

[syjos]

My Raritan Marine Elegance doesn’t ever have a vacuum leak, and BTW it has never needed any maintenance. I suppose that at some point I will have to replace a joker valve, but I will never have to spend hours looking for an elusive vacuum leak. So if that makes me a VF denier, then I will happily accept that title.

The single Vacu Flush on Sandpiper has been in operation for 20 years. Two years as a livaboard.

Have never had a leak, failure or blockage.

I know many happy VF owners. Very few unhappy ones.

Most issues with VF are due to poor installation and/or improper use.

When we were selling and installing marine toilets, most wanted a VF but were unwilling to pay the higher cost and settled for a less expensive toilet. Some DIY'ers felt installation was too complicated and settled for an easier install.

I'm not debating which toilet is better or require less maintenance.

 

[Comodave]

They may be a fine system, but I see so many threads on problems with them though. I would not want to give up the room required for the vacuum generator, too much real estate needed for them. I will stick to my ME. But I understand that some people love their VF.

 

[syjos]

They may be a fine system, but I see so many threads on problems with them though. I would not want to give up the room required for the vacuum generator, too much real estate needed for them. I will stick to my ME. But I understand that some people love their VF.

When have you seen anyone extolling the virtue of any marine toilet on TF spontaneously?

Most threads you see on TF regarding VF are troubleshooting questions.

No one posts; "my Vacu Flush is working great, what am I doing right?"

Most people love their Vac Flush, not "some people" as you state.

The VG4 Vacuum Generator is 21" long 10" wide and 15" tall. There are separate pump and accumulator tank options and a compact vacuum generator available. We've installed VF systems on boats as small as 26'. I can recall 3 boats in 25 years where a VF installation was not possible due to lack of space.

Full disclosure; I am a Dometic Sealand Vacu Flush Dealer.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

No one posts; "my Vacu Flush is working great, what am I doing right?"

Mine is working great, it's just that I know that I'm not doing it right as it was designed. I'm counting 10 or 20 pumps instead of using the "automatic" vacuum sensor. Maybe I should ask the prior owner how many decades he did that. Could be the wave of the future.

 

[Comodave]

When have you seen anyone extolling the virtue of any marine toilet on TF spontaneously?

Most threads you see on TF regarding VF are troubleshooting questions.

No one posts; "my Vacu Flush is working great, what am I doing right?"

Most people love their Vac Flush, not "some people" as you state.

The VG4 Vacuum Generator is 21" long 10" wide and 15" tall. There are separate pump and accumulator tank options and a compact vacuum generator available. We've installed VF systems on boats as small as 26'. I can recall 3 boats in 25 years where a VF installation was not possible due to lack of space.

Full disclosure; I am a Dometic Sealand Vacu Flush Dealer.

I have joined onto threads to spontaneously extoll the ME head several times.

Since you do sell them so I would expect you to be very positive about them. I don’t sell any marine equipment but I do love the ME, as much as anyone can love a head, because it is a simple system that just works.

I absolutely would not want to give up the 21”x10”x15” in my engine room, even if there was that much room to give up.

Since you say that most threads on VF are troubleshooting threads, how many threads do you see on troubleshooting a ME?

Actually how do you know that “most people love their Vac Flush”? Is that even knowable? I do know that some people love them from this forum, there are some who have posted that. But how can you say most people do? Have you done a poll of all VF owners?

I paid about $700 for the ME in our aft head, what does a VF system cost? I was able to easily install my ME, how many owners are able to install a VF system properly on their own? And if they are not able to do their own install, what does a typical install cost to have done? I gave up zero extra space for my ME head, VF requires extra room tor the vacuum generator. Space that I do not have to give up and if there was that extra space I would not want to give it up. So what are the advantages of a VF over a ME?

 

[Alaskan Sea-Duction]

The vacuum pump does TWO things: it pushes the flush to its destination (tank, overboard, treatment device) while it simultaneously restores vacuum to the VF system. The vacuum tank switch has a sensor in it that starts the pump when vacuum is released (toilet is flushed), turns it off when the correct amount of vacuum has been reached. If that's after the pump has gotten the flush all the way to its destination, great. But if it's not, the flush sits in the line between the pump and the tank, thru-hull etc until the pump runs again activated by a new flush.

That can create problems for those who rely on a "night switch" to turn the pump on and off. How can you know whether the flush has reached its destination before you turn it off? How can you be sure the toilet has achieved full vacuum before you turn off the pump? You can't...you can can only rely on guesswork or compensating with overkill, neither of which has proven to be all that reliable. That's why there's a sensor on the vacuum switch. So unless you're psychic, try using the system the way it's designed to be used.

--Peggie

I would also add that by using the over night switch you could damage your system by leaving the switch on too long.

 

[Marco Flamingo]

using the night switch you could damage your system by leaving the switch on too long.

And that's my question. How long is too long? How many times does a VF pump cycle before the vacuum switch shuts it off. Is it 10 times on some installations and 30 on others? Is it 10 on a system without leaks and one can gauge the health of the seals over time when the number of pump cycles increases? Can a manual operation improve efficiency, i.e., the vacuum switch allows the pump to run longer than necessary? Is the switch set for the maximum vacuum when it isn't often needed? Enquiring minds want to know.

Finally, a worthwhile question for a TF poll.

 

[syjos]

I have joined onto threads to spontaneously extoll the ME head several times.

Since you do sell them so I would expect you to be very positive about them. I don’t sell any marine equipment but I do love the ME, as much as anyone can love a head, because it is a simple system that just works.

I absolutely would not want to give up the 21”x10”x15” in my engine room, even if there was that much room to give up.

Since you say that most threads on VF are troubleshooting threads, how many threads do you see on troubleshooting a ME?

Actually how do you know that “most people love their Vac Flush”? Is that even knowable? I do know that some people love them from this forum, there are some who have posted that. But how can you say most people do? Have you done a poll of all VF owners?

I paid about $700 for the ME in our aft head, what does a VF system cost? I was able to easily install my ME, how many owners are able to install a VF system properly on their own? And if they are not able to do their own install, what does a typical install cost to have done? I gave up zero extra space for my ME head, VF requires extra room tor the vacuum generator. Space that I do not have to give up and if there was that extra space I would not want to give it up. So what are the advantages of a VF over a ME?

My experience with VF is regional and my statements pertain to the PNW

Here in the PNW, Vacu Flush is very popular. Many boatbuilders offered them as standard equipment and Marine Sanitation in Seattle has been very successful at marketing them.

The Vacu Flush has been around a long time. Longer than the ME. I'm sure there are more VF's out there than the ME so more issues are experienced. The majority of VF installations are approaching 15 - 20 years and issues are popping up due to the age of the system.

Most issues with newer VF's are improper installation or improper operation.

I've worked shows and conducted VF seminars. A huge number of boaters come up and tell us how much they love their VF. 5 to 10 percent have minor issues which we can solve with a few operational tips. A few where a service call or parts purchase solved the issue.

I sell Rariton, Tecma, MasterFlush, Jabsco etc in addition to VF. We've had no requests to remove a VF and replace with something else. A used VF is rare on CL.

I sell many VF to DIY'ers and offer design and installation support. They are willing to spend the money and time to have a VF. All were successful with the complex installation.

I belong to two Yacht Clubs and for years DJ'ed at YC's. I know a lot of boaters. The theory is you get several boaters together and invariably the conversation will turn to marine heads. And most of these boaters I know can not stop bragging about how well their VF works and how much they like their VF's.

It always amazes me that some of these older systems are still working without any maintenance. People buy used boats and have no idea when and if maintenance was conducted and never question it as long as it works. I've seen 15 to 20 year old systems still working.

I'm not going to compare a VF to a ME. It's like asking which anchor?

I've never disparaged a ME or any other toilet in someone's thread as you do unsolicited.

 

[Comodave]

All good points, but you didn’t answer my questions about the cost of a VF system and the installation costs...

 

[syjos]

All good points, but you didn’t answer my questions about the cost of a VF system and the installation costs...

The Vac Flush is more expensive to purchase and install (at least twice as much) compared to the Marine Elegance, Tecma, Master Flush and others. The only marine toilet more expensive than VF is the Headhunter.

Boatowners around here either drank the VF Kool Aid or see some perceived advantage to the VF in order to pay the higher cost. There is some cachet to having a VF on a boat here in the PNW.

Back in the early 90's, boats were smaller and simpler. Most boats still had manual toilets. An electric toilet like a Jabsco grinder or Rariton PH Electric was considered stepping up.

Along comes Vacu Flush with fresh water flush and easy to use home style toilets. We sold and installed kazillions. High end boatbuilders installed them first but when Meridan/Bayliner started equipping boats with VF, everybody wanted one.

It was the best option for a long time.

Along comes Marine Elegance, Tecma and Masterflush which were less expensive options to VF. The new toilets offered better styling and fresh water kits were options.

Boaters have more options to select from. The VF is still the preferred choice with many boaters here but it's high cost steers buyers to the other toilets.

 

[dz1drwww]

Mine is working great too, but I have the time delay relay Installed. Prior to that it was a nightmare.....it’s a very simple fix that save hours of headaches.

 

[catalinajack]

Twice as much to install a VF!? And it's a space heater to boot!? And it, sooner or later, have problems, difficult problems. Why would anyone choose to have such a system aboard? Why would anyone spend time and money chasing VF problems. The thinking escapes all logic.

The Vac Flush is more expensive to purchase and install (at least twice as much) compared to the Marine Elegance, Tecma, Master Flush and others. The only marine toilet more expensive than VF is the Headhunter.

Boatowners around here either drank the VF Kool Aid or see some perceived advantage to the VF in order to pay the higher cost. There is some cachet to having a VF on a boat here in the PNW.

Back in the early 90's, boats were smaller and simpler. Most boats still had manual toilets. An electric toilet like a Jabsco grinder or Rariton PH Electric was considered stepping up.

Along comes Vacu Flush with fresh water flush and easy to use home style toilets. We sold and installed kazillions. High end boatbuilders installed them first but when Meridan/Bayliner started equipping boats with VF, everybody wanted one.

It was the best option for a long time.

Along comes Marine Elegance, Tecma and Masterflush which were less expensive options to VF. The new toilets offered better styling and fresh water kits were options.

Boaters have more options to select from. The VF is still the preferred choice with many boaters here but it's high cost steers buyers to the other toilets.

 

[syjos]

Twice as much to install a VF!? And it's a space heater to boot!? And it, sooner or later, have problems, difficult problems. Why would anyone choose to have such a system aboard? Why would anyone spend time and money chasing VF problems. The thinking escapes all logic.

All marine toilets will probably have issues when they age, improper use and/or lack of maintenance.

There are thousands of VF toilets on boats so more issues are expected from sheer numbers. VF toilets are approaching the age when they need service. For a couple hundred dollars in parts, the whole system can be rebuilt as when it was new.

As stated earlier, I see 15 to 20 year old VF in operation with absolutely no service performed, ever. Some have replaced Duck Bill as the only maintenance after 10 to 15 years with no operational issues. A properly installed and operated VF can be totally trouble free for a very long time.

We will see in a few years what service is required when ME, Tecmas and Master Flushes reach that age.

Boaters still purchase VF as an upgrade. They must see some advantage to a VF when it is more expensive. Maybe not as many VF sales as 10 - 20 years ago.

Boaters buy VF as a perceived upgrade. Similar to people buying Apple, Bose, expensive watches, latest anchors and other higher priced products when less expensive alternatives are available.

Most VF owners have no issues with VF and extoll their virtues. If someone does not understand why VF owners love their VF, they should not buy and install one.

I'm not sure why people insist on disparaging the VF. It is a perfectly fine toilet.

 

[HeadMistress]

Back in the early 90's, boats were smaller and simpler. Most boats still had manual toilets. An electric toilet like a Jabsco grinder or Rariton PH Electric was considered stepping up.

Along comes Vacu Flush with fresh water flush and easy to use home style toilets. We sold and installed kazillions. High end boatbuilders installed them first but when Meridan/Bayliner started equipping boats with VF, everybody wanted one.

It was the best option for a long time.

Along comes Marine Elegance, Tecma and Masterflush which were less expensive options to VF. The new toilets offered better styling and fresh water kits were options.

Your VacuFlush history time line is a little off. When Mansfield Plumbing introduced it in 1978 (they spun it off, along with their entire marine toilet division, to SeaLand Technology in 1984), it was nothing short of revolutionary and for nearly 20 years the VacuFlush was the "only game in town" if you wanted a toilet that needed less than 1-3 gallons of flush water, could use pressurized fresh water instead of sea water, and drew less than 30-50 amps. It was--and still is--a very good toilet. But by the early 90s, macerating electric toilet technology improvements had made the VacuFlush obsolete. Ed McKiernan, president of SeaLand Technology(now retired) wasn't about to take that lying down and launched a massive ad campaign to build a mystique around it...for at least 3 years (maybe even as long as 5 years) every issue of every boating magazine had at least 3 ads touting as the ONLY toilet for discriminating boat owners for whom price was no object. He cut prices to boat builders to the bone to get 'em to offer it as either standard equipment or the only upgrade to their basic OEM toilets. And it worked: perception became reality for those who "had to have only the best." But because SeaLand's prices and stipulation that installation by anyone other than a "certified" VacuFlush dealer," voided the warranty (driving the cost through the roof!) boat owners began looking for more affordable alternatives, and by then every toilet mfr had several macerating electric models that use no more water than the VacuFlush actually NEEDS (never mind what they claim), draw only 10-15 amps, and also use pressurized fresh flush water...AND is a "no brainer" for landlubber guests to use--all without components scattered all over the boat, and for a lot less than the cost of a VacuFlush.

So I strongly suspect that if you poll the current dedicated VF owners on this forum, you'll find that the vast majority are older folks who've owned them for 15-20 years and either learned how to use and maintain 'em long ago or have come up with an amazing array of work-arounds. While a small percentage of the problems with it can be due to a bad installation, at least 90% of 'em can be laid directly at the feet of newer owners who've just commenced to using it without bothering to gain any real understanding that it's unlike any other system or how it works...which may account for the reason why at least 75% of marine toilet problems are VF problems and which is what prompted me to write my "VacuFLush 101" piece.

-Peggie

 

[Comodave]

I guess that my point is why buy a system that has many more parts, takes up more room, owners have to learn how to live with work arounds and it costs twice as much as a head such as a ME. I spent less that half of the money, I asked but never got an actual cost for the VF, the ME takes up way less room, that is especially valuable on a boat, it doesn’t have seals to leak vacuum and I don’t have to learn to live with it except how to push the flush button. Why go with VF??? It has been said that I am disparaging VF, I don’t see it as a disparagement when I just state the obvious. Disparagement is when you call names, etc. I am just stating facts. Half the cost, less space are actual facts.

 

[syjos]

QUOTE=Comodave;922873] It has been said that I am disparaging VF, I don’t see it as a disparagement when I just state the obvious. Disparagement is when you call names, etc. I am just stating facts. Half the cost, less space are actual facts.[/QUOTE]

Am I ever glad that I don’t have a VF system...

Disparagement is when you state the above on a thread that the OP is asking for VF troubleshotting tips.

If the OP had asked for opinions or recommendation regarding the VF instead, then you can diparage all you want.

 

[Comodave]

Sorry, but if I am the only person on this forum that has expressed an opinion on a topic when someone asked a different question, then I will fall on my sword. However that is not uncommon on the forum. I don’t think saying I am glad I don’t own a system is disparagement. Maybe you see it as different. I didn’t say that the system was junk, that would be disparagement. I just said I was glad I didn’t own one. If you can’t handle that then I am sorry.

 

[syjos]

Sorry, but if I am the only person on this forum that has expressed an opinion on a topic when someone asked a different question, then I will fall on my sword. However that is not uncommon on the forum. I don’t think saying I am glad I don’t own a system is disparagement. Maybe you see it as different. I didn’t say that the system was junk, that would be disparagement. I just said I was glad I didn’t own one. If you can’t handle that then I am sorry.

Apology accepted and unnecessary. I enjoy a good debate.

There are a lot of new boaters joining TF looking for information, knowledge and tips from us seasoned boaters. I see too many on TF disparage a product or brand when the OP's question was aimed at resolving an issue. I am/was guilty of the practice too but have attempted to refrain from disparaging products when the OP is only asking for assistance.

If they ask for a product recommendation, then we provide our opinions based on our personal experience with that product. The new boater can make a choice based on our responses.

These new boaters, hearing us denigrate a product after they asked for troubleshooting assistance, question what they have on their boats and start imagining the worst.

I've had owners of perfectly operating VF toilets contact me to see if they need to replace their toilets because they read that VF toilets were obsolete, required annual maintenance, used too much water, expensive to maintain, leaks a lot etc etc. It would be a good opportunity for me to encourage the doubt and sell them another toilet, but instead, I reassure them and provide a few simple operating tips. And maybe sell them spare parts later.

 

[Toadhall]

Hi Simon

Looking fo some advice on some gear you have on Sandpiper. Did you get that pm I sent about 10 days ago??

Now back to our head thread